Scientific proof that prayer works...

Toltec

You could not educate me about religion even if you tried your best. your false views on the word of god are a great Deceit, and they do not help those who wish to learn. Everything I say about religion I back up with scripture. Yet you hardly do yourself. I believe that you are an enemy to the word of God and you resist the Holy spirit.

It is fact that God will physically Judge this Earth. and their will be war, famine and disease on a magnitude that this world has never experienced. It is all written in the Bible, black and white, Yet you deny it. those who do not believe the word of God are indeed against God himself. So why waste time, open up your heart to the truth and grow up yourself.

Steward your such a sick little puppy, so preoccupied with death and destruction.

I am very well educated young man and in fact minored on religion (during my BA).
At 40 I have (what I care to admit) an MA In Crisis Intervention. Keep in mind my self indulgent friend, that Revelations 3 verse 22 states "He that have and ear hear what the Spirit saith to the Churches" and then it begins with
the story that is ohhh so popular.

Perhaps you can file a Disability claim

[Edited on 17-11-2002 by Toltec]

Bandit,

This statement....

"Some Dr's have sayed that each body lost +/- 20 gr.They don't know what is it, but they are sure. We have a weight lost of +/- 20 gr. It's happened only with humans, and they don't know what's going on. They can't give a good explanation. May be it's our soul... "

I'd like links or some more info about it please...

Here you go James.

www.ghostweb.com...

Thanx...Reading it now, but is there anything abit more credible beside's a gohst hunter?

James that experiment is correctly documented and prepared in a scientific periodical (of its day). There is nothing prepared to date, which refutes or for
That matter repeats the experiment presented. It actually unfortunate that these facts exist but nonetheless it is treated in such a way. I have done serious research into any information, which either refutes or substantiates the claims made (both on the Internet and off). To date have found nothing and do suggest you or anyone else interested in following up my claim to by all means do so.

This experiment has never been officially repeated it has never been debunked or in any way proven wrong. This despite the fact that a Hospital bed could very easily be modified to differentiate the differences in weight implied (and that is anytime ever since the 1950s).

James the last thing I want is for you or anyone else to engage in behavior that is a waste of time. I personally took the trouble to investigate this matter and know I have nothing to refute it.

[Edited on 17-11-2002 by Toltec]

Thanks. Just got done reading it. My problem with it though, is it's one guy claiming something, and as you said has yet to be reproduced. This is hardly evidence of a soul. I also find it odd how he had problem's running the experiment when people who opposed it were present.

"In the fourth case, a woman dying of diabetic coma, unfortunately our scales were not finely adjusted and there was a good deal of interference by people opposed to our work, and although at death the beam sunk so that it required from three-eighths to one-half ounce to bring it back to the point preceding death, yet I regard this test as of no value"

There were other problem's beside that, that resulted in "no value" as well...

To be honest what the man (Dr) presented was, what he presented.

My impression is he tried very hard to do the correct thing, the reuslts did favor the claim that the soul had weight. What questions(at present) exist is when can this be repeated???

Your right...He presented what he presented. What he presented though, was not actual evidence of a soul nor even evidence of a loss of wieght. From the sounds of it, his research sounded abit shady. Like psychics who get researched and end up being hoaxes.

"there was a good deal of interference by people opposed to our work"

Same thing above applies to the people who claimed to be psychic, yet turned out hoax. Under close scrutiny of those who didn't believe and wanted to test, did these people fail at thier claims. Sounds extremly similar with that one case right there... I can't call a ghost hunter credable in any sense either...

Neither can I James, but what I can do is maintain that this experiment has never been repeated. If I claim that apples and oranges have something in common someone has to repeat the experiment that proves that such a comparison exist.

In this case (as far as I can Acertain) that has not been done. And that is the what seems strange about this scenario.

[Edited on 17-11-2002 by Toltec]

The way I see it is that the whole concept of some kind of afterlife is that it exists; Religious people would call it the continuance of the soul, while more science-minded would call it psychic residue. Either way you look at it, it still means that death of the body does *not* mean total oblivion of the personality; It's just two different methods of *describing* the situation.

If body-death means total oblivion, then how do you explain the *reliable & accurate* (IE: Couldn't be proven as a hoax) reports of ghosts & interaction with other "spirits"? So far, the hard sciences say that matter & energy can't be created or destroyed (As far as we've been able to find out), only changed into different forms; If this is true, what then happens to the "psychic (scientific)/spiritual (religious)" energy that made up our personalities? If the *destruction* of that energy is impossible, then that means the energy has been *converted* into another form; Hence, this becomes the psyche/spirit existance. Whether you're religious or not, it's hard to deny that *some form* of afterlife is apparent, you just call it by different names.

