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Capabiliites of South African Military Industrial Complex

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posted on Jan, 1 2007 @ 08:22 PM
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Discussing this matter may be of interest for several reasons including they control so many strategic resources that the US and other militaries rely upon.

So whoever has some input please start.




posted on Jan, 8 2007 @ 11:43 AM
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What military industrial complex? I'm currently working for the SANDF, and I'm pretty sure we don't have anything (resource or otherwise) that is really essential to any other army.

In terms of manufacturing of weapons, we mostly buy in 'barebone' vechiles and refit them with local weapon systems and armour. The only exception being Tanks, Personel Carriers, Artillery and Attack helicopters.

In terms of Tanks, we mainly refit old battletanks and extend their life. We also manufacture the RooiKat, that is a nifty little recon vechile that can travel almost anywhare - designed for our rugged conditions. We manufacture some heavily armoured personel carriers. Then there is the G7 self propelled artillery - a VERY accurate piece of equipment. And then also the Rooivalk Attack helicopter. When I say manufacture, I mean to the tone of 10-20 per year. Mainly for own use, and recently for export use. Our main arms manufacturer, Denel, is basicly bankrupt - and has to ask government for money every couple of months.

We just bought 4 new frigates from Germany, and some diesel submarines. We also bought some new Grippen fighter jets. Nothing majour, just enough to keep the balance of power in the region.

Resource wise we only have Uranium and Iron that might be of some interest, but many other countries including the US have that.

The only resource we do have that is in high demand is weapons design technology. A South African company designed the base system that now is standard on all new US aircraft carriers. www.armsdeal-vpo.co.za... - from what I've seen demonstrated locally, I believe it can seriously challenge the Russion SunBurst missile. I've seen that system engage multiple targets (airplanes and missiles) and defeating all that was trown at it. If coupled to a RAM missile system it could easily defeat incoming targets in excess of mach3.

I hope it gives some clarity as to our resources, abilities, etc.



posted on Jan, 9 2007 @ 08:57 AM
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It's "Gripen" (Griffin) spelled with one (1) "P".


You've also got that SpecOp unit, "The Special Brigade" or what you call it.
Among special forces world-wide their training program is considered "the ultimate test" (this is the word even among SAS and Delta).

That you should be proud of.

Otherwise I find this thread just as confusing.



posted on Jan, 9 2007 @ 11:16 AM
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Yes, its informally called the 'Recces'. Formally it is just called the South African special forces. They are extremly well trained, and the envy of many. Altough their name suggest mainly a recon type deployment, they are fully trained for any kind of assigment for deployment from land, sea or air.

They are such a small group that they all know each other, and they don't take well to 'posers' or imposters. www.recce.co.za...

They were very important in the 80's when South Africa was in conflict with Namibia and Angola. Very much a 'bush' war where the enemy rely on ambush and guerilla tactics to win. The recces is famous for infiltrating enemy terittory and providing info for the main forces to attach. Altough I am sure sure they did/do see combat, their role is much more speialized, and they are not meant to be used in full-on onslaughts. Rather relying on stealth and tactics to overpower the enemy.

I think the special forces is a reminist from the old 'white' rule era, and does'nt really fit into our current modus operandi. Our armed forces has been heavily reduced to the point where it is almost a stretch to fulfill our African Union peace keeping responsabilities. Many of us speculate that a country like Zimbabwe with a massive standing army could overrun our borders in a very short time. (if they could muster some feul for their tanks.....)

If our government was'nt so neutral our special forces (who sit arround in the barracs anyways) could be of some huge importance in Iraq.

As a footnote, many of the ex-recce members do actualy end up in Iraq as private security employees for the US government.



posted on Jan, 11 2007 @ 01:17 AM
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Originally posted by Raud
You've also got that SpecOp unit, "The Special Brigade" or what you call it.
Among special forces world-wide their training program is considered "the ultimate test" (this is the word even among SAS and Delta).


LOL I always laugh when I read complete BS like this. No doubt you have absolutely nothing to back you up



posted on Jan, 12 2007 @ 01:43 AM
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Originally posted by rogue1
LOL I always laugh when I read complete BS like this. No doubt you have absolutely nothing to back you up


Hmm, I read it in a book, a quite respectful and accuarate one written by Mike Ryan, Chris Mann and Alexander Stillwell.
The title of the issue in my possession is only in my native tongue but it roughly translates into: "Special Forces Worldwide" (2006)

That would be my back-up.



posted on Jan, 12 2007 @ 04:50 AM
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Originally posted by Raud
Hmm, I read it in a book, a quite respectful and accuarate one written by Mike Ryan, Chris Mann and Alexander Stillwell.
The title of the issue in my possession is only in my native tongue but it roughly translates into: "Special Forces Worldwide" (2006)


BOllocks, who says it is quite respectful and accurate. Find me some DElta, SAS, SAG(, SASR men who have actually said that the SA course is the most demanding. Gee what a surprise you can't.

