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HUD Secretary Speaks Against Black Victimhood

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posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Race is the only topic on ATS where people post their personal beliefs as facts and aren't called out on it.
...
Another instance where you completely mischaracterize what I'm saying.


It wasn't a deliberate mischaracterization. It was a misunderstanding. I misunderstood your meaning. Sorry.



Please, I would like to know your thoughts on what I actually did say...


I don't see people stating their opinions as facts and not getting called on it about race more than about politics, aliens or any other subject. So I don't see this phenomenon that you expressed.



And how exactly do you "know", BH? Please share that with us, how you could "know" the minds of millions of black people.


I'm not claiming to know the minds of millions of black people. I said I know that there are black people that exist that blame their station in life on "white people" because I've seen them, I've heard them, I've read what they say.



I love how you reply to stuff not even directed at you, but when I actually do write, directly to you, you ignore half the post. Why didn't you respond to the part about 'white people' who blame affirmative action for their poverty?


I thought I was within my rights to reply to something you said to someone else in this discussion. I notice you ignored my point.

I don't recall any white people blaming affirmative action for their own poverty. I have heard of white people saying that a less-qualified black person got a job simply because he was black. Yes, I've heard that. That's affirmative action in practice. I've heard white people complain about affirmative action, but never that it caused them to be poor.



Hurt feelings vs no food.


It's not just about hurt feelings! I want black people to be successful, too! My desire to have them take responsibility isn't so my feelings won't be hurt, it's so they can take control of their lives, LET GO OF BLAMING, and move on to success. For themselves. I believe that holding on to that blame is actually keeping them from taking steps to success.

For ALL of us to move out of this racial standoff we seem to be in, we have to let go of the blame and concentrate on ourselves and making our OWN lives what we want them to be instead of pointing the finger.



That's not to say that I don't agree with you, we do need to use better terminology to identify who exactly is at fault here, but that's not what we were talking about, is it?


Well, I was trying to talk about it. I think it's part of the problem. I think it's part of the solution. I think the mindset is very important. But if this thread is only supposed to be about ragging on Jackson, the Bush administration, Congress and the corruption therein and NOT about the meat of what Jackson, Cosby and others said, then I'll take my opinions elsewhere. Because I already know the Bush administration is totally corrupt. It's a waste of my time and energy to talk about that beyond the simple expression of it.

Maybe you're right. Maybe this thread was over days ago. I just didn't see it till I was browsing the Social Issues forum the other day.




posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 02:13 PM
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BH:
I, for one, am not making a claim that it's equal. I'm saying that as long as people draw on the anger and mistreatment of the past as a justification for their position in the present and an excuse for their possibilities for the future, they're going to keep riding the same merry-go-round and never break out and move forward.

Me:
What are you talking about, BH? No disrespect, but I'm tired of white people using the "it happened years ago, get over it" excuse. Black people STILL FACE DISCRIMINATION TODAY!

At least you admit that we aren't equal yet, as they say. Doesn't it make more sense to you that black people in the PRESENT are more upset about discrimination they encounter TODAY as opposed to what their older relatives encountered YESTERDAY? Please don't make it seem like there is no more discrimination in this country. Hell, Europe treats people of African descent better than America.


BH:
This isn't about blame. I expect you to hold them as able and responsible for GETTING OUT of their plight. Regardless how they got there and who put them there. I expect your brothers and sisters to stand up and take responsibility for getting themselves out of the current situation.

Me:
Taurus feces. You make it sound so simple, BH. Blacks in the hood can just leave whenever they want to.
Yeah, right; when the odds are stacked against you high enough to reach the Sears Tower, it still is easy to come up.:


BH, your problem is you don't see how powerful the obstacles are to black people in the inner city. I'll give you a taste: the education system is still designed to hinder blacks. So, blacks don't get an equal opportunity to get a good education. Then, for the blacks who get an education despite this hindrance, the job you'll eventually work at will pay you less because you're black. But, ah well, we should be grateful to be paid less than our "equals," since that's better than being stuck in the hood.


