Logiclock, do you think the only two options are entry level jobs or crime. That's BS. One can work their way up without college, and it is not unheard of for people to (GASP!!) start their own business. Regardless, education is not a God given right, and it sure as heck isn't the responsibility of you to pay for others' education. If you would like to donate to someone's education, fine, that is a great thing. As a matter of fact, I would be all about such charities were I allowed to keep my money, rather than the government deciding how much I should keep and where they should spend the money they stole from me.

As a matter of fact, I am aware that "rehabilitation" does not work, and that recidivism is very high. Education is not rehabilitation to begin with, you are merely making a more educated criminal. How can you "rehabilitate" those who have not been first "habilitated"?
As I have stated before, people have the ability to get educated, whether it is through the loans I took and had to pay back, working at the same time to eat and to feed my family, or through government programs that exist already. They do not wind up in prison because of a lack of education, and an education is not what will repair their lacking in morals and character.

As far as getting laid off, I am aware of that scene. You make your destiny, or you lie in excrement in self pity.
I'm not exactly working the field in which I trained; I haven't opened an avionics component in a long time. But I am still employed and still making a decent living. Is it because I thought about crime? No. Did my education have anything to do with that? Not any public education, higher or otherwise. That training came from home. And no government funded school can duplicate that.

I wouldn't want to live in a country ran by any of you freaks..

America isnt broken. There's little that can't be changed by changing the folk we send to Washington. It's the priorities and the lack of backbone. Lobbies wouldn't be so bad if politicans could stand up to them. Education wouldn't be so bad if we funded it. Forgein policy wouldn't be so bad if we had moral leaders. You guys see where I'm going. We elect the laws and the policy. If your politican doesn't vote how you want him to you can send him packing. The problem with America is apathy and we are lazy and we don't care about our neighbor anymore. We've become onlookers.

The problem with america is americans. If our country isn't running right it's our own damn fault.

What the heck are you talking about? We do fund education, Saph, wake up! Bad money is thrown after bad. It isn't the money, its the agenda. I want my son to know calculus, chemistry and world events, not how to put a condom on a cucumber and not that homosexuality is an alternative lifestyle and not a bunch of garbage that is pawned off as history that is propaganda for the left.
America isn't broken? You'd better hit the books and see how it was supposed to be, and compare it to how it is. Its way broken, lady. We strayed, we allowed government to get big, and we allowed those with no moral compass to choose the direction.

Honey.

We can't keep teachers because the pay is invisable nobody worth a damn wants to teach, and we can't keep schools open because we can't afford them. Each state has their own problems and surely you can vouch for the failing system in Alabama. Money is education. Its books-its salaries-its classrooms-its curriculum and programs. Its that calculus class you want your son in.

We could list all the problems and come up with eight hundred solutions but if the money aint there what is the point. The system is dying a slow death, and it's taking our society along with it, because we refuse to fund education even on the primary and secondary level. I haven't even started in on the high cost of higher education.

And like you I worked my way through college. I saw many people packing their bags because of money. It kills us to admit it, and it's going to be are stingy down fall. Because other nations see fit to offer decent public education. Even China is making strides in this department. We wanna fund the police stations before they fund the schools. Protect my property # my brain.--that sounded bad...oh well.



[Edited on 10-12-2003 by Saphronia]

Originally posted by Saphronia
Honey.

We can't keep teachers because the pay is invisable nobody worth a damn wants to teach, and we can't keep schools open because we can't afford them. Each state has their own problems and surely you can vouch for the failing system in Alabama. Money is education. Its books-its salaries-its classrooms-its curriculum and programs. Its that calculus class you want your son in.

We could list all the problems and come up with eight hundred solutions but if the money aint there what is the point. The system is dying a slow death, and it's taking our society along with it, because we refuse to fund education even on the primary and secondary level. I haven't even started in on the high cost of higher education.

And like you I worked my way through college. I saw many people packing their bags because of money. It kills us to admit it, and it's going to be are stingy down fall. Because other nations see fit to offer decent public education. Even China is making strides in this department. We wanna fund the police stations before they fund the schools. Protect my property # my brain.--that sounded bad...oh well.



[Edited on 10-12-2003 by Saphronia]

you know you dont have to work your way through college. im not going to. ill do 2 years and my my BA and a commission the the USAF. ill use my gi bill after 4 years in the air force (where ill knock out 2 years of college) and then ill hopefully get a ROTC schloarship in which theyll pay me a monthly tax free check. if any money comes outta my pocket itll be very small

Ivan, you don't know me, yet.

