Saddam was killed by a bunker buster in March, 2003, not on 30-12-06

The whole theory of the man being hung was a double went right out the window, the minute his daughter asked to have the body buried out of the country so she could bury it later after the fighting ends.

Best way to get facial ID:

forensic-evidence.com...

Some evidence that ear fold may not be the best. (Was used by researchers in JFK case to try and ID E.Howard Hunt and 'bum', and to ID Anastasia v Anna Anderson)

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

Hard to tell how careful the 'duplicates' would be created.

Originally posted by shots
The whole theory of the man being hung was a double went right out the window, the minute his daughter asked to have the body buried out of the country so she could bury it later after the fighting ends.

Shots, they knew you knew they knew you knew they'd say that. (kidding)

Seriously, several ways to do this, including facial recognition biometrics and other things.

At least Denied is trying to show, use some valid research techniques as best he can to show his theory. This is cool. Doesn't mean he avoids criticism. This is how these things are examined.

See my link on facial biometrics.

This is similar to what other conspiracy researchers try to do when you don't have perfect evidence.

Erm, I like how the thread poster has used pictures of a younger Sadamnn Hussein to compare with 'current', pre-death pictures....

It's a double. One thing that's undeniably consistent in the older/pre-captured Saddam photos are his well defined ear lobes. You can even see the fine lines from a distance. There's two images of discoloration in that area in the trial photos..the grayish discoloration is right where the fine lines are supposed to be. It appears to me like somebody noticed those lobes weren't right and tried to hack the look (they sure as hell ain't swollen!). There's another where you can get a good shot at the folds of the left ear and it looks pretty beat up. Is that normal with age? Seriously check out the lobes if nothing else. I did a image search on Saddam (I recommend you get a wide spectrum of images to look at too) and that stood out more than anything else. Major discrepancies on what I could see of his ears. I seem to get mostly the left ear. It was hard for me to find a reference for something to compare with the right. I also think I'm seeing a roaming mole on the right side of his face near the sideburn. It's high, it's low.. some pics I can't even tell what the hell I'm looking at. Looking at him straight on, I've seen it at or above the eye level.

Edit: Hmmm.. now I'm not so sure about discoloration, It could be the way the ear is bent leaving a good part of the ear in shadow.

[edit on 31-12-2006 by massexodus]

Yes you can clearly tell that the body double is much older than he was. His teeth are bad. His nose is much bigger than the real Saddam. Or maybe the guy has been payed by the CIA to play the part in the trial. Note that they havent shown us the point where he actually gets hung. All the show you is when they put the rope round his neck.

I wanted to post in support of Denied's theory.

Do I have conclusive proof? no. Can I provide links to it? No.

But in all sincerity, from day 1, my gut has told me that this was a sham. And I generally trust my gut most.

In a day and age where ALL media is commonly accepted as filtered, manipulated, and grossly managed as blatant propaganda, < whether you are a neocon and believe Limbaugh, O'Rielly types preaching about the "Liberal" media, or a subscriber to the belief that there is indeed a unseen hand manipulating events >why would anyone trust anything the mainstream offers us on it's face value? Seriously.

There is a obvious agenda and Goal in propping this charade to the world, and there is no obvious draw back to their doing it..so..it's reasonable to challenge the authenticity of this whole process.

Let me try and answer these three comments.

SHOTS- The whole theory of the man being hung was a double went right out the window, the minute his daughter asked to have the body buried out of the country so she could bury it later after the fighting ends.

Not factual.

AWJA, Iraq, Dec 31 (Reuters) - Saddam Hussein was buried in the dead of night in his native village on Sunday, prompting an outpouring of sectarian anger as the 3,000th American soldier was reported to have died in Iraq.

Saddam's body, shown swinging on the rope, was flown overnight by U.S. military helicopter to his home city of Tikrit in northern Iraq and, as agreed with U.S. and Iraqi officials, buried in haste at nearby Awja at 3 a.m. (midnight GMT).

In Iraq, Tikrit, very quickly.
www.alertnet.org...

Peyres- Erm, I like how the thread poster has used pictures of a younger Sadamnn Hussein to compare with 'current', pre-death pictures.

Ive used various, heres a good example of two photos, taken very near to each other, before and right after the march 2003 attack.


