WTC fires that burned for 100 days

Originally posted by crowpruitt

And you still believe the FDNY was in on it?

I never said they were in on it,I meerly stated I believed their jobs may have been threatened if they didn't support the official story that is all.Don't you think the government is capable of something like this?

If you LIE or withhold the truth... you are IN ON IT. And no, I don't think you can shut up hundreds of Firemem, Policemen, EMT's...etc...

Originally posted by CameronFox

Originally posted by crowpruitt

And you still believe the FDNY was in on it?

I never said they were in on it,I meerly stated I believed their jobs may have been threatened if they didn't support the official story that is all.Don't you think the government is capable of something like this?

If you LIE or withhold the truth... you are IN ON IT. And no, I don't think you can shut up hundreds of Firemem, Policemen, EMT's...etc...

CameronFox - Go to Ground Zero, talk with people who were there on that day, go and talk with police officers and firefighters yourself and ask them what they think about 9|11, and there is a LARGE majority who feel that the government directly played a role in that day's events.

I don't care if you believe me or not but I know enough people in the truth movement who are at GZ on a daily basis and have spoken with first responders, rescue workers, FDNY, and NYPD who all feel similar about the government's complicity in those day's events.

It's very easy for you to sit here and call the kettle black when it comes to alot of the issues on "complicity" among the FDNY and NYPD, but there is a vast majority who feel the government WAS involved in 9|11.

Take a trip to NYC and GZ and ask yourself - you'll see.

Better yet Cameron there is a retired police officer who was there that day he goes by BufordNY.(I am in no way speaking for him by the way)He is a member here at ATS.Ask him what he thinks about 9/11 .

[edit on 8-1-2007 by crowpruitt]

You have proof to back that statement up? Where YOU there? Well, as I have stated several times my brother was at Ground Zero for a few weeks as a grief counselor. He is a firefighter...he WAS there...he spoke with them. Not ONE firefighter or policeman ever expressed ANYTHING to him in regards to it begin an INSIDE job. You however need to back up your "majority" claim.



EDIT: By my statement, I can not assume that EVERY firefighter believes the offical report. I am sure there are several that do not.


[edit on 8-1-2007 by CameronFox]

What kind of proof can I give you? Yes, I've been to GZ numerous times. I talk with many members of NY 9|11 Truth who have talked with Commanders in FDNY, Lieutenants in NYPD who all feel the government was complicit with the attacks.

In fact, there is video footage and/or MP3 soundbytes on different 9|11 Truth websites that have actual firefighters who believe in the government complicity aspect of things.

And yes, I have been at GZ where there have been NYPD officers who applaud us with what we are doing but are strict with where we are able to pass out literature, etcetera becuase its their job. There's not much proof I can give you of this rather than my word - look at my posts on this board in the past and you'll see I'm not one to BS, I'm straight forward.

Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 8/1/2007 by Mirthful Me]

What kind of proof can I give you? Yes, I've been to GZ numerous times. I talk with many members of NY 9|11 Truth who have talked with Commanders in FDNY, Lieutenants in NYPD who all feel the government was complicit with the attacks.

In fact, there is video footage and/or MP3 soundbytes on different 9|11 Truth websites that have actual firefighters who believe in the government complicity aspect of things.

And yes, I have been at GZ where there have been NYPD officers who applaud us with what we are doing but are strict with where we are able to pass out literature, etcetera becuase its their job. There's not much proof I can give you of this rather than my word - look at my posts on this board in the past and you'll see I'm not one to BS, I'm straight forward.

and there is a LARGE majority who feel that the government directly played a role in that day's events.

I'm not saying that you are B.S-ing at all...you seem pretty genuine in your posts.... I just think you made quite a leap in your "Large Majority" post.

Originally posted by CameronFox

What kind of proof can I give you? Yes, I've been to GZ numerous times. I talk with many members of NY 9|11 Truth who have talked with Commanders in FDNY, Lieutenants in NYPD who all feel the government was complicit with the attacks.

In fact, there is video footage and/or MP3 soundbytes on different 9|11 Truth websites that have actual firefighters who believe in the government complicity aspect of things.

And yes, I have been at GZ where there have been NYPD officers who applaud us with what we are doing but are strict with where we are able to pass out literature, etcetera becuase its their job. There's not much proof I can give you of this rather than my word - look at my posts on this board in the past and you'll see I'm not one to BS, I'm straight forward.

and there is a LARGE majority who feel that the government directly played a role in that day's events.

I'm not saying that you are B.S-ing at all...you seem pretty genuine in your posts.... I just think you made quite a leap in your "Large Majority" post.