Other examples of having a relilgious or scientific description of what is likely to be the same thing: Prophecy/Precognition; Faith Healing/Psychic Healing...It just depends on what *term* you wish to use, but both sciences & religion are talking about pretty much the same thing. Parasciences have gone some ways into studying the phenomena, but like any other science there's still a long way to go before full *understanding* can be achieved; Conversely, the religious person also has a means to better understand what scriptures are trying to say to them, but still have no real *proof* of what they have faith in.

By breaking through the labels that make science & religion so different from each other, we can still talk about the same things without wasting a lot of time (& Simon's bandwidth) by pointless arguing. In other words, why waste time arguing over whether or not religion or science is right or wrong when they both address *the same basic questions of existance*?

Overall, in general, I wish we'd devote more equal resources to the Parasciences as compared to the Physical Sciences...IMO, we'd learn more with more of a *balance* between the two.

Originally posted by stewards
I was merely stating a prophetic fact.

What kind of timestream do you live in? Prophecy is something yet to happen (or not happen)...A guess on future events. It can't be *fact* until the event has occured (or the time passed without occuring). In other words "prohetic" & "fact" are two terms that are mutually exclusive.

Originally posted by stewards
Toltec
You could not educate me about religion even if you tried your best.

Yet, when the Bible mentions the word "sword" in that context, it doesn't actually *mean* missle...In the Bible, the context of using the word "sword" generally *means* "weapon" or "weapon of war". In other parts of the Bible, the "Hand of God" could mena either blessings bestowed or it could mean punishment, depending on the context of the passages surrounding that phrase.

In this context "sword" basically means a weapon of war...But there *are* more weapons of mass destruction other than "missle". Biological or Chemical weapons can also cause massive death-tolls in war. The person who actually experienced that vision probably only saw some kind of weapon in that vision, but he couldn't also *paint an actual picture* of what he saw...Using only the written word, he still had to use the terminology of his language to describe what he saw; At that period in time, "sword" was widely known as the most effective weapon of war that he knew other people would understand.

By trying to pin down a prophecy to such an exact specific seems to indicate that you let someone else give you their interpretation of scripture rather than letting the Holy Spirit guide you to your own interpretation. Unlike many doomsaying fundies, I don't let other people make up my mind for me as far as what I see in the scriptures themselves.

Other examples of having a relilgious or scientific description of what is likely to be the same thing: Prophecy/Precognition; Faith Healing/Psychic Healing...It just depends on what *term* you wish to use, but both sciences & religion are talking about pretty much the same thing. Parasciences have gone some ways into studying the phenomena, but like any other science there's still a long way to go before full *understanding* can be achieved; Conversely, the religious person also has a means to better understand what scriptures are trying to say to them, but still have no real *proof* of what they have faith in.

By breaking through the labels that make science & religion so different from each other, we can still talk about the same things without wasting a lot of time (& Simon's bandwidth) by pointless arguing. In other words, why waste time arguing over whether or not religion or science is right or wrong when they both address *the same basic questions of existance*?

Overall, in general, I wish we'd devote more equal resources to the Parasciences as compared to the Physical Sciences...IMO, we'd learn more with more of a *balance* between the two.

Originally posted by stewards
I was merely stating a prophetic fact.

What kind of timestream do you live in? Prophecy is something yet to happen (or not happen)...A guess on future events. It can't be *fact* until the event has occured (or the time passed without occuring). In other words "prohetic" & "fact" are two terms that are mutually exclusive because once an event happens, it's no longer Prophetic...It's Historical.

Originally posted by stewards
Toltec
You could not educate me about religion even if you tried your best.

Yet, when the Bible mentions the word "sword" in that context, it doesn't actually *mean* missle...In the Bible, the context of using the word "sword" generally *means* "weapon" or "weapon of war". In other parts of the Bible, the "Hand of God" could mena either blessings bestowed or it could mean punishment, depending on the context of the passages surrounding that phrase.

In this context "sword" basically means a weapon of war...But there *are* more weapons of mass destruction other than "missle". Biological or Chemical weapons can also cause massive death-tolls in war. The person who actually experienced that vision probably only saw some kind of weapon in that vision, but he couldn't also *paint an actual picture* of what he saw...Using only the written word, he still had to use the terminology of his language to describe what he saw; At that period in time, "sword" was widely known as the most effective weapon of war that he knew other people would understand.

