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Mossad in Iraq? You bet! (Video)

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posted on Jan, 7 2007 @ 01:35 PM
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Originally posted by Peyres
Pieman.

Please Explain to everyone.......

Peyres, please refrain from attempting to turn this thread into a pro or anti Israel/Jew/Zionism rant.
This thread is about the Mossad in Iraq, what they are doing there, and why it was denied by both the Israeli government and the American occupying force. I appreciate your input thus-far, but I fear the topic is getting lost.




posted on Jan, 7 2007 @ 05:37 PM
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I see a link that says Mossad in Iraq, training people.

And I watch a video of Israeli commandos in Iraq training people.

Sorry did I miss something here?

Mossad are Israel's intelligence agency and I only see Sayeret commandos in that video.

Sayeret = Israeli Special Forces Commando.




[edit on 7-1-2007 by WarGame]



posted on Jan, 7 2007 @ 05:51 PM
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And anyway why is this so shocking, mossad have been in Iraq (all over) for years and never been caught on cam.

Here something more shocking (or not as it seems) American CIA trained and armed fighters in Afghanistan to fight the Russians for years, before turning their skills learnt and weapons stockpiled against American troops.

Tell me again why this story is so shocking?



posted on Jan, 7 2007 @ 05:54 PM
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Here lads, when these curd fighters that the Israeli Sayeret are training in Iraq, turn the skills they have learnt on Isreali troops or people in anger, sure then we have a story.

And then I feel we might not have.


[edit on 7-1-2007 by WarGame]



posted on Jan, 8 2007 @ 05:35 AM
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Originally posted by 11Bravo

Originally posted by Peyres
Pieman.

Please Explain to everyone.......

Peyres, please refrain from attempting to turn this thread into a pro or anti Israel/Jew/Zionism rant.
This thread is about the Mossad in Iraq, what they are doing there, and why it was denied by both the Israeli government and the American occupying force. I appreciate your input thus-far, but I fear the topic is getting lost.



Ok back on topic now!

11 i think you want to know what mossad are upto so i have come up with one possible scenario.

everyone knows a house divided cannot stand, now the Kurds have been pursecuted and margenalised under the Saddam Ragime. They want compensation, thier own state, and control of some oil fields which i believe they have already asked for.

both isreal and america/britain need cheap oil and must insure a steady supply for as long as it last. So to insure our supply we need to put puppets in place. the sunnis and shiars are fighting it out, america can't control a shiar Gov who would unit Iraq one way or another and possibly forge links with Iran making them stronger with more influence over oil and actually stabalising thier country

Isreal/coelition can train and arm the Kurds to fight for thier independence and in the least defend themselves or make a coup.
America/coelition then trains and arms the shia to defend thier position.
Then the coelition trains and arms the sunni to defend thier position and all the while the arms companys make a three way "killing" from never ending war and america has a political finger in all three pies. Hence the country is split into three (recognised or not) and the Iraqi Economy and Gov cannot stabillise making them forever indephted to the allies, insuring cheap oil, compensation for the war (booty), and profitable arms deals, not to mention the supply of illegal arms from Mossad and the c.i.a (un taxable
)

Isreal get an unwitting allie in keeping the region unstable in effect lessening the percieved threat from the arabs, and should the Kurds come to a position of power isreal would definetly recieve some favourible contracts for thier efforts in the least gain a friend. which brings me to a point that pieman made Why should isreal be allowed to benefit or be involved when they contributed nothing?

Divide and conquer is the name of the game as history has shown and this is what Mossad, C.I.A, and MI6 are doing in Iraq.




posted on Jan, 8 2007 @ 06:28 AM
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Originally posted by WarGame
Tell me again why this story is so shocking?


IF they want to play with fire, then they shouldnt kick and scream when they get burnt.

Iraq shouldnt have AMERICANS in it, let alone ISRAELI's.

The whole arab world hates you, you complain they are the agressors. yet you activley mingle and manipulate in their countrie,s causing strife for them.

Israel doesnt belong on Palestine land, they dont have a right to be there, making the palestinians live under occupation.

THEREFORE, they have right to be involved in ANY other countries affairs either,because it simply looks like they are making further attempts at ensuring everything htat happens, is benficial for Israel.