As I said complete bollocks.



posted on Jan, 12 2007 @ 05:11 AM
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Eh, what's your problem man? 90-95% of the people fail to pass their course. That is fewer than both SAS and DELTA.
But what would I know, I did not try or pass either of them and I quite sure neighter did you. What country do you originate from? And why is it so important that this special unit is less great than others? Me myself is not South African.

Cool down a bit would'ya...



posted on Jan, 12 2007 @ 05:45 AM
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Originally posted by rogue1
BOllocks, who says it is quite respectful and accurate. Find me some DElta, SAS, SAG(, SASR men who have actually said that the SA course is the most demanding. Gee what a surprise you can't.
As I said complete bollocks.


The Recces make other SpecOps look like pussies. I have served in the SA army and I have seen so called "realistic" footage of other country special forces in training and on ops maneuvers. Man it is like they went on a field trip with a school.

And you sitting there in China making out like you are the bee’s knees and know it all! Quite honestly though, our training was centered around “local” terrain types which was specifically bush warfare – however, we do just as well in urban warfare but we would kick ass in the bush and hold our own in the urban environment. Well to be honest, that’s when real men trained in the army. Now that it is basically voluntary I think a lot of dumb asses joined (normal forces) because they just would not cut it in a real job and the army needed volunteers.

Gone are the days of having a real force that was actually interested in the security of the country.

Rogue1: why did you not give Raud the chance to reply before stating he can’t (regardless of the truth or not) because you have already made up your (small insignificant) mind that it is “bollocks” as you put it. Sad that you exist really!



posted on Jan, 12 2007 @ 06:18 AM
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Originally posted by rogue1

Originally posted by Raud
You've also got that SpecOp unit, "The Special Brigade" or what you call it.
Among special forces world-wide their training program is considered "the ultimate test" (this is the word even among SAS and Delta).


LOL I always laugh when I read complete BS like this. No doubt you have absolutely nothing to back you up


Another one for dumb @asses like rogue1:

en.wikipedia.org...

Scroll down to "Selection" the first line reads The Ultimate Challenge, as South African Special Forces Selection is often called, is the toughest special forces selection course in the world.

I guess if I met rogue1 I would be looking at a prize d1ck head!!



posted on Jan, 12 2007 @ 07:30 AM
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Originally posted by shearder
Another one for dumb @asses like rogue1:

en.wikipedia.org...

Scroll down to "Selection" the first line reads The Ultimate Challenge, as South African Special Forces Selection is often called, is the toughest special forces selection course in the world.

I guess if I met rogue1 I would be looking at a prize d1ck head!!


LOL right, did you go in and edit wiki yourself to put in these remarks. Please post some credible information rather than sme open sourced easily edited online encyclopedia.


The Recces make other SpecOps look like pussies. I have served in the SA army and I have seen so called "realistic" footage of other country special forces in training and on ops maneuvers. Man it is like they went on a field trip with a school.


LMAO, right you sw some credible footage ( like you'd know ) of other special forces and they're pussies right ? Well I doubt you've seen any footage of Delta or SASR training, thy're secret.
I'd back the SASR ( not the SAS ) against South African Recces ( you didn't even know the name ) anyday. In the book "Pamwe Chete" the Rhodeisan SAS and Selous Scouts thought the South African spec ops were # and most of them with the fall of the white govenment went to serve in teh Brit SAS and Australian spec ops units.

PS. Your level of conversational dialogue just goes to show you were never more than a mindless grunt.


[edit on 12-1-2007 by rogue1]



posted on Jan, 12 2007 @ 09:06 AM
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Hey Rogue1, are you sereious about yourself? If so, I honestly feel sorry for you. You have not answered my questions yet. Go back to your beer-drinking until you can't type anymore stupid posts would'ya?



posted on Jan, 12 2007 @ 10:29 AM
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Originally posted by Raud
Eh, what's your problem man? 90-95% of the people fail to pass their course. That is fewer than both SAS and DELTA.


LOL, I suggest you study your figures more, that would be around the SAS and Delta drop out rate.. Also, as the US and UK have a much larger pool of candidates to rtecrute from, I suggest to you that the reason so many Saffers fail the course is the complete lack of suitable people.
Not to mention of course almost all people who try for US Delta are aleready Army Rangers, an elite unit in themselves.



But what would I know, I did not try or pass either of them and I quite sure neighter did you. What country do you originate from? And why is it so important that this special unit is less great than others? Me myself is not South African.


I just can't stand people making ignorant comments such as yours, " err the South Adricans are the best ". It's a stupid statement to begin with, I am just correcting you. LOL, you son't even know what they're called


I'm not saying they're not good, they are. But they are hardly the ebst and they don't make the " SAS and Delts look like pussies "



posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 03:41 AM
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Rogue

Hey man - I think the only REAL way of saying who's the best is putting everybody in a room and kicking the crap out of each other. Of coarse there is so much secrecy and mystery about all the different training taking place.

In all fairness the point is not who train the hardest and who has the best weaponry, but who SURVIVES the best. It takes 6 months to train a grunt to pull a trigger, it takes up to 24 months to train a special forces operator.