And let's not talk about those who don't make it out. For them, their only option is the criminal job market (deny it, sure. I'd like to see you support a family on 7$ an hour). And, surprise surprise, there's an endless amount of drugs to be sold, thanks to the US govt. AND, the penalty for peddling crack, as opposed to coc aine, is a HUNDRED times (literally) as severe. If you don't get that, consider that coc aine used to be referred to as the "white man's drug" in the hood.


BH:
Are you telling me that black kids are dropping out of high school because of white people? Can someone explain that? Can you explain how it's the white people's fault that 70% of black kids are born to unwed mothers? There's nothing morally wrong with being an unwed mother, but I fail to understand how that can be charged to white people.

And exactly what good does it do to blame white people for the plight of the black man, anyway? How's that working to better the success rate of black people?

Me:
To a certain extent, yes. The educational system, as I said before, STILL hinders blacks. How? A continuation of the "separate but (un)equal" mentality, IMO. Hell, Oprah did a show recently where she compared the opulent facilities of a suburban (white) school with the run-down, bootleg conditions at an inner city (black) school. When your school has 2 computers in the computer lab, how the hell do you expect most of the students to get a decent education?

As for the blame part, I believe it can do some psychological good for blacks. When you try to do the best you can, with whatever your talents, and you REPEATEDLY see the system hold you down, it would be idiotic to blame yourself. Instead, you can say "I'm doing what I can, but it ain't my fault that the Man is holding me down."

Don't believe me? I have family and friends who were great in athletics, but missed out or nearly missed out on going to college after high school because their racist coaches tried to stop them from getting scholarships. (I don't expect any white people to believe this, but it goes with the territory)

You know the real reason I say this guy is full of crap? Well, I'm doing quite well for myself, despite experiencing white people try to hold me down FIRST HAND throughout my life.


[edit on 26-1-2007 by truthseeka]

[edit on 26-1-2007 by truthseeka]



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
It wasn't a deliberate mischaracterization. It was a misunderstanding.

That's okay, BH. And I didn't think it was deliberate. My concern is that sometimes, I say it right/clearly the first time, you don't get it, you proceed to write entire paragraphs telling me I'm wrong, I clarify, you get it, and we move along. I'm tired of it, but I like you. So, in an effort to keep our communications smooth, I would request that, if ever you read one of my posts and think, Wth is HH thinking?, read it again and/or ask for clarification. I wouldn't get mad. I promise.




So I don't see this phenomenon that you expressed

Haven't you noticed a noticeable lack of truly applicable sources? By "truly applicable," I mean those who are experts in the social sciences. I used an example before, that of the posters who actually believe all that 'aliens spawned us' stuff. In that forum, the other posters (and Byrd, whom I love, bc she reminds me of professors I've had) are all over it. They quote academics, provide evidence, ie, discourage ignorance. In this thread, we're debating the thoughts of the Secretary of HUD, not in reference to housing in the US, but in the arena of social studies. People cite preachers, politicians, and others with obvious agendas, either way, as fonts of wisdom. That doesn't seem odd to you?

It seems odd to me.



I'm not claiming to know the minds of millions of black people. I said I know that there are black people that exist that blame their station in life on "white people" because I've seen them, I've heard them, I've read what they say.

I would posit that those people are old and dying out. As you know, for my work, I need to know the opinions of 'the man (and woman) on the street.' I know people, and by 'know,' I mean, they knock on my door and come to my home, who were strippers, drug dealers, drug users, etc. Not once have I ever heard any of the under 50-crowd mention white people as the reason their lives went the way they did. They cite specific issues: poverty, child abuse, etc. So, I wonder where you get your information. Do you mean, when black people are asked specifically about race, they cite 'white people' as the problem? What's the context of these quotes or conversations, or wherever you're getting this information?




I thought I was within my rights to reply to something you said to someone else in this discussion. I notice you ignored my point.

You were within your rights, I just wanted to point that out. Why did I ignore your point? Mostly because I felt you had ignored mine.


I'll attach a response to the end of this reply.