And when you look at the quality of life they have inflicted on Palestine, and Lebanon, you can understand why its so SHOCKING to see the continuing there ' good work ' in OTHER countries.

Iraq is a MESS, it is absoltuley atrocious what the USA has done, israel coming into the mix is going to make the Iraqi's SUFFER even more.

Im shocked that human being, can condone what israel does.

dont you have a heart?
or a soul for that matter.



posted on Jan, 8 2007 @ 09:06 AM
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A heart or soul!

Man dear, Israel are the best Anti-terrorist force in the world for a reason, that reason is clear (training and plenty real world training) they have been attacked more times than a turkey at the Christmas table and have always come out on top.

Israel complains they (Arab nations) are the aggressors? You do know that some of them Arab nations are officially still at war with Israel. They want the total destruction of a country and its people, they dont wish to talk about it, they just want it off the map I would say thats pretty good reason to think they are aggressors.

When your neighbour calls for the obliteration of your family home and the family within, give me a shout about complaints.

By the way, I am not Jewish; I am from Northern Ireland and therefore support the Israeli stance on the terrorist nations that surround them.



posted on Jan, 8 2007 @ 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by WarGame
A heart or soul!

Man dear, Israel are the best Anti-terrorist force in the world for a reason, that reason is clear (training and plenty real world training) they have been attacked more times than a turkey at the Christmas table and have always come out on top.



They are the best? How do you see that? Wherever they go and whatever they are involved in attracts terrorism for some mysterious reason. They are the last people that I could say are terrorist experts unless you want to say they know how to terrorize.
I dunno you have a strange outlook on how you can actually say that they come out on top after killing all these people in the past few years. You think killing a 12 year old girl for getting to close to a wall is being "on top"?

Also do you think its fair that they can possibly be maligning Iran in order to secure their own little Oil dispersal business out of the Mediterranean by signing a contract with the Kurds, running a pipeline from Mosul to Haifa and supplying Irans former customers with Oil?

Since they were one of the main proponents of the Iraqi war and looked upon it as a pre-emptive strike , yet they did nothing on the ground, this could have all been a ruse merely for the sake of an Oil pipeline. Israel has nothing else as far as income generating businesses, nothing that will feed their 54Billion and growing a year defense budget. Only oil can do that for them. Lets see them send 10,000 Israeli uniformed troops and earn the right to put their fingers in it. Lets see how good their anti-terrorism skills are then.



posted on Jan, 8 2007 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by ThePieMaN
They are the best? How do you see that? Wherever they go and whatever they are involved in attracts terrorism for some mysterious reason. They are the last people that I could say are terrorist experts unless you want to say they know how to terrorize.
I dunno you have a strange outlook on how you can actually say that they come out on top after killing all these people in the past few years. You think killing a 12 year old girl for getting to close to a wall is being "on top"?

Also do you think its fair that they can possibly be maligning Iran in order to secure their own little Oil dispersal business out of the Mediterranean by signing a contract with the Kurds, running a pipeline from Mosul to Haifa and supplying Irans former customers with Oil?

Since they were one of the main proponents of the Iraqi war and looked upon it as a pre-emptive strike , yet they did nothing on the ground, this could have all been a ruse merely for the sake of an Oil pipeline. Israel has nothing else as far as income generating businesses, nothing that will feed their 54Billion and growing a year defense budget. Only oil can do that for them. Lets see them send 10,000 Israeli uniformed troops and earn the right to put their fingers in it. Lets see how good their anti-terrorism skills are then.


Okay what you said is somewhat silly.

You just said They are the best? How do you see that? Thus indicating that you do not indeed see them as the best, then you go on to say They are the last people that I could say are terrorist experts unless you want to say they know how to terrorize if they know how to terrorise, then surly this does make them experts in said field.

The SAS have trained US and Israeli special forces over the years, The SAS make great special forces, everyone in their right mind knows this and they also know that the true saying of the SAS is who cares who wins and not who dares wins this means that not only do the SAS make great Special forces Anti-terrorism troops, but if they turned rouge they would indeed make the best terrorists around. (would anyone like to butt in and agree) See my point yet? Or shall I wait until you finish 7th grade?

Do I think killing a 12 year old boy is coming out on top?

