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Originally posted by df1
Remove the word "black" and your statement is just as accurate.
Originally posted by Nygdan
In the end, if a person wants to have kids, and the government is doling out support, well, then they're entitled to take the support and keep having kids. Also, what happens if you are a single mom, and poor, and have a kid? You need government help right? BUt what happens if you have another kid? Or three more? Are you worse off than before? I mean, to a good extent, there's no reason to not have mutliple kids when you are already on the bottom rung of the socio-economic ladder, you're not going to slip lower by having more kids. And at the same time, if you have one kid, you're still not going to advance up the ladder. Or even if you have none, you're not necessarily going to advance.
Don't Blame Black Culture
For decades, scholars and opinion makers have been seduced by cultural explanations for economic problems. Recently, comedian Bill Cosby has caught the bug, leading him to inveigh against aspects of black culture he views as intimately linked to problems among African-Americans, from poverty to crime and incarceration.[...]Yes, there are far more opportunities available to black Americans today, but the conclusion that racial discrimination is no longer a serious issue is simply not supported by the evidence.
In two recent studies, Princeton University sociologist Devah Pager showed that young black men who have played by the rules and have no criminal record are much less likely to be offered a job than similar white men. In fact, white men with criminal records had an equal or better chance of being hired than did young black men with no record. [...]Don't think for a nanosecond that we are satisfied with the progress that's been made. Even if black poverty remains low in historical terms, having a quarter of blacks in poverty is a national tragedy. But by creating an erroneous causal link between "bad culture" and black poverty, the "Cosby consensus" prevents the country from recognizing success and building on it to create the economic opportunities that are missing for too many African-Americans.
[...]
The record is clear: When economic opportunities are available to black Americans, they take them. When opportunities are scarce, they fall behind, and culture has very little to do with it.
Mr. Cosby, Stop Blaming the Victim
Cosby’s remarks are not just offering grist for conservative talking heads; they blame the victim, giving credence to the idea that all the problems of poor blacks are self-inflicted. Many employers in a study published by the Brookings Institution, for instance, said that they wouldn’t hire young blacks because they believed they were lazier, more crime-prone and uneducated.
Instead of blaming the victim and encouraging old stereotypes, Cosby should be directing his ire at the root causes and demanding action. Where was he, for example, during the Democratic presidential primary debates? With the arguable exceptions of John Edwards and Howard Dean, the white Democratic presidential candidates were mute on issues such as urban investment, health care for the uninsured, fixing lousy inner-city public schools, racial profiling, affirmative action, the racial disparities in prison sentencing and racially biased drug laws.
Cosby didn’t invent the shopworn stereotype that poor blacks, and indeed the poor in general, are their own worst enemy. And few would deny that there are steps that black Americans should be taking within their own communities to help improve conditions. But Cosby is a recognized and endearing icon, and when he speaks, people listen. In this case, what they heard from him only reinforces negative beliefs about the black poor.
Originally posted by ceci2006
In two recent studies, Princeton University sociologist Devah Pager showed that young black men who have played by the rules and have no criminal record are much less likely to be offered a job than similar white men. In fact, white men with criminal records had an equal or better chance of being hired than did young black men with no record....
Originally posted by ceci2006
The article exposes the fact that racism and privilege is still a factor whether you think it is bs or not.
That is something you can't ignore, especially when there are still workplaces in America that still do not "look like America".
Thank you for the wonderful comments, though. I appreciate your respect.
[edit on 26-1-2007 by ceci2006]
Originally posted by rocknroll
Originally posted by ceci2006
In two recent studies, Princeton University sociologist Devah Pager showed that young black men who have played by the rules and have no criminal record are much less likely to be offered a job than similar white men. In fact, white men with criminal records had an equal or better chance of being hired than did young black men with no record....
BS!
It's all relative.
In two recent studies, Princeton University sociologist Devah Pager showed that young black men who have played by the rules and have no criminal record are much less likely to be offered a job than similar white men. In fact, white men with criminal records had an equal or better chance of being hired than did young black men with no record.
The Mark of Race. Among the findings from Pager’s field experiment, one of the most troubling relates to the impact of race on employment outcomes. Employers for entry-level jobs were just as willing—if not more—to consider a white applicant with a felony conviction than a black applicant with no criminal history.
www.princeton.edu...
Originally posted by jsobecky Employers for entry-level jobs were just as willing--if not more--to consider a white applicant with a felony conviction than a black applicant with no criminal history
Originally quoted by rocknroll
Thanks. That's cool.....but
I really think it has alot ot do with where you live.
Sometimes racism is colloquial.
I was appalled at the way the whites behind the counter treated the black customers (who were acting no different than the white customers). The cashiers (white) would not even make eye contact with the black customers at all. Totally stern, unhappy looks on their faces (almost scowls). I remember thinking, "Wow, this is how the South treats blacks." Guess I might have been stereotyping a bit. It was weird. Something I had never really experienced. But, the average Joe white guy in Baltimore doesn't treat blacks like this. And there's the toss of the coin, some black areas in Baltimore are very dangerous for a white man to tread in, not if he values his life. And other black neighborhoods are totally safe for whites.