I don't recall any white people blaming affirmative action for their own poverty. I have heard of white people saying that a less-qualified black person got a job simply because he was black. Yes, I've heard that. That's affirmative action in practice. I've heard white people complain about affirmative action, but never that it caused them to be poor.

Whatever. The point is, they're complaining about it. The point is, there are some white people who feel that way. The point is, I don't see white politicians or civil servant or entertainers coming out and making speeches about them.

A question for you, is this an example of the new racism? To unfairly focus on problems in the black community, instead of the problems we're all experiencing? Like drugs, gangs, school violence, bad parenting? Because those appear to be general American problems, not specifically attributable to American blacks. You see what I'm trying to say?

Why don't politicians, or whoever, speak out about all of our problems, instead of focusing only on blacks?

ATS'ers in general seem to think of people like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson as divisive figures in American race relations, but don't you think this Alphonso Jackson, and his ilk, do society a similar disservice by muddying up the conversation, when we really should be looking at what's wrong with almost everything in this country? From our food (see my siggie) to our government.



My desire to have them take responsibility isn't so my feelings won't be hurt, it's so they can take control of their lives, LET GO OF BLAMING, and move on to success.

Well, let me share something with you. Those black people, who think white people are to blame, still have to eat. Did you see when Chris Rock did that skit about the old black guy who hates white people, but will shuffle for them at work? While muttering under his breath about how he hates them? It was only funny because it was absolutely true. (But notice, even he used an old person as an example.)

Those black people aren't the ones hurting. The people who you think are blaming white people realize that there are larger forces at fault. So now, the question is, what are we, the populace, going to do about it?



Well, I was trying to talk about it. I think it's part of the problem. I think it's part of the solution. I think the mindset is very important.

Please. If I didn't think I would be flamed off the board, as appears to be the likely outcome, I would start threads about what is wrong with the mindset of some white people. But we don't do that here at ATS, do we? People devote a single one-sentence gloss-over to centuries of endemic white-on-black racism and go on to spend pages on what's wrong with black people. And then, expect me to ever take them seriously. What do they know? What does Alphonso Jackson know? And, what does Oprah know?

[I mention her bc she claims that the reason she opened her school in S. Africa was that she had visited lots of inner-city schools here in the US, and whenever she asked a kid what they wanted, they gave a reply that she considered frivolous (ie, iPods, sneakers, etc). She concluded, I'm paraphrasing here, that they weren't hungry enough for education. She claimed that in S. Africa, when she asked the kids what they wanted, they responded, books, or uniforms to go to school. I was offended, and countered, that I bet any American kid would give the same answer the black American kid did, and why was she pointing the finger solely at us, America is a consumer-culture, etc.

I recently became acquainted with a young South African man. He is black, and middle-class. He went home for Christmas and when he came back, he said, I'm never taking any gifts home again. When asked why, he responded that he had taken a book home for some male, teenaged relative. When given the gift, the relative exclaimed, why would you give me a book when you're wearing those designer jeans? I would have preferred those!

In conclusion, a lot of times, the people who seem right, simply aren't. Remember that thread about Oprah and think about what she could have to gain by unfairly maligning black American children. I don't know either, but it's certainly something to keep in mind.
]

to be continued...



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 02:43 PM
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Then why does it matter that he was black? This is a double standard. If Jackson's decision was politically motivated, it wouldn't matter what race the man was, but highlighting 'Especially when he turned the brother down' indicates that you think he should have accepted this brother because he was black, regardless of the politics involved.

Nonono, I guess there was some unwritten conversation there. What I meant, and I believe Ceci did too, was that, IF he was going to give out contracts based on ANY personal bias, you would think that he would give one to 'the brother.' (Incidentally, I believe that's why Ceci used that term, to emphasize that line of thinking.) The fact that he didn't goes further to prove the point that he's totally in Bush's pocket.

None of this is to say that I advocate any type of race-based bias in government, at any time.