The one on the left is the hastily, put together "new" Saddam, a double.
Reading off a scribbled note, would the real Saddam do that, i remember seeing this as it happened on the news and thinking why is he reading from a bit of paper, not like him?

Massexodus- I also think I'm seeing a roaming mole on the right side of his face near the sideburn.

Your right as noticed here by another researcher, its on "his" right.

First, notice the dark birthmark just above and to the left of this man's left eye and especially its position and size. Secondly, notice his right side of his hairline.

He means this one.



See the birth mark?

Now see if its in an older pic?



No birth mark, well i see two on the right and the one on the left has gone???

More on link.
www.aztlan.net...

Im not screaming that this is proof, thats why i put this in skunk works, but it makes you think.


[edit on 31-12-2006 by Denied]

[edit on 31-12-2006 by Denied]

[edit on 31-12-2006 by Denied]

i've seen better camera work by a 5 year old kid filming an ant on the floor. the people in hoods didn't even seem like they knew what they were doing. and what was that trap door and staircase all about! didn't seem at all official. it looked cheap, cheap camera, cheap set up. look staged.

Originally posted by Denied
Not factual.

[

What are you talking about Not factual, hell every major network carried articles stating what she wanted. I can only assume you missed them so here are a few, you can look the others up on your own.

Saddam''s body buried in hometown, contrary to daughter''s wish

Saddam's daughter wants father buried in Yemen

Fate of Saddam's body remains unclear

IMO the teeth are the most interesting part, however as other people have mentioned how do we know which pix are of the real Saddam? I'm guessing he'd be the one with the best teeth but who'd know?

Also who's to say that a double wasn't killed in the bunker, rather than the man himself?

I'm guessing it would look better from USA/uK point of view to actually trial the man and hand him back to the Iraqi people to deal with.. So it probably suited to have the double (if indeed it was) hung..

Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by Denied
Not factual.

[

What are you talking about Not factual, hell every major network carried articles stating what she wanted. I can only assume you missed them so here are a few, you can look the others up on your own.

Saddam''s body buried in hometown, contrary to daughter''s wish

Saddam's daughter wants father buried in Yemen

Fate of Saddam's body remains unclear

I think we misunderstood, i know she wanted it to happen, it just didnt, i thought you were suggesting he was buried out of Iraq.

if any this thread has some importance on ATS

i would like the who's who of people who doubt the government's official story to step up and try to identify the marks using any kind of facial recognition techniques and software

i think this story is one that actually COULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE

i would anticipate a whole lot of legitaminte disbeleivers , and even some disinformation cointerpro shmucks to chime in if this really gets going

those who dismiss these things all together do so, so that they can rest there heads easier at nite, without having to doubt there trust they have in american officials, the absoluteness of there beleif systems, and thus there secure feeling they have going to bed

now inrespect there are people who do the opposite , and try to latch on to every conspiracy theory, cause they know the gov't have lied and they want to be the first to catch a new story or lie, (this is where disinfo agents come in , because they realize the TRADEOFF of being open minded. what most open minded out of the box thinkers don't. conspiracy theorists by default end up sacrificing the public opinion of the majority by INITIALLY being openminded to 10 conspiracy theory's where as if 9 of these theory's are LATER "proven to be disinfo, or b.s the public will be more than happy to ASSOCIATE conspiracy's theoryist as wacko's cause it helps them sleep better at nite, conveniently forgetting that 1 out of these ten is likely LEGITIMATE

understand?

however i have no idea wether saddam is dead or alive with all the body doubles and political poo poo who could know, i think the focus of the topic should what is the deal with the guy in court

eventhough if he ever turned up alive after this the gov't officials would be in poo poo anyway.

The ear lobes pre/post capture are the only thing that can be considered the dead give away imo, unless there are conditions that can drastically change the appearance of the ears. Capture and the conditions of detainment can be argued to explain away Saddam's appearance (bad teeth, grooming, etc). I still think it was a double that was hung, and if it is, it's a damn good one and can fool anybody.

[edit on 2-1-2007 by massexodus]

well in the past he's had doubles represent him whilst meeting officials and so on. so surely it couldn't be that hard to have a double represent him whilst some hooded volunteers put a rope round his neck. the video footage isn't exactly crystal clear. they video'd it to make sure there were no conspiracy theories, however all the video shows is a very seemingly disorganised hanging in a very poor quality.