I forgot how nitpicky everyone is with wording on these boards....

I want you to do something for me, CameronFox, if you can. Go to GZ sometime when you can get a chance, and talk with the officers just in that vicinity. Head over to Ladder 10 (firehouse closest to WTC site, where the bronze memorial to the rescue squadrons is from the Naudea brother's documentary), and just talk to them. And ask them if they feel that the government was complicit with what happened that day. Do a random sample, and tell me that there isn't a vast majority who have a lot of questions that deserve to be answered.

I went to GZ back in March 06' and talked to a few firefighters. I didn't grill them about 911, it was mostly small talk as I come from generations of Firefighters and our conversations were mostly about family stuff. ( as I have mentioned) We did however touch on 911 and what I got from a lot of them was what Bush knew and what he didn't know. None of them mentioned a controlled demolition ( that does not mean they were NOT thinking that) They were curious about the 911 Commision as am I.

I'm not planning on going back anytime soon, as I was on business when I did visit.

Yeah -

I'm all about the truth movement, but if you follow my posts, I try really hard not to conclude with any of the theories. All I know is that there is alot of fishy things going on which I am doing my own investigating on.

But keep discussing because I enjoy refuting the things you say as we are both mature about things!

I agree Truth.... Although I don't agree with much of what is posted in here, I do feel that this administration at LEAST knew "something" was going to happen. I just wish more pressure was put on Bush & Co. about what he DIDNT do...not what people theorize what he did do. Simple questions I want answers for and I know I will never get:

1. Why did Bush only agree to be questioned by the 911 commision with Cheney present.
2. Why did Bush allow only MINIMUM time and FUNDS for the 911 Investigation. ( it was only after pressure from the victims famililies that he asked congress for more money ..and time.
3. Why was Kissinger asked to be chairman of the 911 Commission, and why did he resign after the Jersey 4 questioned him?
4. I also "believe" that flight 93 was shot down. No evidence mind you, just a feeling. BUT..i can't say it was wrong to do it at the time. We were a nation that just got sucker punched, we needed a good hero story like "Lets Roll".

What would really help any case at all regarding secondary devices would be to get a hold of all of the firefighters, NYPD's, resucie workers who had been running from the building & had done interviews on television regarding explosions taking place.

To my knowledge, I am unaware of any major cases where there firefighters have been contacted. If they were to come forward, it could really help solve/eliminate some of the first-hand accounts of these explosions.

Originally posted by TruthSeekerMP
What would really help any case at all regarding secondary devices would be to get a hold of all of the firefighters, NYPD's, resucie workers who had been running from the building & had done interviews on television regarding explosions taking place.

To my knowledge, I am unaware of any major cases where there firefighters have been contacted. If they were to come forward, it could really help solve/eliminate some of the first-hand accounts of these explosions.

Hi Truth, explosions do not mean bombs. Please remember that there are SEVERAL explinations as to what the explosions were. Not ONLY bombs or some type of secondary charge.

In the past, I have posted different videos (with sound) that show transformer explosions, cranes that collapse, and others. These all make VERY LOUD explosions (or sounds like them) DO they sound like bombs? Well, compare them some time and judge for yourself.

Also, there are several atricles where Firemen were interviewed where they talk about what happened that day.

Fire Engineering magazine, 10/2002 Has a great interview with Chief of Operations Daniel Nigro who was in charge of the evacuation of WTC7 prior to its collapse. (or CD) I'm sorry I dont have a link to it, but here is a very important quote from Chief Nigro:

The biggest decision we had to make was to clear the area and create a collapse zone around the severely damaged [WTC 7] building. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building’s integrity was in serious doubt.

Fire Engineering magazine, 10/2002

Here is another quote from him in regards to WTC7 (since this is the area that raises the biggest questions.)

The most important operational decision to be made that afternoon was that the collapse [Of the WTC towers] had damaged 7 World Trade Center, which is about a 50 story building, at Vesey between West Broadway and Washington Street. It had very heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient around to protect our members, so we had to give up some rescue operations that were going on at the time and back the people away far enough so that if 7 World Trade did collapse, we [wouldn't] lose any more people. We continued to operate on what we could from that distance and approximately an hour and a half after that order was [given], at 5:30 in the afternoon, 7 World Trade Center collapsed completely.

/g8c6y


Also, if you are going to go with explosions that are cause by bombs, you THEN have to ask.... How and where and when were these explosives planted.


[edit on 10-1-2007 by CameronFox]

Cameron -

This is my only problem with that quote. The FEMA report talks briefly of that same quote, but does not give the exact time as to when Chief Nigro had given the orders for a complete evacuation and this 'collapse zone' to be set up.