History remembers the true champoins:

Korea -> USA Navy Seals Lost
Vietnam -> USA Navy Seals Lost
Afganistan -> Russian Delta Force Lost
Angola / Namibia -> South African Recces Lost
Argentina -> Brittish SAS Lost
Afganistan II -> USA / French / Canadian Lost
Iraq -> USA Navy Seals Lost

As you can see, the fact is that no special forces unit in the world could ever influence the outcome of a war.

Just have some freaking respect for the guys (and woman) who have the courage to complete 24 months of terror and hardship to become the best and protect their countrymen against outside threats.

When you have personaly completed all the special forces training programms in the world, you can tell us who is the best. Until then, just leave it to speculation.



posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 09:08 AM
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Originally posted by RooiKatZA
History remembers the true champoins:

Korea -> USA Navy Seals Lost
Vietnam -> USA Navy Seals Lost
Afganistan -> Russian Delta Force Lost
Angola / Namibia -> South African Recces Lost
Argentina -> Brittish SAS Lost
Afganistan II -> USA / French / Canadian Lost
Iraq -> USA Navy Seals Lost

As you can see, the fact is that no special forces unit in the world could ever influence the outcome of a war.


Erm what do you mean ny lost ? Of course a few hundred cannot win a war when millions are fighting. I thyink you'll find though that they hvae been very successful in " winning " the missions they were going.
Also iy was the US Green Berets with local militia which defeated the Taliban in Afghanistan, yes they did defeat them.

Just have some freaking respect for the guys (and woman) who have the courage to complete 24 months of terror and hardship to become the best and protect their countrymen against outside threats.

When you have personaly completed all the special forces training programms in the world, you can tell us who is the best. Until then, just leave it to speculation.



posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 01:41 PM
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Ofcourse the main point here is the Recci's do not exist anymore so
whats the point of the argument? the South African military is
a ghost of what it was, well except for its recent arms deal..

The Griphens are first class but they are rushing new pilots through
training and blaming white trainers with racisim for failing them
and this is even though they have crashed one or two trainers so far.

Lesotho, and thats LESOTHO incase you missed it gave our guys
trouble during that coup a few years ago.

Sorry, theres nothing to be proud of here guys!




[edit on 13-1-2007 by TheBlueLantern]



posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 02:19 PM
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That would be GRIPEN, pronounced "i" with the same sound as the "i" in the word "in" or "invisible" (sorry but I just HAVE to make that clear, no offence)


Maybe the German KSK is the toughest? It takes 3 years of education to become a member, making it the longest training for any special forces unit in the world.
Just a thought, I mean that is a long period and therefore a long time not to screw up and drop out...



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 12:27 AM
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I think the lesson once again - as seen here guys - is that we shouldn't argue with an idiot/moron aka: rogue1 – they will naturally drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

I, for one, couldn’t be bothered to argue any further and rest my case.

And – as RooiKatZA rightfully states, It takes 6 months to train a grunt to pull a trigger, it takes up to 24 months to train a special forces operator. and considering I only intended to do my national service I didn’t even consider going for SpecOps – notwithstanding the fact that there were no “keurings” at my time or at 6SAI – period.

I have an uncle that was Recce (based in DBN KZN) – you get nothing out of him – ever.



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 02:29 AM
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Originally posted by RooiKatZA
History remembers the true champoins:

Korea -> USA Navy Seals Lost
Vietnam -> USA Navy Seals Lost
Afganistan -> Russian Delta Force Lost
Angola / Namibia -> South African Recces Lost
Argentina -> Brittish SAS Lost
Afganistan II -> USA / French / Canadian Lost
Iraq -> USA Navy Seals Lost


The SEALS in Vietnam had a kill ratio of 200:1. Point being the soldiers arent the ones losing us the wars. But polotics... They can lose wars for ya. Not the battles at which our brave soldiers fought (and still do today). Your list has a biased tone to it. YOUR baised tone. Makeing it YOUR worthless unprofessional opinion. And what are opinions like? Assholes!. Everyones got one. And much like the rest of them, yours happens to be wrong.


I like how your only posting things the way you WISH to see it. We lost in afganistan? This is news to me.... When did we pull out? How about Iraq? Are we losing the battles? Please we took out there inferior conventionl military in a measly 3 weeks. And right now we are doing our best to prevent collateral damage.

Its fine if you want to paint the picture you want to see for yourself. But dammit dont spout it off as fact. It kills the very little crediability you came in here with.

[edit on 023131p://3001am by semperfoo]



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 09:43 AM
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Originally posted by shearder
I think the lesson once again - as seen here guys - is that we shouldn't argue with an idiot/moron aka: rogue1 – they will naturally drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.


Gawd, you never had an argument in the first place, your very weak response enforces this. NOw please enough of the insults, you descrived yourself very well, is the above phrase something people hvae said to you often ?


I have an uncle that was Recce (based in DBN KZN) – you get nothing out of him – ever.


Of course you did
LOL

[edit on 15-1-2007 by rogue1]



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