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Scientific proof that prayer works...

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posted on Nov, 15 2002 @ 07:45 PM
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This forum indulges in a lot of hot air and mindless theorising... but here is a case where the rubber hits the road...

God is ral, prayer works...


www.wired.com...


In July 1995, back when AIDS was still a death sentence, psychiatrist Elisabeth Targ and her co-researchers enrolled 20 patients with advanced AIDS in a randomized, double-blind pilot study at the UC San Francisco Medical Center. All patients received standard care, but psychic healers prayed for the 10 in the treatment group. The healers lived an average of 1,500 miles away from the patients. None of the patients knew which group they had been randomly assigned to, and thus whether they were being prayed for. During the six-month study, four of the patients died - a typical mortality rate. When the data was unblinded, the researchers learned that the four who had died were in the control group.

All 10 who were prayed for were still alive.

later in another experiment...

The research results showed that the subjects who were not prayed for spent 600 percent more days in the hospital. They contracted 300 percent as many AIDS-related illnesses.

That's a pretty sensationalistic way of saying those who were prayed for were a lot less sick. Here's the somewhat less-sensational way of framing the results: The control group spent a total of 68 days in the hospital receiving treatment for 35 AIDS-related illnesses. The treatment group spent only 10 days in the hospital for a mere 13 illnesses.

[Edited on 16-11-2002 by Netchicken]




posted on Nov, 15 2002 @ 07:54 PM
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NetChicken this only proves that when man "prays" you can in effect get some kind of benifit "or evil" from it. It doesn't prove that it is God acting upon the prayer.

Just like those huge evangelical things where everyone prays and someone is healed, my friend's dad told me it works, it isn't a hoax, but even he said he believes it is because humans have that power within them and when they all unite to and use it (praying) it can become VERY powerful.

But like-wise it doesn't disprove that it isn't god either, we really have no evidence for either, just evidence that it can work, why is left up to you


For now...

Sincerely,
no signature



posted on Nov, 15 2002 @ 08:38 PM
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Actually, this doesn't even prove that prayer work's or that god is real. Everyone's physioligy is different, even amongst those with aids. Sure, the number's look good, unfortunatly, there isn't anything tangible to even test. Have the researcher's posted any info on the control group's medical history compared to that of the other group? I'd be very interested in seeing this part of the study.

Thing's that are damn near impossible to prove:

Prayer
God
Afterlife
NDE
Reincarnation
OOBE
and just about every other friggan mystical crap that is clouding this friggan planet from becomming what it's SUPPOSED to be.

Get this sh|t out of your minds and grow up. We're in the 21st century, don't you think it's about time to give up the last of our primitive ways and encourage a scientific revolution?



posted on Nov, 15 2002 @ 08:42 PM
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What FM said is a more appropriate response NC. Truth is that seances
have often been debunked that way. This because of the fact that when you put several people in a room, concentrating on the same thing $&!# happens.



posted on Nov, 15 2002 @ 08:48 PM
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Actually I can prove Reincarnation....JamesG I just need a better way of voicing myself, once I am able to properly put my proofs into words I shall prove it to the WORLD!


And unlike most of my other claims this is an actually planned out and detailed explaination of the truth of reincarnation, thought out over the course of 10 or more years.

Sincerely,
no signature



posted on Nov, 15 2002 @ 08:54 PM
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JamesG
.

I pray for your soul and hope what I'm about to say does not happen to you.


but, When all the prophecies of the Book of Revelations come about I suggest that you collect up all those science manuals and books that you probably got and use them to start a fire with everyday.

Because God is going to shake this earth from the inside out, and when the earthquake comes and cracks your home in half your gonna need something to stay warm with.

I cant wait to see the day when God will wipe that grin off of all those athiest scientists. Not because I want to see anyone recieve the wrath of God, but just to see God finally proved throughout the Earth. For no man will withstand Gods judgement.



posted on Nov, 15 2002 @ 09:02 PM
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God can prove himself right now...this very minute. The fact that he'd rather destroy the whole world slightly disturbs me. I'm surprised that even religous people do not feel disturbed the way I do. You see your god as a just god. This is how you've come to know god. Those of us who don't, see it from a different angle. What you don't see, we do. Satan is looking like a damned saint right about now...



posted on Nov, 15 2002 @ 09:04 PM
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FM,

Please, please, please, have other 'proof' beyond the fact we have memories MUST mean we go somehwere after we die or get reincarnated. It can't be proven. There is no scientificly accepted evidence that I know of that says it's true.



posted on Nov, 15 2002 @ 09:05 PM
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LoL James I gave you a glimps of 10 years of work, it goes deeper than just memories, HOWEVER, you must figure out existance, remember, what I was trying to get across was not "memories" but the fact that without continued existance, we have NO future, NO past, and NO present.

Sincerely,
no signature



posted on Nov, 15 2002 @ 09:20 PM
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Methinks Netters is playing devil's advocate here: or, perhaps "proof" and "scientific" have been radically redefined when Estragon wasn't looking.

Estragon adds acid to metal filings and prays that hydrogen may be liberated: scientific proof of the efficacy of prayer!

Estragon adds tap-water to metal filings and prays that xenon may be liberated: scientific proof of the inefficacy of prayer!

