Netty, I see some of your points, but take issue with some, as well.
I notice you mention the loggers. You mean the ones who aren't able to properly manage the forests because of some poorly educated enviro-whackos think cutting a tree down is a sin, so we saw one of the worst fire years in decades? Some lobbying, huh. Your point, as far as lobbying, is understood, but you are shooting in the wrong direction.

As far as a militaristic society, be glad we are as we are. That means less of the rest of the free world has to spend the cash on it that we do.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
But, we are talking about the costs the hardworking citizens face, I was talking about the additional costs, the cost of paying for criminals' tuition while they are in college. I, not any other honest citizen, should be asked to pay the price for criminals to get free education.

As I said (and everyone seemed to skip right over it), if you qualify for welfare, you qualify for a program called JTPA, and other programs like it. We already have programs, and they cost enough as it is.

As I said, it is ok to work through college. You walked over used condoms in the parking lot? I walked around in a world where the bad guys outnumbered the good guys 70/1, we had sticks, they had shanks. I survived. You survived. Somewhere tonight, somebody in an expensive SUV will die on a "safe" highway. Life is tough, but that does not mean that some should get a free pass, especially if that some are criminals and are already costing the citizenry good money. Keep my comments in context.

For kids that can't go to college, there are two basic options: 1) Work a McJob that doesn't provide them with a living wage, or 2) Do something illegal and make lots of money. Which is the more attractive solution if they can't go to college? After they get out, and after seeing the grim prospects for a decent job in light of their criminal record, do they not go back to a life of crime, repeating the process? Do we lock them up forever? Fry them? Or do we try to rehabilitate them?

TC, I see your point: honest citizens are not rewarded as much as criminals. Two things to consider. One: I don't think any person commits a crime to get college money, and two: don't we want to rehabilitate them?

I'm sure you are aware that rehabilitation works. There is a famous prison in Illinois/Indiana (can't remember which one) that has an impressive record of convicts earning degrees. I think emerging from prison with a degree is better than emerging with bigger muscles and more criminal connections.

Yes, I had to work through college. I also didn't get any tuition reimbursement. I'd wager that the part of town I worked in was just as dangerous, if not more, than the prison you worked in. I had knives pulled on me. I saw cops running through the parking lot with guns. And for all my effort, I got no proverbial "pats on the back" for what I did. In fact, I got laid off. My situation is an all-too-common one, and a lot of people don't see the bigger picture; it's the job of us fortunate ones to show them.

[Edited on 9-12-2003 by logiclock]

One more thing: in the last two years, a law was passed that denied students federally funded financial aid for college if they had any drug conviction (this includes smoking a joint or misusing prescriptions). Not answering the question on the form resulted in an automatic denial.

Are we not encouraging them to view drugs (selling) as an alternative to an education?

I'm saying we all need educational opportunities, regardless if you've robbed a bank or been a choirboy. With the current state of the world (and our economy), we can't afford to deny anyone an education. The process repeats itself if we don't, and we get more criminals.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
And Colonel, you sound like a punk kid jeering because his pal had the snappy comeback of "I know you are, but what am I?"

Thanks. I do think my comeback was pretty damn snappy.

[Edited on 9-12-2003 by logiclock]

[Edited on 9-12-2003 by logiclock]

They only way to fix America is not vote for Bush in the next election.

i think we all gotta put aside our petty differences, stop fighting over our religious and political affiliations, and start working together. i personally believe that we can all learn from our differences no matter what affiliation we have and can make a huge difference here if we do so. i think that must be done before we can get anywhere in fixing this country up.

[Edited on 9-12-2003 by mutehalo]

Originally posted by drunk
They only way to fix America is not vote for Bush in the next election.

Yeah, that's the only fix. Wrong...

The impression that I get from most people on this board seem to think these problems only started in 2000. These problems go farther back than Bush or Clinton. They have been around for years. You can't blame Bush or Clinton for everything.

Personal responsibility is something that doesn't exist any longer. The bulk of the issue is that most people are lazy and want something for nothing. Most of our political leaders seem to think that as well. It's a shame.

If you have to work 2 jobs to pay for college, so what. It builds character and makes you a stronger person. You come to appreciate more as you get older, believe me, I know.

Originally posted by Dr. Know

Originally posted by drunk
They only way to fix America is not vote for Bush in the next election.

Yeah, that's the only fix. Wrong...

