What Special Operations training is the toughest?

My vote for best special ops training is the seals sure anyone can teach their troops like the spetnaz get trained to kill everything that walks not obey Geneva rules and just be ruthless and do illegal stuff but a good soldier or commando is one that has discipline and respect for the rules while at the same time completes the mission that is why i vote for the S.E.A.L.S.


[edit on 22-7-2004 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
My vote for best special ops training is the seals sure anyone can teach their troops like the spetnaz get trained to kill everything that walks not obey Geneva rules and just be ruthless and do illegal stuff but a good soldier or commando is one that has discipline and respect for the rules while at the same time completes the mission that is why i vote for the S.E.A.L.S.

Are you serious? The SEALs are notorious for brutal tactics used during the vietnam war, same with special forces. I'm not saying that all of our guys do that #, but to say that the SEALs are more diplomatic than any other special operations unit is wrong...all of these units are the best in the world for one main reason: They break the rules. You just don't hear as much about it when the US does it.

[edit on 22-7-2004 by Shoktek]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
My vote for best special ops training is the seals sure anyone can teach their troops like the spetnaz get trained to kill everything that walks not obey Geneva rules and just be ruthless and do illegal stuff but a good soldier or commando is one that has discipline and respect for the rules while at the same time completes the mission that is why i vote for the S.E.A.L.S.


[edit on 22-7-2004 by WestPoint23]

the navy seals dont follow rules just like every special forces unit. what happens in the field stays in the field.
also i have no doubt the SEAL's are almost as good as the SAS but they lack the stmaina to do the mission, and they aint no where near SBS standards

In order of severity:

1. British SAS

2. Navy SEALs

3. Army CAG

4. Russian Spetznaz

5. Israel Special Forces

6. Australian SAS

7. Canadian JTF

8. Marine Force Recon

9. Army Rangers


Everything else after that is pretty much the same, give or take.

I can tell you one thing, though. BUD/S #ing sucks. I went through it back in 2001, Class #237, and let me tell you...


Mr. M

[edit on 23-7-2004 by StarChild]

[edit on 23-7-2004 by StarChild]

also i have no doubt the SEAL's are almost as good as the SAS but they lack the stmaina to do the mission, and they aint no where near SBS standards

As soon as I see the SAS or SBS do 5 mile open ocean swims with rebreathers and full combat gear, I might concede that they are as tough as the Navy SEALs.

Or if I hear that they are now doing 14 mile runs for fun, not just hiking in the hills.

Originally posted by COOL HAND

also i have no doubt the SEAL's are almost as good as the SAS but they lack the stmaina to do the mission, and they aint no where near SBS standards

As soon as I see the SAS or SBS do 5 mile open ocean swims with rebreathers and full combat gear, I might concede that they are as tough as the Navy SEALs.

Or if I hear that they are now doing 14 mile runs for fun, not just hiking in the hills.

What's up, LT? Busy as always I assume. Same here...

As far as the SAS vs. SEAL thing goes, trust me, the SAS training is much harder. Why you might ask?

Well, the SAS instructors do not have any "training guidelines" or "SOPs" that they use. They can beat you, etc. You name it, they can do it.

On the other hand, the SEALs have a very strict SOP dictating what can and cannot be done during training. The instructors cannot physically touch you, or make you do anything outside of those guidelines.

Also, the BUD/S training SOP is written by some of the best psychologists in the world. No one wrote any guidelines for SAS school, besides what areas of expertise they want the instructors to emphasize, like shooting, E & E, land nav, demo, etc.


Mr. M

definatley the SAS/SBS

Without any shadow of a doubt!

Every Single country/agency and outfit at sometime or other has received specialist training from the Div's of SAS/SBS.

The guys are the Daddy's !

Their reputation demands it!

Regards

Boon_Dog

There is no such unit "Isayeret", where did you get this from?

Sayeret, or PALSAR (Plugat Siur) is the Hebrew word for "Recon Unit".