Senseless loaded question with no meaning. I am sure there were lots of 12 year old boys killed in WWII by Allied forces, but they still won the war and thus came out On Top So what, the Israeli war with their neighbours is lasting a little bit longer. Why do you not understand that people die in war, this is what happens, IF a young boy comes into a town in Israeli with a not so fun bun-bag-bomb, goes off and kills 35 people on a buss, you think the IDF wont be on the look out for these younger than normal rouges?

Watching the pictures on (various) media outlets tell me and shows me many views and angles about the people that hate Israeli and one of the things that sticks in my mind, is the pictures of little 2 year old suicide bombers (or rather good look-alikes, as their parents seen it fit to do fancy dress terrorist killer style) they are taught from an early age who needs exterminated, whos country needs to be drove into the sea
Wiped off the map and has no right to even exist and then you question the nation itself, a nation that is surrounded by these countries and their many (hiding in the shadows and under the direct funding of) splinter, breakaway terrorist groups and you then question the Israeli defence budget! You say oil is so important to them, as you see it - Israel has nothing else as far as income generating businesses, nothing that will feed their 54Billion and growing a year defence budget. Only oil can do that for them then I ask you young Sir, what it the point in your waste of time signature picture .Gif (did you get that one, I thought that was rather good myself)

[edit on 8-1-2007 by WarGame]



posted on Jan, 8 2007 @ 01:58 PM
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PieMan Look, youre the type of person who announces himself before he opens his mouth, or even types a word, I seen your hate for Israel before I even saw your text.




posted on Jan, 8 2007 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by ThePieMaN
MG
As usual Israel does no wrong.

First-off, I have explained to you previously that Israel does do wrong…unfortunately far too few see what all the neighboring nations etal. actually do wrong and buy into the fray.


Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Its a shame but for as long as people enable Israel to do these things and to continually attempt to decieve people , Israel will always be at war.


As long as the leaders of the ‘other’ ME regions do as above, the same can be said. Exchange the use of your word “Israel” with say…Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Libya, Chad….etc…etc….etc….


Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Its when people cease attempting to decieve and like a drug addict….


Your comments drift at this point and I am not quite sure what the point of your ‘paragraph’ is entirely about.


Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Anyway getting back to topic. Israel has no business in Iraq , didn't participate and is not entitled to any benefits or contracts. Just like France was told when it didn't join the Coalition of The Willing. You can stick up for a nation that rides off the backs of Americans lives, but I stick with America first.


“Just Like France”…you are assuming way too much. The French have lost citizens, workers and ex-military personnel in Iraq. The presence of French citizens never implied “France” was involved…you have here Israeli citizens and assumed Israeli involvement, why not the same assumed French involvement?

Is not the French Navy participating to this day in Gulf security? Were there not French security forces in Falluja? Have not the French a horrible, horrible history in the region…more so worse than Israel? Were the French not part of the ME conflict in general? Did not the French help create the nuclear threat in Israel? The French were involved in genocide!...where is/was the grief? Israel belongs in Iraq long before France… Where do you want me to stop???? ….with the Germans? The Japanese? Get over it…..

mg



posted on Jan, 8 2007 @ 04:23 PM
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Originally posted by WarGame

Do I think killing a 12 year old boy is coming out on top?

Senseless loaded question with no meaning. I am sure there were lots of 12 year old boys killed in WWII by Allied forces, but they still won the war and thus came out ?On Top? So what, the Israeli war with their neighbours is lasting a little bit longer. Why do you not understand that people die in war, this is what happens, IF a young boy comes into a town in Israeli with a not so fun bun-bag-bomb, goes off and kills 35 people on a buss, you think the IDF wont be on the look out for these younger than normal rouges?


Well I can pretty much see that your still stuck in 1940's and you are using the usual banter to defend Israeli actions. Nothing new to read here. Maybe we can discuss things when you are back in the year 2007 and you come up with something original to answer for all this.If Israeli propaganda pictures of a 2 year old child dressed as a suicide bomber scare you so much theres no use talking about this.



posted on Jan, 8 2007 @ 04:51 PM
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Wargame, do you feel that what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people will lead to resentment, or do you think that Israel is doing the right thing?



posted on Jan, 8 2007 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Natanyahoo touted Iraq as a pre-emptive strike ..wasn't pre-emptive for us, so who was it pre-emptive for? Natanyahoo is 100% for Israel.