The impression that I get from most people on this board seem to think these problems only started in 2000. These problems go farther back than Bush or Clinton. They have been around for years. You can't blame Bush or Clinton for everything.

Personal responsibility is something that doesn't exist any longer. The bulk of the issue is that most people are lazy and want something for nothing. Most of our political leaders seem to think that as well. It's a shame.

If you have to work 2 jobs to pay for college, so what. It builds character and makes you a stronger person. You come to appreciate more as you get older, believe me, I know.

Of course these problems started before Clinton and Bush people dont want to make the same mistake as in the past so making sure Bush isnt in office for another term is a must.

Originally posted by drunk
They only way to fix America is not vote for Bush in the next election.

well that wont happen. he'll win because the DNC dont have anyone that can beat him. and all they do is bash him.

Originally posted by KrazyIvan

Originally posted by drunk
They only way to fix America is not vote for Bush in the next election.

well that wont happen. he'll win because the DNC dont have anyone that can beat him. and all they do is bash him.

good point ivan.

there is nobody good enough to replace Bush.

also the demoncrackers cant get their acts together for this election!

Originally posted by Russian
If you DONT believe me then go RESEARCH!!!!

I called you out on this one. You find it and show it to me. I already know it's total BS. Half my family lives in CA.

So, you're claiming that, if you live in a cardboard box, have no job, haven't had a job in forever, and have no dependants, CA will give you $13K/yr?

Once again, which social services program is this? Surely it has a name.

[Edited on 12-9-2003 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Russian

Originally posted by KrazyIvan

Originally posted by drunk
They only way to fix America is not vote for Bush in the next election.

well that wont happen. he'll win because the DNC dont have anyone that can beat him. and all they do is bash him.

good point ivan.

there is nobody good enough to replace Bush.

also the demoncrackers cant get their acts together for this election!

There is 1 candidate a Governor ARNEEE!

Originally posted by Satyr

Originally posted by Russian
If you DONT believe me then go RESEARCH!!!!

I called you out on this one. You find it and show it to me. I already know it's total BS. Half my family lives in CA.

So, you're claiming that, if you live in a cardboard box, have no job, haven't had a job in forever, and have no dependants, CA will give you $13K/yr?

Once again, which social services program is this? Surely it has a name.

[Edited on 12-9-2003 by Satyr]

"I was in Nebraska, and I met some guys on freight trains," one man said. "They said, 'Hey, let's go to San Francisco. They give you a check.' I said, 'Why do they give you a check?' They said, 'Because you're homeless.' I said, 'I don't believe this.'"

a homeless talking to a homeless...

I think the best way to "fix" AmeriKKKa would be to scrap the system, and start over.

Special interest groups need to go away. I'm tired of hearing "gay rights" this and "minority rights" that, people are people no matter how gay or not white they are, shouldn't all the people be working for equal rights if in fact all people are equal?

Secondly, the cost of college education is ridiculous, since February of 2002, the college I attend has had tuition go up 3 times, however I can't get a bigger student loan, and none of my jobs are into the idea of an extra 50 cents an hour to help cover my tuition. Some incentive.

Third, people need to give up their "lesser of two evils" mentality when selecting a candidate to vote for. A lot of people have good ideas, but do not carry the "republican" or "democrat" backing in the primaries and caucuses.

Fourth, alternative energy sources need to be researched and instituted.

Fifthly, churches should not be non-taxed organizations. They have income. Income tax is unconstitutional as hell, but everyone who has a job pays it. Church should also be seperate from state, because in an ethnicly diverse society, it's borderline immoral to have a state's policies permeated with or favoring one religion.

Sixth--Reagan, I hate to break it to ya, but your war on drugs didn't work. Everyone knows the war on drugs, Reagan had it and now you can't get drugs anymore. I suspect the same thing is probably true about terrorism as well, after this war, there will be no more terrorists *SARCASM*. As someone posted on the board earlier, the KKK is still alive, well, and plotting hate crimes. Some dudes in Texas got busted with a cyanide bomb and assault rifles. Maybe we should start looking inward for terrorism rather than looking overseas.

Seventh--The "if you don't like it, leave the US" attitude has to go. The US was founded by people who simply did not like British rule. Freedom of speech is protected, so if someone wants to speak out against the president, let them do it. It's constitutionally protected. Freedom of speech has more to do with speaking out against the government and their policies than it ever had to do with slandering another person on the basis that you don't like what they said. One of the redeeming features of this experiment gone bad is the ability for things to change. If a policy isn't liked, the citizens have the right to speak out against it, contact their representatives or senators, and try to get enough support to try to change it.