Sometimes it seems like racism and discrimination pop up in different pockets, different areas. Some areas don't have it. Some do. Neither of us is perfect. Sometimes it's white against black, sometimes it's black against white..............sometimes we get along fine.
....this "skin thing". If we were all blind and couldn't see the color of eachother's skin, what would we find next to divide?
But, thank you for the in-depth analysis over one small kernel of the larger picture.
The Injustice Bill Cosby Won't See
It's often difficult to point out just how harmful that sentiment is, because most black folk do believe strongly in taking their destiny into their own hands. They believe in hard work and moral decency. They affirm the need for education and personal discipline. When they hear Cosby say that poor black folk should go to work, stay out of jail, raise their children properly and make sure they go to school, they nod their heads in agreement.
But it's one thing to say that personal responsibility is crucial to our survival. It's another to pretend that it's the only thing that matters. The confusion between the two positions is what makes Cosby's blame-the-poor tour so destructive. By convincing poor blacks that their lot in life is purely of their own making, Cosby draws on harsh conservative ideas that overlook the big social factors that continue to reinforce poverty: dramatic shifts in the economy, low wages, chronic underemployment, job and capital flight, downsizing and outsourcing, and crumbling inner-city schools.
None of these can be overcome by the good behavior of poor blacks. As historian Robin D.G. Kelley argues, "All the self-help in the world will not eliminate poverty or create the number of good jobs needed to employ the African American community." Furthermore, Cosby's insistence that race has little to do with the circumstances of the black poor pleases right-wing pundits who believe his denial is a sign of mature black leadership.
Leading in the Wrong Direction
All of this is even more disturbing, given the fact that Jackson is the head of a government agency that is supposed to be working to provide affordable housing to the people that need it the most, many of whom happen to be minorities. How can Jackson do this job with any sort of success if he cannot even see the overt racism and social inequities that plague the United States, and holds no respect for the Civil Rights Movement?
Nowhere can Jackson’s motives be seen clearer than in post-Katrina New Orleans, where HUD, under Jackson’s direction, wants to demolish the city’s four largest public housing units-depriving thousands of poor, mainly African-American families of the right to return to their homes.
As an African-American man of power in the United States, Alphonso Jackson is in a position to create positive change. However, he has made it crystal clear that he has no interest in doing so
The Frowning Face of Compassionate Conservatism
In a speech at the National Press Club lunch on June 17,Mr. Jackson said that in the United States "Rental housing is affordable and plentiful." In making that statement he'd not read the State of the Nation's Housing report issued one week earlier by the Joint Center for Housing Studies of Harvard University. It found that nearly one-third of all households spend 30% or more of their incomes on housing and 13% spend 50% or more. Almost two million households live in units described as severely inadequate. HUD"s own Worst Case Housing Needs says 5.07 million families have worst case housing needs meaning they are very low income, face severe cost or quality problems in their homes and don't receive housing assistance. It says that "worsening shortages of housing affordable and available to extremely-low-income renters. . . . show the underlying gap between demand and supply continues."
According to the National Low Income Housing Coalition, on a national basis, only 43 rental housing units are affordable and available for every 100 extremely low income families who need them. Even if those statistics had been seen by Mr. Jackson, they'd not have troubled him. As he explained in his first appearance before the House Financial Services Committee as Secretary: "being poor is a state of mind." That said, it's really hard to get terribly upset about the fact that those with a bad state of mind don't have nice places to live. They don't need new housing-they need attitude adjustments. Thanks to the Bush administration, that's all they're likely to get.
Originally posted by ceci2006
In the Washington Post, Michael Erik (sic) Dyson critically analyzes "the message" in his article by taking apart Bill Cosby's "blame the poor" tour. Since Jackson's message is similar to Cosby's, it is again appropriate for this thread to post some excerpts for discussion:
The Injustice Bill Cosby Won't See
It's often difficult to point out just how harmful that sentiment is, because most black folk do believe strongly in taking their destiny into their own hands. They believe in hard work and moral decency. They affirm the need for education and personal discipline. When they hear Cosby say that poor black folk should go to work, stay out of jail, raise their children properly and make sure they go to school, they nod their heads in agreement.
But it's one thing to say that personal responsibility is crucial to our survival. It's another to pretend that it's the only thing that matters. The confusion between the two positions is what makes Cosby's blame-the-poor tour so destructive.
By convincing poor blacks that their lot in life is purely of their own making, Cosby draws on harsh conservative ideas that overlook the big social factors that continue to reinforce poverty: dramatic shifts in the economy, low wages, chronic underemployment, job and capital flight, downsizing and outsourcing, and crumbling inner-city schools.
None of these can be overcome by the good behavior of poor blacks. As historian Robin D.G. Kelley argues, "All the self-help in the world will not eliminate poverty or create the number of good jobs needed to employ the African American community." Furthermore, Cosby's insistence that race has little to do with the circumstances of the black poor pleases right-wing pundits who believe his denial is a sign of mature black leadership.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
If you don't agree with Jackson and his message to not blame white people, then are you saying white people are to blame?
A straw man argument is a logical fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent.