Originally posted by cpdaman


i would like the who's who of people who doubt the government's official story to step up and try to identify the marks using any kind of facial recognition techniques and software

Thanks for the back up.
I did a lot of searching, and couldnt find anything, off the shelf.
Theres a technique i think called pattern repetition, which could find discrepentcies between the two faces.

I dont think Saddam is alive now, as the thread title says, i think he was killed in 2003, Iraq wanted him to carry on (as a double), and the US are probaly in on it, in some way, i dont think they intentionally wanted to kill him.

I was reading this unusual article last night, about a guard who mainly looked after him.

He added that he was under strict orders to do whatever necessary to keep Saddam alive.

"Saddam Hussein cannot die in US custody," he said a US colonel had told him.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Maybe what went wrong was, he wasn't supposed to be killed in Iraq '03 , they wanted this trial to happen.

Question is, why, what was the real agenda behind the trial?

[edit on 2-1-2007 by Denied]

[edit on 2-1-2007 by Denied]

[edit on 2-1-2007 by Denied]

Originally posted by grover
thats absurd. That Saddam had doubles is well known but what double would be willing to take the ultimate fall for a man 3 years dead? No he would have been screaming bloody murder at the trials that he wasn't Saddam.

Then either way he would have been killed..

Found something strange, if true.

Altered photos of Saddam Hussein released by CENTCOM

The altered photos of Saddam Hussein below were issued to coaltion troops in Iraq on July 31, 2003, to better help them recognize the wanted former Iraqi leader.

And the strangest "altered" picture i have seen of him.



Real pictures of saddam on link, just wanted to post the fake ones.
www.globalsecurity.org...

This is from his wife in June 18th 2004.

Mrs Saddam says Saddam is not Saddam

After the Russians applied enormous diplomatic pressure, America was finally obliged to allow Sajida Heiralla Tuffah access to her husband in Qatar, where he had been flown in some luxury aboard a United States Air Force VIP jet.

It gets better.

Well, you could have heard a pin drop all the way across Qatar. Sajida arrived from Syria with her official escort Sheikh Hamad Al-Tani, and then entered the prison, emerging only moments later pink with rage and shouting, "This is not my husband but his double. Where is my husband? Take me to my husband".

American officials rushed forward to shield Mrs Saddam from perplexed Russian observers, trying to insist that Saddam had changed a lot while in custody and she probably didn't recognise him. This was certainly not the best way to handle the Iraqi President's wife. "You think I do not know my husband?" Sajida shouted furiously, "I was married to the man for more than twenty-five years!" Then she stormed off, never to return.

www.prisonplanet.tv...

Plus....
There is the issue of the pictures showing saddam being captureded in autumn of '03.

Just after the release of the news of the alleged capture of Saddam Hussein by U.S. Troops, I spoke by telephone, with a very good friend of mine in Tehran, who served in the Iran-Iraq war. I asked him what he thought of the "capture". He replied, laughing himself, saying,

"Iranians are laughing about it. In the orchard around Saddam's hideout, the dates are on the trees!. Everyone in Iran knows that dates are harvested in the hottest part of August. The dates on the trees and the color of the trees tell us the photos of Saddam's hideout were taken in summer. This is late autumn".

See picture.

The foilage in the photos of "Saddam's Hideout" are in summer-color

www.axisoflogic.com...

Why would they want to hoax the "Saddam capture footage"?
Would they have made such a silly mistake as to not realise people would notice?

[edit on 2-1-2007 by Denied]

[edit on 2-1-2007 by Denied]

[edit on 2-1-2007 by Denied]

Sgt Ellis, from St Louis, told the St Louis Post-Dispatch that Saddam Hussein was held in a six foot by eight foot (1.8m to 2.4m) cell with a cot, table, two plastic chairs and two wash basins.

quote from a story dated 1st january 2007.

Intensive searches of farmland near the town of al-Dawr revealed Saddam Hussein in an underground hide-out, about six to eight feet (1.8m to 2.5m) deep, after several months on the run.

and this one from when they caught him.

So when they caught him they pretty much put him in a same sized room as his underground hideout.

Cool beans.