Eighth--For some strange reason, I think an individual knows what's best for them better than big corporations, government agencies, or hollywood and other media outlets do. Less emphasis should be put on things like "smoke these cigarettes, drink this coffee, wear these pants, watch this movie, watch this tv show, watch the news here".

Ninth--Lose the PATRIOT Act. It's a piece of #. PATRIOT II shouldn't even be allowed to come to vote. Look at the board for more information about these pieces of crap.

10--Lose the Electoral College. One voice, one vote. Direct democracy will work if people will cut the partisanship # out and vote for the candidate that they think will perform the job best. Let the voice of the people be heard instead of the Electors doing what they think will be best.

11--Quit taxing everything!!!! Overtaxation is one of the things that led to the first AmeriKKKan revolution. You get taxed on income, taxed to purchase, taxed when you die, it's a bit ridiculous.

12--Stop giving airtime to the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons of the world. Fundamentalism begets fundamentalism, hate begets hate, and some of the hate that these folks and other like them spew is insane.

Finally--The movement of the people, by the people, for the people worked well, for a while, but it's fairly obvious in a lot of people's eyes that the system is broken. I say give back what has been taken, the ability to be free. I don't mean free as in "quit working, do drugs, kill people" freedom. I mean the freedom to be an individual, to pursue your life as you wish without having the government interfere with every aspect. I apologize for the length of this post, I didn't realize that I'd sit here and type for over a half hour on this topic.

Originally posted by Dr. Know

Originally posted by drunk
They only way to fix America is not vote for Bush in the next election.

Personal responsibility is something that doesn't exist any longer. The bulk of the issue is that most people are lazy and want something for nothing. Most of our political leaders seem to think that as well. It's a shame.

If you have to work 2 jobs to pay for college, so what. It builds character and makes you a stronger person. You come to appreciate more as you get older, believe me, I know.

Most people are lazy? This whole country is based on the Protestant Work Ethic. Our lives revolve around the 8 hour workday; that's how we came to be the most productive country in the world. Polls show that most Americans believe the quantity of stuff we have is greater than our quality of life. We have tons of bright, shiny things, but they're used to make up for what we're lacking socially and spiritually.

I think too much emphasis is placed on production and work; that's a big reason video games and TV are raising the nation's children - parents are too busy working. And we're working because big business makes us. I don't agree with the widespread laziness argument. American productivity is at an all time high.

Actually, I worked a total of nine jobs to make it through college. That's ridiculous. I guess "anything that doesn't kill you makes you stronger," but that argument is a cop-out; it's an excuse to legitimize any problem. If I ate macaroni & cheese every day for three years, I'd appreciate steak better - but that doesn't mean that I should have to do it. I'd like to see the next generation not have to do what I did, because there are far better options for character building.

I got to disagree with number 10 (a little), the nation was founded on the state sovereignty princple.

College Education is increasing because of the fact degrees have a monopoly on the hiring process. We need to stop sending so many to college. (got to figure out something).

make political parties illegal, go for state primaries and public funding.

defintely diversify education and media control.

Originally posted by Russian
"I was in Nebraska, and I met some guys on freight trains," one man said. "They said, 'Hey, let's go to San Francisco. They give you a check.' I said, 'Why do they give you a check?' They said, 'Because you're homeless.' I said, 'I don't believe this.'"

a homeless talking to a homeless...

My cousin is homeless, or has been for many years. I'll ask her how much money she gets for it, next time I hear from her.

Originally posted by NuTroll
College Education is increasing because of the fact degrees have a monopoly on the hiring process. We need to stop sending so many to college. (got to figure out something).

make political parties illegal, go for state primaries and public funding.

Limiting college attendance because of market forces is the kind of thinking that gets us into trouble in the first place. If you view college just as a way to add some digits to a paycheck, you're missing my points. College prepares us to think critically, and for ourselves -something that's desperately needed these days. It promotes understanding of other ways of life. It trains us to be informed, rational, clear-headed citizens.

Political parties made illegal? I think that's a virtual pre-requisite to fascism. The best way is to promote variety, not the opposite.


[Edited on 10-12-2003 by logiclock]

demoracy promises only equality of opertunity not conditions. equality of conditions is communism!