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 03:11 PM
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Thank you truthseeka and HH for saying what needs to be said. I agree whole-heartedly with what you both posted. After all, the problem has to be brought back to two points:

1)Alphonso Jackson possesses problematic issues on his own right and career. His list of corruption alone conveys that he should not be trusted to tell anyone anything let alone tell his own community what they should do. As far as I'm concerned, his words go in one ear and out the other because he is parrotting especially what the neo-cons tell him.

2)Secondly, this thread, I gather, is not about blaming white people at all. It is supposed to be a message to the Black community by a flawed man. This flawed man should not be giving advice until he cleans his own house. Otherwise, this topic is not about Shelby Steele, Bill Cosby, or the other various people trying to tell the Black community what to do. The topic solely rests on Alphonso Jackson.

Aw heck, I'll add a third:

3)This is about how some who have sat at the table of privilege want to openly penalize people of color without recognizing the history of race-relations that goes into how people have to work with the system in this country. It is terrible that people still skirt this issue while finger-wagging.


And then....there is this:


Orginally quoted by FlyersFan

Unfortunately, the minority culture uses 'blaming' as an ideology.

Or .. I should say ... SOME in the minority culture use blaming.


Is that why you posted this thread?

By the way, my dear, I vicariously share my father's laughter.


[edit on 26-1-2007 by ceci2006]



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by truthseeka
your problem is you don't see how powerful the obstacles are to black people in the inner city.


What about the obstacles that black people place upon themselves?

What about the black kids who do well in school being ridiculed by other black students because doing well means 'you are white'? (I recently saw an interview with Will Smith on TV and he talked about this. He did well in school and got picked on by other black kids so he had to 'tone down' how well he was doing so they would consider him 'black'. )

What about black men creating babies .. and then abandoning them which just continues the cycle?

What about black on black crime? If life is already so bad because of 'whitey' then why do black people continue to beat on each other so badly?


the education system is still designed to hinder blacks.


Black culture is designed to hinder blacks. Blame everyone else and not look at the shortcomings of your own decisions... Anger and 'blame the white man' rhythmically pounded into the brains of youth day after day after day (rap) brainwashing and indoctrinating them ...


there's an endless amount of drugs to be sold, thanks to the US govt.


Excuse me??
How's that?


When your school has 2 computers in the computer lab, how the hell do you expect most of the students to get a decent education?


How can computers be put into inner city schools when the schools themselves are continually vandalized and computers are stolen (by minority students)?



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 03:17 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
It is terrible that people still skirt this issue while finger-wagging.

Isn't that what black people who 'blame whitey' are doing? Skirting the issues of what is wrong with their own black culture all the while finger-wagging at white people? Yes.


I vicariously share my father's laughter.


I have no idea what that means.

Don't bother explaining it. I'm sure it's off topic and I wouldn't care anyways.



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 03:20 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
And then....there is this:

Orginally quoted by FlyersFan
Unfortunately, the minority culture uses 'blaming' as an ideology.
Or .. I should say ... SOME in the minority culture use blaming.



Yes. And I posted it in direct response to YOUR post, which was this -


Originally posted by ceci2006
To me, calling the dominant culture out on their wrongdoing is not fingerpointing. .....
Unfortunately, the dominant culture uses "blaming" as a ideology.



df1

posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 03:24 PM
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What is this thread about?

Is it the criticize Alphonso Jackson thread?

Is it the discuss Jackson's comments on victimhood thread?

Is it a black versus white thread?

Let me know, because I don't want to stray off topic.



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 03:24 PM
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Originally quoted by FlyersFan

Yes. And I posted it in direct response to YOUR post.


[*shrugs* and *yawns*]

Whatever. I'm glad you were able to get it out of your system.


Otherwise, I will be very excited to hear what else people have to say about Mr. Jackson's words, for being such a flawed figure.


[edit on 26-1-2007 by ceci2006]



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 03:26 PM
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Originally posted by truthseeka
I'm tired of white people using the "it happened years ago, get over it" excuse.


