wow, i know this doesn't contribute to the thread but this post was made 3 years ago. Every page spans like 7 months at least. That is incredible for the limited amount of pages in this thread. Incredible.

Originally posted by mbkennel
The reason there is no obvious replacement for oil today is not fundamentally MONEY and POWER: it is CHEMISTRY and PHYSICS.

This administration needs to come clean with the public about the need for an actual comprehensive national energy strategy - with the urgency and priority given to Kennedy's space program.

I know.. Bush mentioned that in his latest "press conference." I'm talking about a real plan - not lip service. This is a very real issue of national security.

I think that if people got a little creative there would be a solution to our fuel issues in no time. I guess the simple truth is, oil makes money and until there is no oil left we will keep using it. People arn't going to stop buying gas because they need to get to work, school, etc. So as long as we are creating a demand this cycle will continue. Since the 70's people have proposed using ethinol, this type of fuel would be much cheeper and way better for the enviorment, but no one gets rich.

Originally posted by emmileigh510
I think that if people got a little creative there would be a solution to our fuel issues in no time.

I totally agree with that statement.

There is nothing we can't accomplish when we put our minds and resources to work. That's what I love about this country.

Now if big oil would just put humanity before their profits, we'd be on our way.

Originally posted by emmileigh510
I think that if people got a little creative there would be a solution to our fuel issues in no time. I guess the simple truth is, oil makes money and until there is no oil left we will keep using it. People arn't going to stop buying gas because they need to get to work, school, etc. So as long as we are creating a demand this cycle will continue. Since the 70's people have proposed using ethinol, this type of fuel would be much cheeper and way better for the enviorment, but no one gets rich.

Ethanol is not cheaper. It takes more energy to produce, yields less energy in combustion and you still have to dedicate crop land (which requires oil) to produce the biomass for ethanol conversion. Also, if we switched to ethanol, then ethanol producers would get rich. There's a lot of tanks to fill--someone is going to make money on it (or rather, a lot of someones).

People can be as creative as they like, but there is not an easy and simple solution to our fuel issues. You are correct in that demand creates a lot of the problem. Compact walkable cities, more bikes and more public transportation is the first step. The end of the auto lifestyle has to happen. You kill two birds with one stone--less obesity, so public health enemy number seven (obesity was recently bumped down from number 2 to 7 by the CDC) goes away and you save oil for essential things like crops, medicine, plastics, and to power trucks and planes for transportation.

All this other business--hydrogen fuel cells, ethanol, biodiesel--is all because people lack the imagination or the will to envision a world without cars. You need hydrogen cells, ethanol, biodiesel because you want to have cars. All it does it get rid of one problem and introduce new problems. If we abandon the auto and the huge infrastructure costs associated with it, then, yes, we just might get by for a while with our energy provided by coal and nuclear, supplemented with renewables like solar and wind.

Corporations have bought out the private farms.

More and more people are living out in the suburbs.

Without vehicles, getting to work would be a nightmare for most.

These are things we should take a long hard look at before fuel becomes too pricey for individuals.

A solution can be found. All it takes is minds working together.

I hear costs as an issue. No, it's just an excuse to do something we know should be done. This is one thing that pisses me off the most. Costs go above cleaner fuel? Sounds like some priorities are messed up to me. It can't be that difficult, we've got fuel sources all around us. Energy is everywhere. Yeah it might cost a little more to make or produce fuel "x", but in time as you become more accustomed to it, and efficiency increases, then costs could drop. This is simply an avoidance of bringing about a solution.

Troy

I don't think prices are going down. I think fuel cost is only going to rise.

We in the states have been very lucky for a very long time w/regards to fuel prices. And the funny thing is, most of us don't even know that. Fuel in England and Germany is at least $5 per gallon.

If we had to pay that price, it would wreak havoc on a lot of low income people. Maybe it would force a lot of people to ride the bus or to carpool. That might not be so bad.

Kazakhastan has already hit peak oil. Yemen's greatest producing well is peaked and Azerbejian(sp?) expects a peak in 2011. It is a real event which will happen. The rate at which we bleed the earth does not compute well for how fast the marrow replaces. Eventually the peak will come, soon, like next 80-100 years, and if mankind has not built nuclear power plants, solar panel fields in space, and created the workable and effecient Hydrogen fuel cell, this could spell doom.
MOst of the world's countries and peoples do not depend upon the amount of oil consumed by developed nations, but depend on the kindness of these nations to help them out. I would estimate a nation wide epidemic of 120-230 million people dying each year of starvation within the next hundred, if something is not done.

The starvation thing is what probably concerns me the most. Because the machinery of our entire society is oil-based, the effects of a massive fuel shortage would be catastrophic. Catastrophic because our food supply would be completely thrown out of whack and it would be next to impossible for millions of people to get to their jobs (living in the burbs & out in the country). Then there would be looting and food scavenging on a massive scale.

Back to an Amish way of life if an alternative isn't developed and made readily available. Not a bad way of life, I still like my machines though.

I have been looking in to alternatives. The internal combustion is just so complex to start with. The electric engine is a much simpler design. The weed eater I have is battery powered, but still is an electric engine. Damn simple to operate. Press buttons and you are on your way. No start up problems typical of weed eaters. I think electric engines should be a part of the change or some type of simpler more efficient engine design.

Keep your eyes and ears open. I believe better alternatives may be coming, just don't necessarily expect it to come from the big 3 Auto companies or the Oil World Order. I believe that independent minds may be the ones to bring us away from the dependence on oil. Again, there is energy and forces all around us, think outside the confines of the "box".

