Haveyou ever wondered why we need guns, simpler solution

Why are we going around killing people when we can tranqualize them, I am sure we probably have drugs that on contact can knock you out, I know in some cases a police officer might be confronted with a situation where he can't take a chance but in many cases shooting them with a dart that on contact puts them down and out on contact would be just as effective.

I think a neural agent could kill you too, at least put you into a coma. Safety slugs, knocking one down but not penetrating flesh would be more useful.


1 - metal tip
2 - metal jacket
3 - shot load

In war, I think, nonlethals aren't required, you are on war because you have to eliminate the enemy.
But nonlethal gun ammo would be useful for police. A citizen is always useful for the country, killing him may not be as profitable as sending him to do community service.


[Edited on 7-12-2003 by Johnny]

Originally posted by Johnny

In war, I think, nonlethals aren't required, you are on war because you have to eliminate the enemy.

Not especially. When a soldier is wounded, it takes 2 other soldier to help the wounded one. So 3 aren't fighting against you. When one is dead, the other 2 fight against you and they want to have their revenge.

[Edited on 7-12-2003 by ultra_phoenix]

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix

Originally posted by Johnny
In war, I think, nonlethals aren't required, you are on war because you have to eliminate the enemy.

Not especially. When a soldier is wounded, it takes 2 other soldier to help the wounded one. So 3 aren't fighting against you. When one is dead, the other 2 fight against you and they want to have their revenge.

[Edited on 7-12-2003 by ultra_phoenix]

While this may be true, once the battle is ended, you then have more wounded to care for and more prisoners to secure. Once those prisoners are taken into custody, you have to keep them from escaping, as well as feed and clothe them.

There is also the problem of what to do with them once a war is over. If they're committed to the ideals of their side in the war, you now have a trained group of fighters who you'll either need to keep imprisoned or have some way of keeping tabs on their activities. Once out of your custody, they can begin to work through guerilla tactics against your forces as they gain the support of those loyal to their side.

All of this chews up more resources than just killing them to begin with. So in that regard, it's not practical to use nonlethal rounds in warfare, even if our ideals and morals on preservation of life make us want to think otherwise.

Just some food for thought.

There was actually a great special on some of the up and coming non-lethal methods, on TLC or TDC....about 3 or 4 months ago.....

I especially liked the imobilizing foam bit....

I can't think of anything that disables you that quickly though (i.e. that would prevent the perp from getting off another shot).

On this note though, my idea was always this (for planes...came up with it during the 80's and all the hijackings....)

Simply have an armed air marshall as part of the cockpit crew. His job would be to monitor cameras and listen to the cabin mikes. The cockpit would be more secure, like it is now (post 9/11). Anyhow, if something goes down, he'd simply gas the whole cabin, put everyone to sleep, then come out of the cockpit, and detain the perps (or, my idea, through them out without a parachute).... It would have to be a nerve agent that could absorb through skin, so that nothing short of a hasmat suit is going to thwart it....

War is war.... I never could get this "play by the rules" nonsense....

One minute you're killing them, the next you're feeding and clothing them....

I know it's for international relations and all, and sounds moralistic..but seriously....these are people you were more than happy to shoot just before they surrendered... Not to mention, the enemy can turn this around on you (see Iraq), where they pretend to surrender, you lower your stance, and then they ambush you...

Bah...war is war....kill em all....

I know TheDemonHunter.

But one of the main reason for chosing the 5.56 mm and not keeping the 7.62 mm was the idea that it's better to have a wounded ennemy than a killed ennemy.

Anyway I don't agree with that policy. It's better to have a 7.62 than a 5.56. 5.56 is BS.

You have to standarise your equipment.
Standarisation means globalisation. We're in the NWO topic.

But the 5,56 cartridge is lighter. It isn't a great difference, but it seems that small arm ammunition evolution leads us to small caliber bullets.
Just a speculation, but the new PDW class SMGs have smaller calibres, and the flachette and caseless concepts were much smaller that today's SMG 9mm cartriges.
And these guys, though small, are EXTREMELY deadly, especially T194.

[Edited on 7-12-2003 by Johnny]

an even simpler solution would be to have troops usig IR light guns that causes a shock when you are hit.......what i mean is like the laser guns you can goto an arcade and run around but modified for war by having a shock to either KO or kill...this way we can have urban warfare with no civilian casulties.....and instead of nukes just use a massive EMP bomb......it would look funny too just seeing people fall down for no reason.......make war a comedy.

Hey kids... do you know what DMSO is? Dimethylsulphoxide, for you chem students out there. It's this substance that human skin literally leeches up. It's a liquid, by the way, and soluable with a lot of tranquilizers. Instead of shot in your safety ammo, put that. I'm sure you can find a way... a hardening agent that will melt from it back into liquid from the heat of the discharge, and on impact it splashes.

Did I mention it goes right through clothes, too?

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx
Hey kids... do you know what DMSO is? Dimethylsulphoxide, for you chem students out there. It's this substance that human skin literally leeches up. It's a liquid, by the way, and soluable with a lot of tranquilizers. Instead of shot in your safety ammo, put that. I'm sure you can find a way... a hardening agent that will melt from it back into liquid from the heat of the discharge, and on impact it splashes.