You're putting words in my mouth and totally misunderstanding my message. Read what I said again:

...as long as people draw on the anger and mistreatment of the past as a justification for their position in the present and an excuse for their possibilities for the future, they're going to keep riding the same merry-go-round and never break out and move forward. I said absolutely NOTHING about "it happened years ago, get over it".

You know, when you put something in quotes like that, it implies I actually said it. I didn't.

In other words, as long as people say 'I'm poor and I'm never going to be able to get anywhere because of the white man', they're not going to move forward. I didn't say anything more than that.



Please don't make it seem like there is no more discrimination in this country.


I didn't. I'm not and I never have.

And because the rest of your post makes so many assumptions about my beliefs, it's really hard to answer it. You have taken everything I've said and turned it around and I'm just not interested in saying it all again. I've been there before and it only leads to anger and resentment. You're not going to hear me with all the preconceived ideas you have about me. Sorry.




BH, your problem is you don't see how powerful the obstacles are to black people in the inner city.


Is that my problem?



When your school has 2 computers in the computer lab, how the hell do you expect most of the students to get a decent education?


My school didn't have a single computer and I managed to get a GREAT education. I guess it's because I'm white.



racist coaches tried to stop them from getting scholarships.


Yeah, we all know how hard it is for black people to get into sports these days. It's a shame.



Well, I'm doing quite well for myself, despite experiencing white people try to hold me down FIRST HAND throughout my life.


How in the world did you manage to get through the white people?



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
[*shrugs* and *yawns*]
Whatever. I'm glad you were able to get it out of your system.

Otherwise, I will be very excited to hear what else people have to say about Mr. Jackson's words, for being such a flawed figure.


Passive/aggressive off topic 'hit and run' personal comment.
Get on topic Ceci.



Originally posted by df1
What is this thread about?


Alphonso Jackson. His comments on black victimhood.

HH asked what the purpose was and I posted that it is important to know what people in positions of power stand for ... no matter if we agree with them or not, we should know what they say/do ... and why.

edited for spelling (once)

[edit on 1/26/2007 by FlyersFan]



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 03:38 PM
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Originally quoted by FlyersFan


Passive/aggressive off topic 'hit and run' personal comment.
Get on topic Ceci.


[*shrugs* and *yawns* once again]

I thought I was until you decided to answer me.




I have no idea what that means.

Don't bother explaining it. I'm sure it's off topic and I wouldn't care anyways.


I'm sure you don't. But others of us have very long memories.



But, nevermind. It's nice to gain a little bit of control. And Alphoso Jackson, of course, is sent to do just that for his Bush handlers. It's also exciting to see that people were able to cut through his puffery to see the real issue.

And as I reiterated from my last post, I will love to read what HH, truthseeka and others have to say on this matter. This has turned into a lively discussion.


[edit on 26-1-2007 by ceci2006]



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 04:06 PM
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The issue of 'victimhood' is a complex one, similar to the idea that affirmative action hurts blacks because it makes people think 'you're only advancing because you are being given government support'.

I think that to a degree the answer to either thing is the same, blacks are suppressed in the US, both intentionally AND sociologicall/demographically/unintentionally. For the guy responsible for Housing and Urban Development to not be more concerned with that than the dangers of 'victimhood' is rather disturbing.

I mean, he is saying that blacks shouldn't focus on claiming that the system is keeping them down, but the system IS keeping them down.


I mean, MLK's widow recently died. Thats how short the time spans are here. If he wasn't assasinated when he was, he'd probably be alive today (well, he wouldn't just been assasinated at a later date, but still). Its ASTOUNDING to think that the young adults of today were raised by the generation that had to actually decide if blacks should have civil rights. We've got many many generations of legalized suppression and domination that has been built up, its going to take a few generations for it to be undone, and thats ONLY is we actively work to undo it.

What did Chapelle say, 'having someone say "he's affirmative action hire" is a helluva lot better than someone saying 'look at that homeless black dude".

The HUD director should be focused on his job, not worrying about esoteric social issues. His opinions are interesting, and they show that there is awareness in the black community that affirmative action and the like have drawbacks, but still, he'd seem a helluva lot more sincere if he had actually accomplished something worthwhile in his tenure.