All war is murder.

I think that about sums it up, nice to meet you.

Originally posted by Saphronia
Honey.

We can't keep teachers because the pay is invisable nobody worth a damn wants to teach, and we can't keep schools open because we can't afford them. Each state has their own problems and surely you can vouch for the failing system in Alabama. Money is education. Its books-its salaries-its classrooms-its curriculum and programs. Its that calculus class you want your son in.

We could list all the problems and come up with eight hundred solutions but if the money aint there what is the point. The system is dying a slow death, and it's taking our society along with it, because we refuse to fund education even on the primary and secondary level. I haven't even started in on the high cost of higher education.

And like you I worked my way through college. I saw many people packing their bags because of money. It kills us to admit it, and it's going to be are stingy down fall. Because other nations see fit to offer decent public education. Even China is making strides in this department. We wanna fund the police stations before they fund the schools. Protect my property # my brain.--that sounded bad...oh well.



[Edited on 10-12-2003 by Saphronia]

No, Doll, money is not education. This is a fact, and its been proven since the 60's, now.
AS I've stated, and apparently I'll have to state again a little more clearer, the money is not the problem, whatthe money is wasted on is the problem. The stupid social reengineering courses are more important than the core courses that should have the emphasis. The school superintendants, as I've screamed about on another thread before, make more than the president of the united states of America, and that is only the local ones. I hate to think how much the state guy makes.

As far as cops, they aren't there to protect you, they are there to enforce the law in general. It is up to you to provide your own protection. That is not me, that is the U.S. Supreme Court, stated more than once.

Furthermore, you demand public education spending to increase, and I am against public education. Why? Because then the government controls the money, dictates the courses and rams their garbage down our throats. That, again, should be a local thing, for each community. Unlike common defense, public education is not one of the very limited things upon which the federal government is supposed to spend money

Originally posted by Saphronia
I wouldn't want to live in a country ran by any of you freaks..

America isnt broken. There's little that can't be changed by changing the folk we send to Washington. It's the priorities and the lack of backbone. Lobbies wouldn't be so bad if politicans could stand up to them. Education wouldn't be so bad if we funded it. Forgein policy wouldn't be so bad if we had moral leaders. You guys see where I'm going. We elect the laws and the policy. If your politican doesn't vote how you want him to you can send him packing. The problem with America is apathy and we are lazy and we don't care about our neighbor anymore. We've become onlookers.

The problem with america is americans. If our country isn't running right it's our own damn fault.

You are so right. I wouldn't want to live in a country run by the sons of Cain either. Unfortunately, we do. Everyone has the mentality of "I got mine. Screw you. Get it together, Jake."

And you're right again. More money should be funded to schools, day care, the elderly, drug programs for Rush Limbaugh, and other social programs to help those less fortunate in a first world country. However, all that money goes to the military industrial complex---over 50% of our tax dollars goes to means to kill our fellow man---usually with dark skin (Vietnam, Korea, Panama, Iraq, Grenada, Afganistan, Libya, El Salvador, etc)---to steal their resources.

Just remember: Every republican is an ammoral liar. They are eaters of the dead.They don't even bother spinning it anymore. They just stand there and lie right to your face. If you begin from that premise, then you can understand where they're coming from.



[Edited on 10-12-2003 by Colonel]

Colonel,m again, you are a pathetic liar capable only of stringing together hypocritical sentences and formulating inflamatory thoughts.

You just made a statement, saying the government should spend money in a stupid and wasteful manner, and right after I have explained to you that such programs are a violation of the constitution and indeed prevent the money from actually helping the most who need it by keeping money from being used at the local level.

You are the hypocrit. You want to give your money to the government so that it can be wasted? DO IT! But don't expect the rest of us to want to go along with it.

Show hwere your liberal, thieving, hypocritical suggestions are IAW the constitution, and I will in turn tear you out of the intellectual frame.

Your insults, suggesting that the republican attitude is " I got mine, you got yours" is nothing but an empty insult, and you know it fully. You want to give handouts indescriminately so that you can control a certain segment of the nation and insure a locked in democratic/liberal vote, and to insure a divided nation.

I know I sound a bit angry in reference to this issue, but I feel it is with good reason. We have allowed a money and power hungry government go awry, and many seem tocheer the fact that we have lost our bearing and are wanting the government to steal both our wealth as well as our liberty so that it may parcel it back out to those it wants, as it sees fit. James Madison would be ashamed.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Colonel,m again, you are a pathetic liar capable only of stringing together hypocritical sentences and formulating inflamatory thoughts.