By trying to pin down a prophecy to such an exact specific seems to indicate that you let someone else give you their interpretation of scripture rather than letting the Holy Spirit guide you to your own interpretation. Unlike many doomsaying fundies, I don't let other people make up my mind for me as far as what I see in the scriptures themselves.

As far as the "body-weight change at death" experiment goes, it would take quite a lot of arranging to produce any concrete info. For one, the experimenter would have to gain the permission of a fairly large number of death-bed patients to set them up on specially-constructed beds & continue to monitor them with other instruments as they slip into death. The *patients' permission* would be the key thing to aquire as to avoid potentially upsetting that patient's relatives. The key obstacle would be the patient's willingness to pass into death without having too many relatives present at the time of death & to be certain that those relatives *fully understand* that the patients themselves *want* to be so closely monitored at that stressful time.

If someone can actually pull off an experiment of this nature, I for one would be keenly interested in knowing the results...

Mr Midnight Dstroyer

When i said that I was merely stating prophetic fact, then I mean just this.

I believe that the last years of the world will be as exactly as the book of Revelations says it will be. It is the word of God, and it is impossible for God to lie.
whether or not the prophecy's have hapeppend it does not matter. For God it is quite simple for him to see into the future. Is there anything too hard for the Lord?.


Toltec, how are you friend.

You say you are educated, You have said this to me many times. But it is in fact your education that has blinded you to the truth of God's word.

The wisdom of this world is foolishness to god. Did Jesus or any of his diciples have any education?. Education means nothing to god. God calls the simple and humble so that they are teachable to his ways.

Also I am not preoccupied with death and destruction. But it does play a big part of Christs gospel. The entire Bible talks about death and destruction, and not just love and life. Ask yourself who has sent more people to their death than any other?. the answer is GOD. It is because of mans sin, rebellion and disobedience,

But yes, as it is written god will destroy people in their millions in his day of wrath. But it is only because people refuse to Repent.
But to those who do repent shall know and experience the love of god and recieve life eternal.

Bandit,

This statement....

"Some Dr's have sayed that each body lost +/- 20 gr.They don't know what is it, but they are sure. We have a weight lost of +/- 20 gr. It's happened only with humans, and they don't know what's going on. They can't give a good explanation. May be it's our soul... "


I'd like links or some more info about it please...

James G,

You'll have to ask that to ultra phoenix. He posted that...

[Edited on 18-11-2002 by TheBandit795]

Allowing only 1/4 of the earths population to survive does today means
Billions Steward. As far as education Jesus was far better educated than you seem aware. He was a sage Steward, in your world that probably means nothing. But in mine it means that he was far more intelligent as well as educated that you know. Who he picked as his apostles were also men and women who he understood were able to do the job.

Man primary disobedience to God is in killing and then claiming it was done in his name. God has killed no one, but has been blamed by humans and used as an excuse for killing and genocide. You interpret the bible as grounds for mass murder. You portray God as more than a conspirator to crimes against man.

Revelations can be interpreted as being a warning the Catholic church never heeded. And you are an example of what that behavior has resulted in, people who are incapable of respecting the beliefs of others. Who claim that God is responsible for more death than anything or anyone else.

That is wrong

God created the world and us.

who are we to say god cannot punish us for our acts?

are we worthy to be breathing?

we are arrogant, pridefull creatures that believe we are our own god.

also i dont think you here me correctly.

god said.

"" And if those days had ot been "shortened" no life
on earth will be left ""

So what he means is that he will intervene when the war hits.

And yes he will send a comet.

It will not destroy the world completely, only three forths.

how do i know??

I go by biblical interpretations, and by many, many, saints, and also the mother
of god who prophecied......

1. a third and final world war.

2. a comet from god.

this was by many many saints and mary.

you don't have to believe, but i do because these saints bore miracles.

non the less look in the future for these things.


1. THE VERI CHIP implant which is the mark of the beast.

2. THE third world war faught by the kings of the antichrist.

it says in revelation that the nations will form into ten world nations.

These natios have either formed or are forming right now.

When we go to war with iraq, havoc will break loose. if we get attacked again by terrorist
which indeed will eventually happen than riots, revolutions, economic problems will cause
massive havoc in little time.

thus what i call gods chastisement and a man made chastisement.


But look, toltec, stewards, tc, james.

You guys are brothers of god. No need for this type of arguing in these times.

All this fighting comes from the belief in jesus.

Im sitting here dead serious telling you who do not believe that you will recieve the sign of jesus
if living.

if this does not convert you to the one true religion than you truley do not want to believe.

i hope you will witness this sign.

peace.