Also, notice that he is attacking popular black leaders. I don't particularly trust Jackson, and Sharpton is a pure buffoon, but it seems that the HUD directors' statements are political, he wants to undercut the few, and not very good, blacks leaders that there are.





Originally posted by FlyersFan
It is wrong if you can't afford it. If you can't afford kids .. don't have 'em. If you don't have help raising them .. don't have them. (at least that's what I think)

ON this, I have to wonder at it though. On the one hand, yeah, it makes a helluva lot of sense, why bring up kids in a situation where there are so poor and dependant upon the govnerment, etc etc. But, at the same time, if the slaves had done that, there wouldn't even BE blacks in the US today.

In the end, if a person wants to have kids, and the government is doling out support, well, then they're entitled to take the support and keep having kids. Also, what happens if you are a single mom, and poor, and have a kid? You need government help right? BUt what happens if you have another kid? Or three more? Are you worse off than before? I mean, to a good extent, there's no reason to not have mutliple kids when you are already on the bottom rung of the socio-economic ladder, you're not going to slip lower by having more kids. And at the same time, if you have one kid, you're still not going to advance up the ladder. Or even if you have none, you're not necessarily going to advance.



hh
That sounds like a pro-eugenics argument... a little scary, if you ask me

I think we can ALL agree that FlyersFan isn't the type of person to favour eugenics or racism or anything like that.

Whenever Sharpton takes a breath, people dredge up Tawana Brawley, like, out of a time capsule.

I usually think of him walking aroudn in a pimp hat and selling crack, but there's that too!



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I would request that, if ever you read one of my posts and think, Wth is HH thinking?, read it again and/or ask for clarification.


Will do.



In this thread, we're debating the thoughts of the Secretary of HUD, not in reference to housing in the US, but in the arena of social studies.


I'm not debating what he said because he's SoHUD. I'm debating what he said because I think it has some merit. You know from reading my posts that I have always felt this way.

The subject (regardless of who said it) is Black Victimization. I'm not saying that's the only problem, I'm not saying racism doesn't exist, I'm not blaming black people for how they're treated in this country or any of that other crap.

I'm simply saying that even though many black people are victims of institutional and cultural racism, there is something they can do. It won't fix all the problems, it won't solve racism, it won't change the white racist's mind, but it just might help SOME of those less fortunate, poor black people to get through in spite of the situation.



As you know, for my work,


I'm so curious to hear more about this




Not once have I ever heard any of the under 50-crowd mention white people as the reason their lives went the way they did.


That's cool. And to be honest, it's been a long time since I've heard it to any great degree. I'm glad to hear that it's not a prevalent mindset anymore.



A question for you, is this an example of the new racism? To unfairly focus on problems in the black community, instead of the problems we're all experiencing? Like drugs, gangs, school violence, bad parenting? Because those appear to be general American problems, not specifically attributable to American blacks. You see what I'm trying to say?


I totally see what you're trying to say (I think). I've been saying that same thing all along. We ALL have these problems. These aren't just 'black problems'. And they're for all of us to solve. I just get the impression sometimes that some black people think they're having these problems because of racism when really we ALL have them. If black people have drug, violence and gang problems because of racism, how do we explain the fact that white people have these problems, too?



Why don't politicians, or whoever, speak out about all of our problems, instead of focusing only on blacks?


I think because many times black people themselves say that these are 'black problems' (brought on by white racism).

Hey, I'm all too happy to discuss these issues as problems of the poor and disadvantaged and NOT 'black problems'. That's what I've been saying. These aren't black problems fostered by whites. They're problems poor people have as a result of the disappearance of the middle class.



don't you think this Alphonso Jackson, and his ilk, do society a similar disservice by muddying up the conversation, when we really should be looking at what's wrong with almost everything in this country? From our food (see my siggie) to our government.


Yes. Absolutely. But since he said it, I thought we could talk about it.



So now, the question is, what are we, the populace, going to do about it?