The reason this is important is because Larry Silverstein's comment of "pull it" to the Chiefs of FDNY. Unfortunately, too, there is no timestamp on that conversation that has come about.

There is one other quote from the FEMA report which talks of no manual firefighting efforts taking place within WTC 7.

These three instances coincide with one another because if there were never any firefighters within the building, and Silverstein made the comment about "pulling the firefighters from the building" thereafter Chief Nigro's decision to create this zone, then Silverstein could not have possibly meant to pull the firefighters from the building in the first place.

I do agree, too, that these explosions could be caused by various different things - however what could be a valiant reason for transformers blowing up stories below the impact zone? (let's not get into this "fireball down the elevator shaft" theory either... lol :roll

Hi Truth,

First of all, Transformers can explode due to several different reasons. I have been a Licensed Electrician in the state of Massachusetts since 1989. I have heard and seen them explode. VERY scary...have you ever heard one explode from outside your home? Anyway, the explosions are typically from a short circuit. This can be caused by a phase to phase short, phase to ground short. Now, these shorts can be caused by debris, water, damage to the transformer casing..etc. Also, if there was a short circuit on the Line side of a main panel, it is probable for that short to carry down to the transformer possibly causing a catastrophic failure.

Check out this video of a transformer exploding. I'm not sure what caused this failure, but make sure you turn your speakers up.

video.google.com...

In this next video, is the collapse of BIG BLUE in 1999 where 3 men were killed. Listen to the sounds that the steel makes prior to and as it collapses.

video.google.com...

I am on my way out right now, but I will respond to your questions about Silverstein this afternoon.

Have a good day.

CameronFox,

Since you are an electrician, could you tell us how many transformers would have been in one WTC tower? I also don't think that explosions mean explosives. But, I also think that something else happened in the towers other than impact damage and fire to bring them down. Could a transformer explosion do damage to steel? Would the transformers be in the core? I'm sure you can see what I'm trying to get at with my questions. Thanks.

I realize that was probably a rhetorical question to Cameron, but I'll throw this out anyway. That would have to be some crazy explosive velocity. An RDX charge, I severely doubt would ever be able to slice even one of the core box columns, unless it was wrapped all the way around one (and of course this is RDX directly touching the column, btw), and RDX has an explosive velocity of about 8750 m/s. And it's a high explosive, actually designed to blow/slice stuff up.

video.google.com...

^ There's a large transformer burning, and the video description says it was 22kV. You don't see the initial explosion, but it doesn't seem like a chemical reaction like a high explosive anyway; it seems more like components are being overheated, very rapidly in some instances, and thereby combusting or exploding, and this would make most sense theoretically.

Around 18 seconds into that video, a massive fireball rips from the transformer. A couple observations I would make are the fireball expanding rather slowly (deflagration rather than actual high explosive (ie FAE), just like the initial tower impact fireballs -- not very forceful; couldn't even remove the aluminum cladding right next to the impacted areas), and that the fire that comes from the transformer after that is pretty damned distinct and I would think it would be easy to spot. Also notice the metal fence immediately surrounding the transformer during all of this. And this is supposed to be a 22kV transformer. I seriously doubt you would be seeing anything like that up that high in either tower considering they were primarily office buildings.

I understand completely the intensity of transformers exploding. Infact, my father works for an Electric company that runs most of the state of New Jersey (GPU Energy), and has for over forty years. He is the guys that climb the poles, fix the transformers, etcetera.

There are certain things, however, that point away from transformers causing the intensity of these explosions.

1.) To my knowledge, I know of no seismic activity recorded due to explosions of transformers (if you know of any, please post)

2.) As well, a very simple question, what would cause these transformers to explode floors below the impact zones, and in the sub-level basements? I understand a short circuit could possibly trip it to your knowledge, but that catastrophically? I'd like to know the chances of this event taking place with all other factors being equal. (and... if we can... let's stay away from the "fireball elevator shaft theory")

And, if we can find out the types of transformers within the building, we can contact the companies and ask them directly the safety precautions they adhere to regarding the placement of their transformers, and if there was any possibility that two impacts of planes 70 - 90 stories above would result in explosions of their transformers. As well as ask the chances of a short circuit causing catastrophic failure, or debris falling into the ground outside of the WTC, etc.

And yes, I'd like for you to comment on the timestamps of the three comments from my previous post that were in the FEMA report.