GW said that ANYONE NOT PARTICIPATING would not be eligible for any type of rebuilding or contracts. So does anyone remember any Israelis losing life or limb in the war on terror in Iraq? I don't remember any Israelis shedding any blood..Americans died, Brits died, but I don't recollect any Israelis dying. I see them over there with their hands in the cookie jar though, reaping the benefits as though they are contributors to the WOT , when in actuality they are the main force driving these attacks upon us. When are we going to wake up? The Israeli government is a farce, its a sham and they are not to be trusted. If they say they will be doing an investigation, you can bet your bottom dollar that it won't. Liars and shiesters. I would not be surprised that these guys were not in those videos where security contractors were going around Iraq inciting the civilians into killing each other.

They have a lot of nerve aiding a people such as the Kurds to gain independence while meanwhile in their own country they murder and oppress another race of people. Stay in your own country and fix your own problems before you go with you hands out begging for money on the backs of other peoples sweat and blood! They have no right what so ever profiting from any part of Iraq.


Israel offered airspace which was rejected (partly because Jordan did not want to be involved I think)
Israel also offered it's entire airforce to attack Afgahnistan following 9/11.
Israel offered to use it's airforce and ground troops to invade through the north of Iraq.
Israel offered financial assistance to the begining of the war.
Israel offered ground forces (tanks, troops, air lifts, even medical units)
Israel offered peace keeping troops.
Israel offered contracted peace keeping troops.
Israel has offered military support (to be the main partner) in a war against Iran.

Israel's aid (including some humanitarian) has been rejected by the United States because Israel is a Jewish state. Not that we are antisemetic but because the sight of an Israeli flag on Iraqi territory would be blown out of proportion, militias would slaughter them.. they would have been the big bullzeye for the Islamic militias.

So they have their hand in the cookie jar .. and they are not dieing. They cannot die in a place we do not allow them to go. Israel is a military industrial nation. They make billions inventing, improving, constructing weapons of war. So no doubt any war America is involved in Israel will profit, they do not how ever have any big time contracts (such as oil that all went to the Brits and the Americans ... Notice France is left out
.. That is what Bush mean't by that statement .. however I am sure we will still allow them some contracts. Oops. I mean I am sure the Iraqi government will give them some contracts.
)

I honestly would not doubt Mossad is training Kurds, especially the PKK .. The reason why?

Trukey.

Iran.

Not Iraq.

Israel would benefit more from a stable western controled Iraq then the current hell hole it is. However, Iraq would benefit greatly from a terrorized Turkey and an Iran in trouble as well. The Kurds are also being trained by American forces, but for the most part the actual Iraqi Kurds are self trained (they have their own standing army) where as the PKK is what I would bet they are training. The PKK are the ones involved in the terrorist attacks at the airport in Istanbul and many other attacks in the past years, and many more before that. The Mossad and CIA and I am sure many other European nations. France if you did not know deeply despises Turkey and is the number one reason Turkey is not in the EU. They would love to piss Turkey off so they commit another act of genocide.

Because Kurdistan covers areas through Iraq, Turkey, Armenia, Iran the PKK can be utilized by the Mossad or CIA to destabalize either region. Of course I don't think either Israel or America has a problem with Armenia, but because it links Turkey, Iran and Kurdistani Iraq, attackers can ambush a convoy in Iran, retreat into Iraq where Iran cannot go, or into Turkey, where they really cannot go. They can and have attacked Turkey guard stations, then retreat back into Iraq. They can also smuggle weapons through Kurdistan (Kurds have large smuggling businesses in arms and oil.. oh yeah and drugs) to feul a seperatist movement in either Turkey or Iran.

So you see, we, America anyways, and Israel use people all over the world to feul our agendas, it would not be surprising to see Israel or America using Kurds, exploiting them and wrecking political havoc in the region.