I don't know what to do about it. I can't do anything about it. As I said, I vote accordingly and write my congressmen, but I don't make policy, I don't hire and fire. I'm pretty powerless here.

But I'll tell you what. Being a woman who went to work in the 80s, I know something about unfair treatment in the workplace. Being a victim of rape and sexual assault in the workplace, I know what it's like to be 'kept down'. I know what it's like to have to work twice as hard for half the pay.

I also know how much good it does to blame other people (men) for it. I know how much more effective it is to take responsibility for my situation and do my very best to make it different instead of giving up or blaming or crabbing about it.



Please. If I didn't think I would be flamed off the board, as appears to be the likely outcome, I would start threads about what is wrong with the mindset of some white people.


I don't know. You have great debating skills and you know not to take things personally and you don't attack people. If you start by saying, "You know what's wrong with white people"? you'll probably get a few flames. But if you think white people generally have a mindset that you'd like to explore, I'd be willing to be open-minded about it.



People devote a single one-sentence gloss-over to centuries of endemic white-on-black racism and go on to spend pages on what's wrong with black people.


You're right. It's easy for us to talk about what we see as problems with the black community. That's because it's "an issue". There's an issue of black inner-city kids. It's a problem. What are we supposed to say? Here's what's wrong with the white suburan families?

You don't see threads or studies or social programs geared toward white suburban families. The reason you get people saying "here's what's wrong with black people" is because we're talking about black people.
There are going to be all points of view expressed. Some are going to be positive, some aren't.



She claimed that in S. Africa, when she asked the kids what they wanted, they responded, books, or uniforms to go to school. I was offended, and countered, that I bet any American kid would give the same answer the black American kid did, and why was she pointing the finger solely at us, America is a consumer-culture, etc.


Oprah was looking for some black people to help. She wanted to help her own race. And I know you think that's a good thing. So, when she asked American blacks, she got one answer. Sure the white kids would have said the same thing, but she doesn't care. She wanted to help blacks.


Originally posted by HarlemHottie
IF he was going to give out contracts based on ANY personal bias, you would think that he would give one to 'the brother.'


Got it!
Thanks for the explanation.



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 04:22 PM
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For once, Ngydan, I agree with everything you said. You surprise me sometimes.



Originally posted by Nygdan
I think we can ALL agree that FlyersFan isn't the type of person to favour eugenics or racism or anything like that.

Well, I don't know FF that well, which is why I asked.



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by df1
Is it the discuss Jackson's comments on victimhood thread?


I thought it was this one, but honestly, I don't know anymore.


Great post, Nygdan!


Originally posted by Nygdan
I mean, he is saying that blacks shouldn't focus on claiming that the system is keeping them down, but the system IS keeping them down.


Actually, his message was not to blame white people, not the system. This is why I got off on my rant. The system keeping black people down is a very real and true issue. That's where the focus needs to be, not on white people. Read the article again. He's saying blacks shouldn't blame whites, not the system. Hell, I blame the system. Not only for where many poor blacks are but poor whites as well.



Rather than confronting real issues that face blacks, African-American leaders suggest that "it's racism that's stopping everything that we're doing," Jackson said.
...
"White folks have nothing to do with the fact that seven out of every 10 black children born in this country are born out of wedlock," Jackson said. Nor do they have anything to do "with that fact that we have more black males in prison than we do in college."
...
"I think in 2006 to say that everything is the fault of our brothers and sisters of the lighter hue is ridiculous."




We've got many many generations of legalized suppression and domination that has been built up, its going to take a few generations for it to be undone, and thats ONLY is we actively work to undo it.


Very true. This is taking time, must take time, and the sooner, the better!


df1

posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The system keeping black people down is a very real and true issue.

Remove the word "black" and your statement is just as accurate.

By nature I'm more than willing to fight ideas & practices that keep people down, however I am not willing to fight the system in order to elevate the interests of one group over another. This notion of giving special treatment to particular groups is a government/corporate conspiracy to keep us splintered and bickering between each other rather than focusing our attention on things that keep everyone down.
.