Troy

Originally posted by cybertroy
Back to an Amish way of life if an alternative isn't developed and made readily available.

It's definitely not a bad way. We've become so reliant on and driven by technology it kind of takes some getting used to. I can look back on a small handful of times in my life when I've been as content/happy as I could be:

In the Army - when everything was supplied and taken care of.

Working on a horse farm beside a river outside of Charleston, SC. That was a very peaceful time for me. Working under the blue skies on the land. Just me and the horses and hard work. It was a simple life; but very good. It wouldn't take too much for me to be able to slip out of the suit, out of the city and back into the country.

And these days. I'm trying to do whatever I can now to prepare for whatever comes at us in the days ahead.

I believe that independent minds may be the ones to bring us away from the dependence on oil. Again, there is energy and forces all around us, think outside the confines of the "box".

Definitely! Do what you can now to figure out how to make yourself less reliant on oil - in however many ways you can. And there are many ways. The more you do now to prepare, the less sting you will feel in those coming days.

It's not so hard to be less reliant on oil, really.

And you don't need to spend $30k on a hybrid.

You need to spend $2k on a scooter or $5k on a motorcycle. But please, for our lungs,
don't get a 2-cycle unless it is a modern direct injection low-pollution engine.

And the scooters and motorcycles have barely begun to be engineered for fuel efficiency because it isn't necessary.

Keep your car or truck; just don't drive it very much unless you really really need to, like when you have to drive many people or there's a driving rainstorm or snowstorm.

Remember that virtually no grid electricity is produced by oil now. And most homes aren't oil heated either. If yours is, convert now to natural gas if you can, or better yet, insulate insulate insulate.

Thanks for the tips.

There's one problem though, with the scooter/motorcycle tip: Many, many people cannot or will not get them. For various reasons. And b/c of jobs being so far from where people live, driving is a complete necessity.

Just as an aside, I saw a graphic in the paper comparing gas mileage for various SUV's. I've often wondered how those folks can afford to fill them up every week. Now, I can't believe anyone would waste so much money on them. What a crock. $50 bucks and up a week. It's insane.

For another point of reference for suppressed technology, why aren't cars made with aluminum panels? It's light, it can be made strong, and it doesn't rust. Rust, hmmm there we go, doesn't last. You just buy another car if you don't want to deal with a rust bucket. Vehicles are made to fail and continue a profit stream. This, to me, doesn't add up to a better vehicle, just another profit machine. Just like oil it's about money.

Do you remember the old Japanes cars, unstoppable, year after year they continued to run? Recently, mom and dad had a 90s model Cadillac. It started having problems, the last time they took it in, the person at the dealership told them after 10 years the computer systems in the cars start to go bad. This leads to a lot of money to get it fixed. This is a high dollar car starting to fail after 10 years, a Cadillac folks!

Troy

Aluminium tends to oxidize over a long time. It also cracks like glass in high speed crashes, becomes sharpnel and doesn't absorb impact to keep you safer. Bending aluminium is also more costly and not a simple task.

If it was used, people would be taking the paint off and polishing thier car to a blinding mirror finish, anodizing and clear coat would be cool though.

Offcourse you do know that there have already been awesome advances in allternate power sources(electic, hydrogen, even water), but why are we not using them now to conserve our oil and gas supply???

The same reason that the whole Millinium crisis took place, someone has to make money off of it first!

When hydrogen technology was first fully developed, the company claimed that it would be in full working order and that it was perfectly safe. But then out of no-where the gas company(I think Texaco) bought the technology right out from under them. And they are holding it back, waiting for the day when gas prices are $10 a gal. and people will be willing to pay $50,000 for a hydrogen powered car that doesnt require any gasoline. It's all a big profit game, and always has been. We will not run out of anything, the back ups are there, just waiting, we will just have to pay for them.

Originally posted by Kamikazi
Offcourse you do know that there have already been awesome advances in allternate power sources(electic, hydrogen, even water), but why are we not using them now to conserve our oil and gas supply???

The same reason that the whole Millinium crisis took place, someone has to make money off of it first!

When hydrogen technology was first fully developed, the company claimed that it would be in full working order and that it was perfectly safe. But then out of no-where the gas company(I think Texaco) bought the technology right out from under them. And they are holding it back, waiting for the day when gas prices are $10 a gal. and people will be willing to pay $50,000 for a hydrogen powered car that doesnt require any gasoline. It's all a big profit game, and always has been. We will not run out of anything, the back ups are there, just waiting, we will just have to pay for them.

there are no backups, solar panels only have a 20% efficiency rate, and transporting electricity is less efficiënt in heat, as for hydrogen technology, to make enough cells, we would need ALL the platinum in the world, and that's not counting the fact that the cells will break down eventually, biodiesel needs too much space, TD is like eating your own feces, you might not be hungry anymore, but you didn't gain much energy (sorry for that disgusting anology), hemp, wind, none of it is practically feasible, or if it is, the EPR isn't big enough.

Damn, I keep hearing there isn't a viable solution. Of course there is. You've just gotta stop buying into the excuses and reasons why not.

The internal combustion engine, with all it's beautiful engineering, is much too complex for one thing. It is a resource wasting machine. It's like reaching over your shoulder to scratch your ass.

An electric engine is a fine example of a simpler engine. No quarts of oil. No starter. No manifold. No exhaust pipe. No catalytic converter. No carburetor. Less wasted motion. Less parts. Easier to maintain. Batteries can be charged directly from solar for example. Solar is only one possibillity.

Troy