You just made a statement, saying the government should spend money in a stupid and wasteful manner, and right after I have explained to you that such programs are a violation of the constitution and indeed prevent the money from actually helping the most who need it by keeping money from being used at the local level.

You are the hypocrit. You want to give your money to the government so that it can be wasted? DO IT! But don't expect the rest of us to want to go along with it.

Show hwere your liberal, thieving, hypocritical suggestions are IAW the constitution, and I will in turn tear you out of the intellectual frame.

Your insults, suggesting that the republican attitude is " I got mine, you got yours" is nothing but an empty insult, and you know it fully. You want to give handouts indescriminately so that you can control a certain segment of the nation and insure a locked in democratic/liberal vote, and to insure a divided nation.

The U.S. Constitution begins: "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the genreral Welfare, and secrue the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and estalish this Contitution for the United States of America."

Read what I posted in the political scandal forum.

General Welfare did not mean what the government calls general Welfare today, and if you have had any learning about the constitution, you already know that. As a matter of fact, how dare you try and use the words of true patriots and great men in order to excuse and bolster your love for a huge, money and liberty stealing monster federal government!

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Your insults, suggesting that the republican attitude is " I got mine, you got yours" is nothing but an empty insult, and you know it fully.

The truth hurts huh? Well, if you lie down with dogs you wake up with flees. If you sit with canabals you lose your humanity...which is probably what's happening to you. You sit at the table of death with the rest of your brothers in Cain, the repugnants, and eat Iraqi baby flesh as you cheer the slaughter of Iraqi Liberation.

Shock & Awe? These people are going to burn in hell.

This whole military invasion is a war crime, sponsored by the Bush Crime Family. Do you understand that?
These eaters of dead flesh are destroying America with this invasion. This slaughter is being done in the name of the United States of America! Do you think you can avoid your share of the blood and immorality as Bush and his Haliburton buddies carve up Iraq like ghouls carving up a body that is still twitching?

For the first time in my life, I am ashamed to be an American.


[Edited on 11-12-2003 by Colonel]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Read what I posted in the political scandal forum.

General Welfare did not mean what the government calls general Welfare today, and if you have had any learning about the constitution, you already know that. As a matter of fact, how dare you try and use the words of true patriots and great men in order to excuse and bolster your love for a huge, money and liberty stealing monster federal government!

I understand that and agree. But, the government has SOME repsonsiblity to benefit the people, rich and poor---particularly if they will tax us so.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Logiclock, do you think the only two options are entry level jobs or crime. That's BS. One can work their way up without college, and it is not unheard of for people to (GASP!!) start their own business.

In order to start your own business, you need money or loans. I know this from experience. And both are hard to get - you need to prove that you have an education, or you have the assets to cover the banker's risk. If you read my post, I didn't say that those were the only two options available - I said to most people, which is true. Try "working" your way up at a McDonalds (Managers top out around $9), or a Manager job at a supermarket. In order to enter middle-management, a college degree is a virtual requirement. They want people to make educated decisions and understand the implications.

Even the US military follows the same pattern. As an enlisted man, the highest you can go is Sergent (I'm aware of officer's training school, but your chances are much higher with college). Go to college, and you can go in as an officer directly. It's like the model of corporate America. Everyone wants educated people.

Regardless, education is not a God given right, and it sure as heck isn't the responsibility of you to pay for others' education. If you would like to donate to someone's education, fine, that is a great thing. As a matter of fact, I would be all about such charities were I allowed to keep my money, rather than the government deciding how much I should keep and where they should spend the money they stole from me.

OK! So write the government a check to refund your $4k that they gave you in tuition reimbursement, since it's unethical for others to finance your education. After all, that $4k was stolen from someone else along the food chain. They sure didn't get it from the inmates.

As a matter of fact, I am aware that "rehabilitation" does not work, and that recidivism is very high. Education is not rehabilitation to begin with, you are merely making a more educated criminal. How can you "rehabilitate" those who have not been first "habilitated"?

That's ridiculous, and you know it. Without rehabilitation, prisoners are guarenteed to come out the same. With rehabilitation, you at least have a chance of making them better people. Not every prison sports outstanding rehab stats, but some do.

As I have stated before, people have the ability to get educated, whether it is through the loans I took and had to pay back, working at the same time to eat and to feed my family, or through government programs that exist already. They do not wind up in prison because of a lack of education, and an education is not what will repair their lacking in morals and character.