Thats all I have on the main topic. If the main topic was that, why Israel would be training Kurds. I have a feeling people do not look at Israel as a nation but instead as some kind of dark evil society. I blame the media for that, and of course this being a conspiracy site. There are evil people in all countries, no one state being innocent, they all commit great evils. All nations are guilty of spying as well. Do you think Russia has stopped spying on America, on Britain? .. No. Do you not think America spies on Britian? .. Hell we helped the IRA. Every nation is just out to look out for number one, and take out any one who stands in their way. Nations are primal, the strongest survive and the weak suffer the strong. It is a constant struggle to remain on top. Once on top it is a constant paranoia that someone will get you. Israel is number one in the region and they do not like rising powers. Israel and Iran actually had diplomatic relations before the current Iranian hardline government took over some decades ago (70's?) and the peoples have no issues with eachother.

So why be surprised, why single out, when Israel does what states do.

I am not defending what they are doing. I am simply stating that this is in no way bizzaar, It may not be ethical, it may be shady, it may be "evil" and it may be some conspiracy to hurt someone but it is legal and it is normal.



posted on Jan, 8 2007 @ 06:49 PM
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Originally posted by DJMessiah
Wargame, do you feel that what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people will lead to resentment, or do you think that Israel is doing the right thing?


Do I think what they are doing is right? Personally if I was the Israeli Government and I had the choice to make, the way Israel has been treated by her neighbours over the past years, I would have dropped a few bigger bombs over the fence.

Attack in todays world is not the best form of defence, its the only form, if your enemies are calling for you to be wiped of the map and they enter your cities to try and achieve this real world, then these people need taken down and out.

I support Israeli, British and American troops, I might not agree with their government all the time, but these men defend our lives, they do it so our lives back home can remain as free and unrestricted as possible.

The Palestinian people? I am sure there have been times when innocent Palestinian people have been murdered, but when is the last time you seen an Israeli suicide bomber enter a buss full of females and children and pulling a wee cord. The IDF make discussions base on active intelligence and sometimes they get it wrong, this happens in war and conflict, but they dont send 14 year olds and females onto busses packed with kids, a Palestinian smart bomb?

But I have consideration if not compassion for the people of Palestine, as their leadership in the past has let them down.



posted on Jan, 8 2007 @ 09:20 PM
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Originally posted by WarGame
PieMan Look, you?re the type of person who announces himself before he opens his mouth, or even types a word, I seen your hate for Israel before I even saw your text.



Just to answer this ridiculous message.

With responses like this:


Originally posted by WarGame
if I was the Israeli Government and I had the choice to make, the way Israel has been treated by her neighbours over the past years, I would have dropped a few bigger bombs over the fence.


I hope you understand this and it comes from the bottom of my heart. Do you really think I care about your opinion of me? Not in the least.



posted on Jan, 8 2007 @ 10:23 PM
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Originally posted by WarGame
Do I think what they are doing is right? Personally if I was the Israeli Government and I had the choice to make, the way Israel has been treated by her neighbours over the past years, I would have dropped a few bigger bombs over the fence.


And do you feel that would increase or decrease terrorism? Notice, Jews and Muslims lived peacefully in the area before current day "Israel" was formed. When the state was formed, and the Palestinians were oppressed and treated like criminals, the terrorism started. Israel has taken away most of the Palestinians' rights, and you expect Palestinians to allow it to happen?


Attack in today�s world is not the best form of defence, it�s the only form


How well has that worked for Israel?



if your enemies are calling for you to be wiped of the map and they enter your cities to try and achieve this real world, then these people need taken down and out.


Do you understand the difference between a map and the world? If I were to tell you that I am going to wipe the Atlantic Ocean off the map, would you understand that I literally take it off a map? Now if I were to say, "I'm going to wipe Atlantic Ocean off the world," it would mean I would literally destroy it.

You said if "they enter your cities." The West Bank and Gaza belong to the Palestinians, and it is Israel that is occupying the area. I think you fail to understand that it is Israel entering in the Palestinian towns. Would you be alright with a neighboring country entering your town, building a wall around your city, blocking access to main roads, school for your children, farm lands, placing curfews, cut off all electricity and water for weeks, and making you a prisoner of you own land, taking away all guns and weapons from your police, and bombing high civilian populated areas to kill a few terrorists, just because a group of terrorists bombed their land? Would you call that fair enough to punish one group?

Notice, it is Israel who is always crossing the borders into other territories/countries. Have there been any current events where any neighboring country entered Israel with any military force, or fighter jets, rather than Israel doing it to others?


I support Israeli, British and American troops, I might not agree with their government all the time, but these men defend our lives, they do it so our lives �back home� can remain as free and unrestricted as possible.