...
1. Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.
Wiki
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Actually, his message was not to blame white people, not the system. [/quote
White people = the man
the man = the system
No?
The system keeping black people down is a very real and true issue. That's where the focus needs to be, not on white people.
www.newsmax.com...
Rather than confronting real issues that face blacks, African-American leaders suggest that "it's racism that's stopping everything that we're doing," Jackson said.
"They are in the business of making excuses," he said. "White folks have nothing to do with the fact that seven out of every 10 black children born in this country are born out of wedlock,"
Individual people have nothing to do with another individual's particular problems or status. BUT, "whites", as a sociological class, have created a system that is responsible for the problems that exist today. I think that its a "too fine irrelevancy" to argue over whether its 'whites' or 'not whites, but the system' that is the problem, most of the time.
If we're discusing how to fix the problems, then it becomes more important; we wouldn't fix the problems by 'getting rid of whites', for example. But what black leaders are calling for that? Even Sharpton ain't calling for that, and Jesse Jackson certainly isn't. Those are the guys that
Alphonso Jackson are saying is the problem.
"I never went to school with my brothers and sisters of the lighter hue until I got off to college," Jackson, a lawyer, said. "But I'm sitting here," he said, referring to his cabinet position, which controls a budget of $32 billion a year. "And I'm sitting here because I believe that the American system might not be the panacea, but it's the best system that I've ever been able to live in."
By extension, he is saying that there is no problem. Infact, he is saying that if blacks have been kept down, its simply because of racism amoung whites, not flaws in the system itself.
I mean, if anything, he's saying that blacks aren't being kept down, because the system is fair and fine, and there's not a problem of racism either, so its just that some blacks are incompetent losers, and thats why they are poor. Or that they are theives, who'd rather take welfare that they don't deserve, than work for a living.
By characterizing blacks as victims, making excuses for them, and suggesting that they cannot advance themselves without reliance on the government, black leaders exacerbate the problems that blacks face
So again, he is saying, the only way that things will get better for blacks is if each indivudual picks himself up and becomes successful, and that the system is 'fairly geared' (more or less) torwards that, and that racism in general won't prevent them from doing so.
Rather than confronting real issues that face blacks, African-American leaders suggest that "it's racism that's stopping everything that we're doing," Jackson said.
I have never seen these guys say 'if there wasn't any racism ongoing today, we'd be fine'. When a bunch of cops gun down a black guy for little reason, they note, rather accurately, that racism had a hand in it, even if it was just to make the officers think that blacks by their nature or by their culture, are more dangerous and more of a threat, etc. Thats hardly the same as saying 'blacks live corralled into urban centers because of current racism'. Its a flaw in the system that has resulted in their statistically and demographically being born into the situation, and black leaders want those issues to be addressed and corrected, to make the playing field more level.
"I think in 2006 to say that everything is the fault of our brothers and sisters of the lighter hue is ridiculous."
Black leaders aren't saying this, but they also aren't saying that there are no problems from modern, ongoing racism, let alone the flaws in the system that continue today that were created in the first place by racism.
But what about his message?
His message simply doesn't make sense. 'Don't blame racism for your situation'.
Why? Racism DID result in the situation. And to a degree it does perpetuate it. So it can't be objected to on the grounds that its false. The only other option is that, even though its true, noting this does nothing, and A. Jackson is actually saying that it makes things worse to point this out.
That might be a good reason to not point it out, if it were true, but its not.
When have blacks ever gotten a worse deal by pointing out actual ongoing racism? If a person wants to sit there and say 'you know what, the world is racist, and it doesn't matter what I do, because I am a victim of racism, and will allways be such, so why try to do anything at all anyway', then we'd correctly identify that person as a fool. Racism exists and it is a problem, but its hardly insurmountable, and hardly an excuse to not do anything about it. How many people that are followers of Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton are actually saying 'I am not going to do anthing about the problems that exist'?????? I'd wager that their followers are the least likely people to do nothing. THere's always going to be losers who give up and blame it on 'racism being so strong that I couldn't win if I tried', but having black leaders point out that racism is a huge problem isn't causing that.
jsobecky
They are being born into a live of poverty and neglect, and all that does is perpetuate the cycle of misery
Indeed, so the question arises, why have them? When the europeans came to america, they first used native indians as slaves. BUt they proved unsuitable, they became depressed, got sickly, and didn't reproduce. All slave populations, in fact, in history, have done that. Thats why slaves are usually war captives, like amoung the greeks and the romans. ANd as a result, the populations that were taken into slavery simply died out because of it. But blacks were stronger than that, they didn't say "I am a slave, life is not worth it" and fade away into non exsistence. They persevered and kept their population alive. IF they hadn't, none of the blacks around today would even exist. Life WAS worth it.
So why should blacks now decide not to exist anymore, merely because they are poor?
Discussions such as this, where people who point out the root causes of the problem are castigated.
The root cause goes back to slavery. The US denied them freedom, corralled them into urban centers, and then neglected those centers and allowed them to decay.
Its not the fault of the blacks that they continue to exist. Their non-existence isn't much of a solution to the problem.