...sigh...aaarrrrgh....keep up the good work N-C



posted on Nov, 15 2002 @ 09:21 PM
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Past, present, and future. These are terms of time. We ride our lives through time. Humans as individuals experiance time both physically and mentally. There will alway's be a past, present, and future after we die. Not for us. since we...well...die. The rest of the universe continues to exist even without us. If you look at the brain as science has proven it to be already, you would know that our concious, memories, personality, are all chemical, electrical, and genetic in nature. Now without a functional body to reside in after death, how do these physical things continue there existance, especially when the brain starts to decompose?



posted on Nov, 15 2002 @ 09:27 PM
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Stewards that the first thing that comes to mind is to burn of book is very disconcerting. Some very good reasons exist for this and there is one thing that we all can be certain. The lessons of History are apparent in relation to the kind of damage that does to people.

Even at this site



posted on Nov, 15 2002 @ 09:38 PM
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look, the power of the mind. Your prayer is a form of a sugar pill. They think they are taking something that will heal them, then they are. The mind is a very powerful thing. The mind can perform things that machines can't do.

Thought reading, psychokineases, seeing the future, psychomorpisim, all powers the mind can perform. Not the powers of god. Heck, I've been able to see the future and slight psychomorpism. Anyways, they may have thought god was going to help them, their mind fought. While othersthought well, I'm dead, and their mind gave up.



posted on Nov, 15 2002 @ 09:41 PM
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James the wave aspect (this in relation to electron spin) allows information about the past to remain in the present. That visions of the future exist, portends to travel not only in time but in space (earth at a different location in the future). It would seem the human condition has a T^2 component, who's form is akin to an appendage (but more complicated). The weight perceived as lost at death may in fact be redistributed. AS a result a response to issues of spiritualism and its apparent potentials. May be found in the knowledge that nothing is actually ever destroyed.

Next time you have a dream about the future consider all the variables.

[Edited on 16-11-2002 by Toltec]



posted on Nov, 15 2002 @ 09:46 PM
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In 4D there is no future all exist in the here and now. That is in as far as the reality we currently understand.

Steward no matter what happens I would never burn a book


Again Steward Grow up

[Edited on 16-11-2002 by Toltec]



posted on Nov, 15 2002 @ 11:48 PM
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Here is an interesting Clinical response

See link

Meditation and Cancer



posted on Nov, 15 2002 @ 11:57 PM
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Originally posted by JamesG
God can prove himself right now...this very minute. The fact that he'd rather destroy the whole world slightly disturbs me. I'm surprised that even religous people do not feel disturbed the way I do. You see your god as a just god. This is how you've come to know god. Those of us who don't, see it from a different angle. What you don't see, we do. Satan is looking like a damned saint right about now...


James, think, pride is a strong feeling. You are trying to compare your finite mind and understanding with an infinite mind and understanding. Stop and try to think about the mind that created the entire universe, all the laws both spiritual and physical, things that we don't even know that we don't know; You are tring to second-guess something that you or I are no comparison to. In this case, can you see that you would have no hope of understanding why things are as they are?
My favorite saying throught the years is the most dangerous position is to not know what you don't know. By realizing the importance of knowing that you don't even have a clue of what it is that you don't know you can jump light years ahead of where you were.



posted on Nov, 15 2002 @ 11:57 PM
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netchicken and stewaards.

Don't bother responding. you caan and will not prove god to them. they must
have open minds and hearts to believe in you.

let them argue back and forth on science. reality will come one day to the
entire world, and it will be too late to believe.


Let me just say prayer does work and ive seen it plenty of times.

ive seen cancer cured by prayers to jesus. not medicine, not treatment, but literally
after being cured out of "no" where the doctor was amazed and shocked.

why?

prayer cures if god wants it to be.

its something they cant see, the non believers.


Not once with this cancer thing but twice ive literally personally witnessed it.

they can neither prove me wrong nor say im lying, they don't know me or what ive seen.

God will be revealed in time, look for the cross in the sky atheist. and when you see this remember that this "will" be
your last chance and message from god to the world.

peace.



posted on Nov, 16 2002 @ 12:35 AM
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Thanks, Toltec!

I did not doubt for a moment that prayer worked -- but wanted to know if they'd done a study on prayers from other religions. My observations are that Wiccans burning candles and Christians and others praying are effective -- that the power of healing isn't tied up in just one religion.



posted on Nov, 16 2002 @ 01:30 AM
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Well truth, these were the sort of responses I expected ...

FM your leap of blindness astounds me ...


man "prays" you can in effect get some kind of benifit "or evil" from it. It doesn't prove that it is God acting upon the prayer.


And just what sort of force do you ascribe the healing to???? Where someone can be healed at a distance from merely been shown the photograph of the person?

We are not talking some localized effect but the abiltiy to 'transmit' healing to a person who is only identified by a picture on paper at an unknown location with an unknown phisiology....

If this is not God then give me a better explanation.

James all I can say is your comments reach your general level of contribution .. you didn't even read the article...


from article... It is widely acknowledged as the most scientifically rigorous attempt ever to discover if prayer can heal.



[Edited on 16-11-2002 by Netchicken]



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