Did I mention it goes right through clothes, too?

DE

So simple, yet so genius.

But depends on what substance you use as the tranquiliser and the amount of it- and we don't know how fast this methode will work.

Originally posted by Johnny

Originally posted by DeusEx
Hey kids... do you know what DMSO is? Dimethylsulphoxide, for you chem students out there. It's this substance that human skin literally leeches up. It's a liquid, by the way, and soluable with a lot of tranquilizers. Instead of shot in your safety ammo, put that. I'm sure you can find a way... a hardening agent that will melt from it back into liquid from the heat of the discharge, and on impact it splashes.

Did I mention it goes right through clothes, too?

DE

So simple, yet so genius.

But depends on what substance you use as the tranquiliser and the amount of it- and we don't know how fast this methode will work.

Ever used this stuff? You get a little on your hands, and it makes you feel really wierd. it's soluable with most water-based tranquilizers. Mixx them and try it out. Then, a hardening agent, and voila! (I want a cut if this gets big, tho).

DE

Yeah hard to disagree with you people but he future is in stealth and non-lethal weapons.

An interesting one I came across is from our buddy Bob Lazar who is researching a type of water cannon that conducts a high voltage electrical charge. Like a taser without the wires and arrows idea.

Wait till they fully understand sound energy or even light.

Then the big one is magnetics which they hardly know squat about yet.

Non lethal guns for wars? Yeah, right, that would never happen. Why? Simple, you put your AK-47 vs my tranquilizer gun, who do ya think is gonna win? The AK definately. For police, well, most police ONLY use there guns IF their life is being threatened, but most of the time, they won't use their gun, they will physically knock them out.

-wD

Hey,we can hope, right?

De

Originally posted by Gazrok
There was actually a great special on some of the up and coming non-lethal methods, on TLC or TDC....about 3 or 4 months ago.....

I especially liked the imobilizing foam bit....

I can't think of anything that disables you that quickly though (i.e. that would prevent the perp from getting off another shot).

On this note though, my idea was always this (for planes...came up with it during the 80's and all the hijackings....)

Simply have an armed air marshall as part of the cockpit crew. His job would be to monitor cameras and listen to the cabin mikes. The cockpit would be more secure, like it is now (post 9/11). Anyhow, if something goes down, he'd simply gas the whole cabin, put everyone to sleep, then come out of the cockpit, and detain the perps (or, my idea, through them out without a parachute)....

It would have to be a nerve agent that could absorb through skin, so that nothing short of a hasmat suit is going to thwart it....

I saw some of that special. It was quite interesting. There's one problem with using any kind of chemical or gas that renders people unconscious. There's always a chance that they won't wake up. Dosages are normally dependant on the size and/or tolerance of people. (Adult dosage would probably kill a child) This is why anesthesiologists make the big bucks.

[Edited on 12-7-2003 by Satyr]

Non-lethal weapons have the ability to take out many people in one shot without damaging anything else.

They could also take out people that are shielded, protected and for which you are unaware of.

They ARE the future of warfare in many ways.

Originally posted by Satyr
I saw some of that special. It was quite interesting. There's one problem with using any kind of chemical or gas that renders people unconsious. There's always a chance that they won't wake up. This is why anesthesiologists make the big bucks.

Then hwo do they tranq bears and meese and stuff? The same concept could eb applied to a DMSO bullet. Anyways, all firearms have an inherent risk of causing death. Rubber bullet crush skulls and such. I figure there's less chance with a bullet filled with DMSO and some tranquilizer.

DE

[Edited on 7-12-2003 by DeusEx]

Originally posted by DeusEx
Ever used this stuff? You get a little on your hands, and it makes you feel really wierd. it's soluable with most water-based tranquilizers. Mixx them and try it out. Then, a hardening agent, and voila! (I want a cut if this gets big, tho).

DE

Never had a chance to use it.
This idea is patented, isn't it?

Has it been already used?

Originally posted by Satyr
I saw some of that special. It was quite interesting. There's one problem with using any kind of chemical or gas that renders people unconsious. There's always a chance that they won't wake up. This is why anesthesiologists make the big bucks.

Originally posted by DeusEx
Then hwo do they tranq bears and meese and stuff? The same concept could eb applied to a DMSO bullet. Anyways, all firearms have an inherent risk of causing death. Rubber bullet crush skulls and such. I figure there's less chance with a bullet filled with DMSO and some tranquilizer.

DE

Well, when they fail to wake the patient up they get the big mental brakedown.
I like the DMSO idea, very much... but a crushed skull and a lost eye aren't lethal... And COMA=dead brain...

[Edited on 7-12-2003 by Johnny]

I have no idea. If it is patented, I'm surprised it isn't used more often. DMSO is the, hands down, best contact-use chemical discovered so far. Even if you miss with it, a person can slip and fall into it and STILL be rendered unconscious. I'm going to check into this further.

DE