College isn't guarenteed to keep you out of prison, but remember: I said it was the 'best way' to make people into better citizens. I'm sure you'd love the idea about state-run morality schools. And you can't force parents to teach kids morals, so what's your idea? The least you can do is to invest in their minds and hope that they make better decisions as a result.

As far as getting laid off, I am aware of that scene. You make your destiny, or you lie in excrement in self pity.
I'm not exactly working the field in which I trained; I haven't opened an avionics component in a long time. But I am still employed and still making a decent living. Is it because I thought about crime? No. Did my education have anything to do with that? Not any public education, higher or otherwise. That training came from home. And no government funded school can duplicate that.

I don't care that I was laid off from those jobs. They were all dead-end. But I'm missing your point on how it relates to college. If I understand you right, you're saying "College doesn't make you a better person, and nobody should be under any obligation to support it." Right? You can't deny that college gave you more options for success. It's these other options for success that make life easier and take away some of the temptation for criminal behavior.

When you get a degree and you're on a career track, chances are you have more to lose than someone who doesn't. If you look at the statistics, there's a direct relationship between violent crime and lack of education, and there's no way to spin those numbers.


[Edited on 11-12-2003 by logiclock]

James Madison said: "With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."

Are you smarter than the Father of the Constitution? No, Colonel, you are not! Did you create the constitution? No, you did not! Are you wanting to twist the document to fit your thieving ideas? Yes, you are.

First things first, logiclock, why do you think I owe the state of Alabama $4k for tuition reimbursement?

Originally posted by Saphronia
Ivan, you don't know me, yet.

All war is murder.

I think that about sums it up, nice to meet you.

well get used to it cause its not going to go away. china seems likely to start WWIV.

And further,

I read your post, LT. You are now adding to it. What business did you start? I know guys who have low startup lawn care services that are bringing in some serious Jack. That is just one example. And, even if education is a need, go and get it! You don't have to get it at others' expense. Its your life, make your priorities, set your goals and go after them.
You're comparing the military to corporate America to creating your own business? Your thoughts are convoluted. Regardless, it does not take the government, ie., the taxpayers, to pay for your college. I have my own family to worry about, I cannot afford to worry about yours. Were you not so taxed by a monstrous government, maybe you could pursue your dreams more easily.

As far as rehabilitation, I doubt much has changed in the last 11 years when it comes to human nature. No, giving an education does not change a human. As a matter of fact, according to your reasoning, corporate, white collar crime is a myth.

Even if it were a fact, is it "fair" (I know liberals are all about fairness) that I have to pay for both the tuition of a criminal that had all the advantages I had when growing up (public education, free lunches, free transportation to and from school, welfare for the families, etc.) as well as my own familiy? No, I do not think so. The payoff for responsibility should not be to subsidize the degenerates of society, beyond prison costs.
By the way, while my family was not at all well to do, as a matter of fact, we ate cheap stuff on a regular basis that most nowadays would not eat on a camping trip, we did not do the welfare thing. As far as the public education, there wasn't really a thing called home-schooling, and my parents abided by the law and sent us to school.
Speaking of which, while I was a correctional officer (To answer your earlier ignorant question, the inmates got free education, not the correctional officers) I saw a few people with whom I went to public school. While I wore blue, they wore white, with numbers on their shirts. What was the difference? Why, when I went to the military and served my country and went on from there, they decided to be dirtbags? I don't know, but education didn't help up to that point.
No, your are quite wrong. College doesn't make you "better citizens" but it can very well make you a better criminal. College does not create character. Far from it.

I am in no way saying an education is a bad thing, not at all. If you want it, go and get it. You already have gotten some, but there is more to get, so go for it! I am! But we should not expect the taxpayers to pay for it.

Now, let's say that the feds haven't violated the constitution 6 ways from Sunday and we weren't spending money in numerous other ways we shouldn't be, then would it be such a heavy burden to do this unconstitutional thing (No matter how you play with the words, it would be unconstitutional)? Maybe not. But, you see, this money people want to spend doesn't come from nowhere, it comes from the taxpayers. You know, the ones who are at the same time trying to pay for their own way through this world.

All war may be murder, but all participants are NOT murderers. That is what you need to get through your sweet and loving mind. We cannot help that there are those that want to kill us and terminate our way of life, but we have to take steps to defend ourselves, and items like mace just won't do the trick.