There are many Sayarot in Israel, the best of them are probably Sayeret Shaldag (which belongs to the IAF) and MATKAL (MATKAL is the unit responsible for the Entebbe Rescue Operation).

One of the best units in Israel is Shayetet 13, which is like the Israeli Navy SEALs.

Each of those units have dozens of operations each year (almost all of them are highly classified), and about zero casualties. MATKAL and Shaldag probably were also involved in the gulf war (in both of them)

There are many other SF units here, but those are the famous ones.

heres a qoute from a SAS soldier "Out of the 150 Regular Officers and Soldiers that start SAS selection it is unusual for more than 20 to pass, and often considerably fewer get through"
the SBS is better than the SAS ,fact not fiction.
the SBS is smaller about a 10th of the size of the SAS which leaves them with 90-100 men with an average age of 23.
to be in them you have to served for 2 years
link one
link 2
link 3
the fact is no one really knows what the selction process is because they are so secret.

"Recruits must be Royal Marines Commandos with at least three years service. They will have started off their careers with the 30-week initial stint at the Commando Training Centre or the 15-month Young Officers Course, mostly at the same establishment. Later they may have had further training in signals, heavy weapons, sniping etc. Those wishing to join the SBS must first go through a two-week aptitude test, which consists of the following:

Boating Week. Candidates must

pass a combat fitness test
pass the SBS swimming test, which demands 600m in 15 minutes , 50m clothed with weapon and belt kit, and 25m underwater.
Complete all canoe trials, including a 5km march with Bergen and canoe and 30km canoe paddle.


Diving Week. Complete a number of dives, generally show confidence and willingness to dive.

Those successful will go on to the joint SAS/SBS selection course

Brecon Beacons phase (3 weeks)- land navigation marches with Bergen and weapon, culminating in " long drag". The majority who drop out will do so in this phase.
Pre-jungle training(2 weeks)- working in four-man patrols.
Jungle Training, Brunei (6 weeks).
Officer week/signals training (1 week).
Support Weapons Training (1 week).
Army Combat Survival Instructor Course (2 weeks)- survival, evasion, resistance, escape; well-known for its harsh Resistance To Interrogation training; the last phase where many will be " binned".
Continuation training takes place mainly at Hereford

Demolitions (2 weeks)
Observation Post Training (1 week)
CQB Course (2 weeks)
Individual Skills Courses (8 weeks)- during this time men will undergo training as Special Forces medics or signallers, or further demolitions training. Officers attend language training and a Special Forces commander's course.
Static Line Parachute Course (3 weeks)- for those who are not qualified paratroopers.
SBS students go on to their own 8-week boating and diving course, including underwater navigation and demolition, negotiating surf zones and navigating a 55km course in the Klepper canoe, and infiltration via submarine. Following this Marines are rated as Swimmer Canoeist Class 3, and entitled to wear the badge of this specialist qualification on the left cuff of their blue and green dress uniforms, " SC" over a wreath."

from specialoperations.com

so there we go!

SBS and SAS Rule!!!!



Not that i am bias of course!

Regards

BoonDOG

well the SAS are second to the SBS but both rule yes

Im with the last 2, SAS/SBS... Not because im from Britain either their reputation in the field has nothing on the training they're put through.

All this talk about who is the best trained is crap. It comes down to one thing and one thing only. How a man handles himself in combat. I have sparred with Spetsnaz fighters and they are good combat fighters but this means nothing if I am hosing you down with an M4. If it comes down to a knife fight or hand 2 hand anyone will be brutal to survive and who can say who will win?

You'll find it interesting to note that Spetsnaz training reflects around knife defense against a Marine kabar knife. As the marine units are those the Russians knew they would face in combat on a large scale not unit to unit. Amercians especially SAS have too much experience in the way of small unit tactics. Do you actually think we go to war for democracy? We go to make money and to train our troops.