Hey truth, of course a third world war will happen. I mean, come on, as long as there are different countries, there will eventually be a world war. That is common sense.

Same with comet. A comet wiped out dinosaurs. It also wiped out a era of amphibians. And did the same before that. And a comet(well, maybe astroid, all space junk) made the moon. So of course another one will hit. And damage depends on area hit.

Say, it hits the Indian Ocean. Western Hemisphere and Europe will be ok. But say it hits the antartic, melts a few billion gallons of water, we flood. Then the shift of weight of the planet will cause a change in it's orbit by changing the composition of the planet and where it is.

Ex: Two kids on a see saw. If one on very end and one as close to handle as can get, the one on end, even if only 100 while handle kid 160, will weigh down the seesaw. But then the handle kid suddenly move to end, his weight changes its force on the seesaw and the other kid goes up in the air. Now if it was spinning, well, someone gonna get hurt.

Well truth, using stuff that is going to happen, even without your god, as proof he here, doesn't work. That like saying another Ice Age will come proves him. People, there has been constant change in temputure for billions of years, it normal. It may be thousands of years away, and might even be lessened by technology, but will still happen.

Sorry, try using something that is far fetched, not something that is going to happen no matter what. Like zombies will rise and eat kill the sinners and leave people like you truth alone.(Zombies eat brains, people like truth left alone, put 1 and 1 together, of course, 1 and 1 equals 0,1,2,x, and 11, ask me how and I will answer all)

Please...Oh please post the verse that say's the veri-chip is the mark of the beast. For if the veri-chip IS mentioned BY NAME then the bible MUST be true, right?

Needless to say, there is NOTHING in the bible that can or ever will be interpreted as the veri-chip being the mark of the beast. You are more full of crap than a septic tank.

Look around you, Truth. We are NOT in the end of time's. Even with the possibility of a third world war, because of the technology we have today I doubt it will even effect us the way the last two had.

Wars are more of words and politics than fighting. During the time in Afganistan we spent time giving food and such to help them. We sit back puch a buton, and a bunch of missles fire and blow up the enemy. WWIII will happen, but not like the others. We will sit back and blow up the towelheads(I believe it will be us, canada, most of europe and russia vs Middle exempt Isreal) and so forth.

Nothing to worry about, technology isn't good, or bad. it's nuetral. How the person uses it is what it is. You use a car to go to work, good. Use it to run over your ex, bad.

Truth states

a third and final world war.

If its nuclear the roaches take over This has been proven beyond any shadow of doubt.

Truth states

a comet from god.

The smallest Comet is about as large as a city (like Manhattan) Roaches take over.

Truth states

who are we to say god cannot punish us for our acts?

Punishment sure, genocide is not punishment.

Toltec


I must say that you amaze me.

all those years of bible theology and scholarship yet you do not know how God punishes those who commit sin. Even though you say God punishes yet you deny that God destroys people or commits genocide.

The bible clearly states " the soul that sins shall DIE.


Here are some examples of Gods punishment on mankind.

God killed the first born of Egypt.

God destroyed the the egytian soldiers on chariots in the red sea.

God destroyed the hebrews who made the golden calf for worship.

While God was talking with moses at the top of the mountain, anyone who touched or fell against the bottom of the mountain died.

Anyone who looked into the Ark of the covenant Died.

Because of the sin of Achan, he and his family were destroyed.

God wiped out the 7 tribes of cannan, and gave that land to the hebrews.

God destroyed the 450 false prophets of Baal who went up against Elijah.

God told David to go and kill all the philistines.

God sent Gideon with 300 men out to war against thousands. God destroyed that army and preserved Gideon and his 300 men with not one casualty.

God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Now here is the big one, how many people did god destroy when he sent the flood?.


Shall I go on Toltec?. for I could, on and on and on. Its all written there in the bible, black and white.

The problem is people do not understand the seriousness of sin. When god judges he does it with vigour, and as in the examples he did not spare nor was there any mercy. God chooses who he has mercy on and who he will not. God is a God of love but if we say this to ourselves and continue to live in sin then god will Judge. This is his nature. God is unchanging also, he is the same yesterday, today and forever. He will continue to judge those who sin untill the last man on Earth is dead.

To those who repent and obey Gods word he gives us life, peace and joy. But to those who refuse the wayout that God has given us then only death awaits us, and because of this we shake our fists in Gods face, call him a murderer and say he is a hypocrite. When we have this attitude Satan laughs out loud, for he knows that our soul is heading straight for Hell. The one thing that kills man is his own PRIDE.