Interesting. How many Israeli soldiers have died to protect you? Are you a patriot of your country or a patriot of the world?


The Palestinian people? I am sure there have been times when innocent Palestinian people have been murdered, but when is the last time you seen an Israeli suicide bomber enter a buss full of females and children and pulling a wee cord.


They don't have to, their soldiers do it quite well. Whether it's destroying civilian homes with bulldozers, shooting people with tanks, blowing up cars in crowded public areas, or dropping bombs on civilian buildings, the Israeli soldiers take the place of terrorists.


The IDF make discussions base on active intelligence and sometimes they get it wrong, this happens in war and conflict, but they don�t send 14 year olds and females onto busses packed with kids, a Palestinian smart bomb?


No, they forcefully recruit young adults to fight their wars. All able bodied teenagers are forced to enter the military, and those who choose not to are imprisoned.


But I have consideration if not compassion for the people of Palestine, as their leadership in the past has let them down.


Is this before or after you "drop a few bigger bombs over the fence"?

[edit on 8-1-2007 by DJMessiah]



posted on Jan, 8 2007 @ 10:41 PM
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Originally posted by WarGame
A heart or soul!

Israel are the best Anti-terrorist force in the world for a reason


Probably because your forcing so many impovished people to take up arms and kill them selves attempting to damage you.
Tell me, for every man women or child that kills them self seeking redemption against you, do you class that as a succesfully killed enemy combatant?

I do not believe your the best anti-terrorist force, not by a long shot.
Your the REASON most arab countries take up terrorist activities.
What you are doing to PALESTINATE IS INHUMAN. If you defend that then yes, you clearly have a black heart, and no soul!



Israel complains they (Arab nations) are the aggressors? You do know that some of them Arab nations are officially still at war with Israel. They want the total destruction of a country and its people, they don?t wish to talk about it, they just want it ?off the map? I would say thats pretty good reason to think they are aggressors.


Again, you think they just make up reasons to hate you.
They are arab, palestine is arab, They see what your doing to there race, and they want to help them. Simple as that. End the suffering in palestine, the arab nations will start to lose those hatred feelings.
Peace is an amazing thing, and sine the 6day war when you STILL occupy arab land, there has been no peace. because you are on there land.
Do you understand?

I believe israel has a right to exist.
BUT
being your on PALESTINE LAND, you should be the ones bending over backwards to live in peace.
IT Is not your LAND, or your RIGHT to be enforcing road blocks, curfews, and making there life an amazing hell.

Your on their god given land.

So long as israel belives they have right OVER the territory, the arab world will continue to hit you.
You can either continue to stay at war with them, continuing to attack them until one of you are completly obliterated.
Or you can give them back the occupied territories, pull all your soliders and roadblocks OUT of their land, and let them live how ever the hell they want to live.



posted on Jan, 9 2007 @ 07:59 AM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck

Israel's aid (including some humanitarian) has been rejected by the United States because Israel is a Jewish state. Not that we are antisemetic but because the sight of an Israeli flag on Iraqi territory would be blown out of proportion, militias would slaughter them.. they would have been the big bullzeye for the Islamic militias.



Exactly and you know this and I know this, so my question is if you are not welcome there by allied forces as well as other citizens of that country... WHY GO THERE THEN?

Instead of helping Kurds in Iraq , they should help get the Palestinians own only airport up and running again instead of bombing it to make sure Israel is the only entranceway in or out of Palestine. Fix **** in your own backyard before you try going around to the neighbors yards and telling them how to fix up theirs is my point.

I was already aware of the reasons why they were not part of the Iraqi war. The thing of it is if you know you are not welcome somewhere and your presence there would offend , then why risk everyone elses hard work , blood, sweat, and tears by showing up at all. Why force yourself upon people or do it on the sneak. The Kurds are not an independant entity, they are still citizens of Iraq and it is still the country of Iraq.

I'll agree with this when you tell me that Syria is in Palestine helping to train security troops and rebuild the Palestinian airport and Israel is fine with it.



posted on Jan, 9 2007 @ 10:06 PM
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Er Pie.. The point is that either those are not real Israeli soldiers, they are not really in Iraq, or they are there because we asked them to be there, in any case we know they are there.



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