[edit on 11-1-2007 by TruthSeekerMP]

Bsbray, yes, I will agree that a 22KV xfmr would be rather large for the higher stories of an office building. We also can't confirm that is a 22KV transformer in the video. (but lets assume it is) That being said, at no time was the assumption made that the transformers would cause the damage to the core or the steel trusses. My argument was that the explosions that were heard could have been transformers. It will require some pretty extensive research on the findings within the debris piles to see if there was actual evidence of transformer explosions. I don't know if this exists.

I have seen the damage that has been done first hand by a MUCH smaller transformer than the one posted. Although I didn't hear it, I saw the damage that was done by it. Members of my staff said that they thought "a bomb went off". We lost our entire switch gear for a 38 story building. Sorry, I don't remember the KVA of the Xfrm that shorted out (due to a SMALL amount of water dripping on some buss.) But I can tell you the metal buss for our 1,200 amp switch was gone...encasement and all...literally liquified. Again, I am not saying that the XFRM's contributed to the DAMAGE or the Collapse.

I do not know the layout of the electrical in the WTC. I could give you an estimate as to the demand factor by calculating the square footage of the commercial office space...and what NEC would require as a minimal amount of power needed per floor. This would not tell us how the building would have been laid out, just some basic ideas as to how much Amperage would be needed.

What I do know is that both towers were supplied with services from the substation at WTC7. Each building had two electrical supplies. One for normal power and one for Emergency power. (supplied by generators at WTC7)


Edit: Truth, unless the transformer was that of the size of the one in the video or larger and in the lower levels of the sub=basement, I dont think there would be any measurable seismic activity. ( i am not qualified here just guessing)

[edit on 11-1-2007 by CameronFox]

Originally posted by TruthSeekerMP
And yes, I'd like for you to comment on the timestamps of the three comments from my previous post that were in the FEMA report.

The ol Silverstein quote...seems it will never end. The "truth seekers" often use that as a confession from a muti millionarie (not sure is he at billionaire status) on a nationally televised PBS Special.

Here are some facts and questions I have raised that are ALWAYS ignored.

Facts:
1. Silverstein was NOT at Ground Zero. He was at home with his wife.
2. Silverstein did not say "WE decided to pull it". ( HE said "THEY decided to pull it)
3. I posted a quote that Chief of Operations Nigro said in regards to the decision that was made to stop all efforts. Nigro made the final decision to make a collapse zone around WTC7 so there would be no more loss of life. This STOPPED the search efforts in a part of the debris from the towers collapse. C.O. Nigro was in charge because Chief of Department Ganci died in the north tower collapse.

I didn't read the section of the FEMA report about the Firefighting efforts that they claimed were going on. All I know is that the "operations" that were going on were minimal. There was minimal water pressure, and there was MINIMAL communication equipment. BUT there were some operations going on there. There were firemen there.

Lets get back to the quote...and the part with his so called confession...

"...and I said 'We've had such terrible loss of life. maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it."

Ok..first of all the term "PULL IT" is not a term that is used in a controlled demolition via explosives. The term is used in the destruction of a building using cables.

Now, does anyone honestly think Silverstein had the FDNY at his beck and call? Was he saying..."There has been such a terrible loss of life, lets blow up my building?"

Does the fire department actually have the authority to blow up a building?

Silverstein continued to say: "And they made the decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."

THEY made the decision. Chief Nigro... NOT Larry Silverstien.
the WE was Larry Silverstein and his wife. Remember Larry wasn't at GZ.

As far as the time stamp... this quote from Chief Nigro gives an approximate

"The most important operational decision to be made that afternoon was [that] the collapse [Of the WTC towers] had damaged 7 World Trade Center, which is about a 50 story building, at Vesey between West Broadway and Washington Street. It had very heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient around to protect our members, so we had to give up some rescue operations that were going on at the time and back the people away far enough so that if 7 World Trade did collapse, we [wouldn't] lose any more people. We continued to operate on what we could from that distance and approximately an hour and a half after that order was [given], at 5:30 in the afternoon, 7 World Trade Center collapsed completely."

Chief Daniel Nigro

What time did he call Larry? I don't know. It was before 4pm, thats all I know. No matter, because the time Chief Nigro called Silverstien is IMO irrelevant.

Originally posted by CameronFox
What time did he call Larry? I don't know. It was before 4pm, thats all I know. No matter, because the time Chief Nigro called Silverstien is IMO irrelevant.

PULL is a term that means to bring down a building. There are lots of ways to bring down a building. Fire rescue units have the knowledge and equipment to cut beams.

Yes the time of of the call is important if it was timmed to the builidng collapse and how long the firemen had been pulled out of the building.