Brutality means nothing unless your captured during an E&E. When the adrenalin is pumping your just shooting and hauling ass. 2 years training is the rotation spetsnaz receive. In fact every six months they are rotated. Too much rotation to units. The russians do this to better train their force as a whole - for non-coms. Which tells you there are very few battallions actually seeing any combat at all. Which is why countries go to war - REAL experience.

I don't care if your Delta, SBS, SEAl, GROM, Spetsnaz, Force Recon, or whatever, if you have no combat experience your just another virgin soldier. All the BS goes right out the window when bullets start whizzing by you. The most experienced COMBAT teams whether be a 10th mountain division or a damn green jacket will win. You have to know how the bullets fly and how to recognize the ground around you, when to duck, when to run, survive long enough until your instinct tells you when to drop to a knee.

Training is just a way of making the man not care, physically fit, weapons oriented, and lust for combat, who cares in which method it is done. The training of course must be the best the service has to offer to keep the soldier alive in todays do-dads and all. The best will always be those who train continuously and are COMBAT experienced who continue to go on ops. You say a guy is bad ass because his seargent kicks his ass 10 times a day. He's not bad ass - hes pissed off, but that doesn't make a good soldier just a pissed off one who hates the military.

Pushing out puppy dog eyes and having pig guts thrown on you as you swim through mud, all a joke, compared to a dead bloated body staring you in the face and being hunted by a sizable force intent on making you look like that bloated body.

Holding a log over your head for an hour, doing 5 mile ocean swims, and running 40 kilometers with a 44lb pack doesnt make you a killer it just prepares you physically for a continuous adreanlin rush that wipes out your vitamins turning you into a 130lb skin and bone, hallowed eye, veteran. Survive combat with a buddy for 48 hours straight and all that tabbing is the easiest thing you ever done. I'd rather be next to an ordinary seasoned combat veteran who can run the mile in 9minutes in combat rather than an untested 5minute mile bad ass spetsnaz or SEAL. I sure can tell you who will survive and who won't...

Originally posted by vincere7
All this talk about who is the best trained is crap. It comes down to one thing and one thing only. How a man handles himself in combat. I have sparred with Spetsnaz fighters and they are good combat fighters but this means nothing if I am hosing you down with an M4. If it comes down to a knife fight or hand 2 hand anyone will be brutal to survive and who can say who will win?

Well put. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Mr. M

[edit on 7-10-2004 by Banshee]

I read most of the replies evrybody wrote and then everybody started talking bout Intenational comparrisons.....and i would like to know where the South African Recce's fit in to these groups note that im talking about the special forces before 1994.

According to what i have read they were rated as some of the top guys in the world because of all thier combat experience.....just like to know for interest...if anybody actually knows anything about them.

reply to post by vincere7


In order:

1. British SAS/SBS - both go through same base then branch to specialty
1. US Navy SEALS
1. Russian Spetsnaz
1. US Delta Force
5. Sayaret Maktal and Sayaret Duvdevan - Israeli's go through same basetraining for this and then specialize at 13.
6. GSG-9
7. GIGN - in 11 years they ran 650 missions, they are good
8. CIA Special Activities Staff - could arguably be harder but since most people reading this haven't heard of them people will argue.

Reason for top 4 being 1 is that they all cross train with each other. We all in certain cases are better or worse at certain things than other groups are, it really comes down to combat effectiveness. I will say that in terms of that we all must look at our own flaws and each others and hope to better adapt to each situation better than the lions can. To ask who is the toughest and which is the hardest, pick what you yourself are worst at, and try to pass. Try to pick what you are best at, and try that. In both cases you will end up in the same group, washed out. With these units pass rates at roughly 1-7% on average. Many selections go without any candidates being qualified. How about instead of measuring your size you start slow and sign up, then we can work on pulling your jimmy out of your pants for a competition.

"It is not the critic who counts"

J