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 07:39 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Its ASTOUNDING to think that the young adults of today were raised by the generation that had to actually decide if blacks should have civil rights.


"had to" being a key element in that sentence.



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 08:14 PM
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Originally quoted by Nygdan

The issue of 'victimhood' is a complex one, similar to the idea that affirmative action hurts blacks because it makes people think 'you're only advancing because you are being given government support'.

I think that to a degree the answer to either thing is the same, blacks are suppressed in the US, both intentionally AND sociologicall/demographically/unintentionally. For the guy responsible for Housing and Urban Development to not be more concerned with that than the dangers of 'victimhood' is rather disturbing.

I mean, he is saying that blacks shouldn't focus on claiming that the system is keeping them down, but the system IS keeping them down.


Very well said. This is what a few of us in this thread were trying to articulate. The articles I posted pretty much said that Mr. Jackson was placed into the HUD top seat for reasons other than his actual job. I would very much like to reiterate that he should not tell anyone anything until he cleans his own house--which is very messy right now.



I mean, MLK's widow recently died. Thats how short the time spans are here. If he wasn't assasinated when he was, he'd probably be alive today (well, he wouldn't just been assasinated at a later date, but still). Its ASTOUNDING to think that the young adults of today were raised by the generation that had to actually decide if blacks should have civil rights. We've got many many generations of legalized suppression and domination that has been built up, its going to take a few generations for it to be undone, and thats ONLY is we actively work to undo it.


Exactly. That is what I wrote previously in the thread. In order for true justice to begin, we all have to look back at the residue left over from past eras in American history. It is not so easy to tell a group of people what to do when the system has not necessarily treated them well.

That is why social and racial privilege in society must be examined--especially when some groups receive all the benefits while others lag behind. Furthermore, one has to look at how the issue of privilege affects the disaffected.

This is not about victimization. This is also not about finding the appropriate leader or person to "tell Black people what to do". First, those from a "privileged" view must treat Black people as autonomous individuals with cognitive skills on their own right. Black people can think and act on their own without anyone telling them what to do.

There is the biased mindset that Black people can't function on their own and need someone to lead them. It continues to convey the Slave Era-like mentality of having a Master or Mistress tell them what to do. That is why this type of thinking must be stopped.

However, every group needs their role models for advisement.

And in Mr. Jackson's case, he does not deserve to be one--especially when he is embroiled in corruption. Imho, he does not deserve to be even honored with the monniker of "leader" because his behavior sets a bad example for the youth of society--especially when it comes to rewarding others simply because they believe in a particular ideology. His manner and actions are not egalitarian, not in the least.


The HUD director should be focused on his job, not worrying about esoteric social issues. His opinions are interesting, and they show that there is awareness in the black community that affirmative action and the like have drawbacks, but still, he'd seem a helluva lot more sincere if he had actually accomplished something worthwhile in his tenure.


I agree. But, realize the civil rights era and the legislation brought about from it has only had to work on a couple of generations. It is rather disturbing to me that people are upset after four decades. They haven't adequately let enough time to pass in order to study its influences, let alone how it might benefit, say, a few generations down the line.


Also, notice that he is attacking popular black leaders. I don't particularly trust Jackson, and Sharpton is a pure buffoon, but it seems that the HUD directors' statements are political, he wants to undercut the few, and not very good, blacks leaders that there are.


Beautifully put. There are role models in the black community who have demonstrated their worthiness to be heard. Instead, Mr. Jackson sounds as if, because of his position, he should be the sole black leader--simply because he is playing into assimilationist and dominant cultural values. The main point is that he is repeating the same old tripe as his handlers without really taking a look at his message. That makes him just as bad as others (such as Tony Snow) who had cluelessly repeated the same old thing without any insight into the deeper problems of society.


I think we can ALL agree that FlyersFan isn't the type of person to favour eugenics or racism or anything like that.


I will simply smile and subscribe to the ATS tenet, "Courtesy is Manditory".


[edit on 26-1-2007 by ceci2006]



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