For All Big Banger Atheists

1) Anything created requires some assistance.
2) A chemical reaction requires some assistance.
3) A kiss requires somes assistance.
4) A marriage requires some assistance.
5) Reading a sentence requires some assistance.
6) Writing a letter requires some assistance.
7) Seeing an object requires some assistance.
8) Hearing a sound requires some assistance.
9) to Infinity requires some assistance.

God is "I AM."

God could create the Universe in less than one second, six days, 15 billion years, 30 trillion years...

Originally posted by GreatTech
1) Anything created requires some assistance.
2) A chemical reaction requires some assistance.
3) A kiss requires somes assistance.
4) A marriage requires some assistance.
5) Reading a sentence requires some assistance.
6) Writing a letter requires some assistance.
7) Seeing an object requires some assistance.
8) Hearing a sound requires some assistance.
9) to Infinity requires some assistance.

God is "I AM."

God could create the Universe in less than one second, six days, 15 billion years, 30 trillion years...

10) Snowflakes form naturally in certain conditions.

11) Planets orbit without being carried on the backs of turtles.

A chemical reaction just Happens.
The Laws of Physics determine what will occur.

From everything I have learned, if God made the Universe, he made a fully functional system. Right down to our physical minds. There are no magical shortcuts where things Just Happen. No cheats.

And so, if God made the Universe, he made it in a functional way... by means of a Big Bang? Well, why not?

Plenty of Christians can deal with the fact that stories written in the Middle East over 2000 years ago, through the eyes of people living at that time, probably aren't the literal truth.

Originally posted by GreatTech
1) Anything created requires some assistance.

alright, what created god?

2) A chemical reaction requires some assistance.

that's just false

3) A kiss requires somes assistance.

irrelevent

4) A marriage requires some assistance.

alright, people need to work to make a marriage work

5) Reading a sentence requires some assistance.

yeah, the human mind is a wonderful product of evolution

6) Writing a letter requires some assistance.

as i said, the human mind is a wonderful product of evolution

7) Seeing an object requires some assistance.

yep, the eye is also another product of evolution that i love

8) Hearing a sound requires some assistance.

yes, hearing is a great adaptation

9) to Infinity requires some assistance.

infinity isn't necassarily a reality
it's a theory
nothing is truely infinite
sure, some theorize that the universe is inifinite
but that's only because it is expanding too fast for us to measure
because there was a huge explosion

God could create the Universe in less than one second, six days, 15 billion
years, 30 trillion years...

and superman can turn back time by flying around the earth in circles...
i don't see why we're bringing fictional chraracters into this

Ummm, what was there before God made the universe? Ya can't make cookies without eggs in the batter.
Ya know that "edge of the universe"? That point where we can't see that fast?

What's 5 feet past that?

Go ask God, I'll wait.




Cuhail

P.S. Could God make a burrito so hot that even He can't bite into it?

[edit on 12/30/2006 by Cuhail]

Originally posted by GreatTech
1) Anything created requires some assistance.

Creation has a very explicit meaning. When science refers to the origins of the universe, if the word "creation" is used, it is generally simply a metaphor. In any case, it's unlikely that you'll hear science referring to the "creation" of the universe, rather you'll hear about the "Origins" of the universe, etc.

2) A chemical reaction requires some assistance.

Chemical reactions require no assistance. Chemical reactions require the presence of appropriate reactants under the proper thermodynamic conditions. This is why some chemical reactions are referred to as "spontaneous." Non-spontaneous reactions merely require the input of a certain amount of energy.

3) A kiss requires somes assistance.

Perhaps, but this statement doesn't follow logically from this line of thought, nor is it relevant to the question of the Big Bang.

4) A marriage requires some assistance.

Assistance? Apparently you're not married. Married requires compromise, marriage requires commitment, and marriage requires... two persons, but marriage doesn't require assistance, and in fact, I can take care of my own marriage. In any case, how is marriage... anyone's marriage relevant in the context of the Big Bang?

5) Reading a sentence requires some assistance.
6) Writing a letter requires some assistance.
7) Seeing an object requires some assistance.
8) Hearing a sound requires some assistance.
9) to Infinity requires some assistance.

Okay... Maybe some of these are indeed true for you... personally, I can write a letter all by myself... *shrug* no big deal. Believe it or not, I can form sentences all on my own too... but I guess that is assumed a priori if I can write letters all by myself, correct?

Seeing an object requires a neural network, photosensitive pigments/receptors, and a CPU (brain), but doesn't require anything outside of an organism proper.

Infinity does not require assistance, and in fact cannot be assisted. Infinity is a mathematical, philosophical, and theological concept, useful and descriptive in a variety of context, but doesn't 'require assistance."

God is "I AM."

Not necessarily incorrect, but most probably irrelevant with the respect to the Big Bang Theory.

God could create the Universe in less than one second, six days, 15 billion years, 30 trillion years...

Again perhaps this is so... but it would appear that God created the universe in an instant, and the universe has 'evolved' some 14 billion years later to contain complex animal life on at least one single planet.



[edit on 31-12-2006 by kallikak]

GreatTech

You left one big point out of the list in your thread,

Everything that you have in your list . . . is all in the reasoning and formulation of your human mind.

So what is the conspiracy here and the big deal and what has to do with what atheist believe and can put together in their minds and using their human reasoning.

The entire list is nothing than opinion.

Originally posted by GreatTech
1) Anything created requires some assistance.
2) A chemical reaction requires some assistance.
3) A kiss requires somes assistance.
4) A marriage requires some assistance.
5) Reading a sentence requires some assistance.
6) Writing a letter requires some assistance.
7) Seeing an object requires some assistance.
8) Hearing a sound requires some assistance.
9) to Infinity requires some assistance.

God is "I AM."

God could create the Universe in less than one second, six days, 15 billion years, 30 trillion years...

Eternity and Outfinity require no assistance, they are because they all ways have Been, that is their concept.

"God" could all so Be used to explain Existence; an Eternal Existence, not expanding, not shrinking. An Existence that is Eternally and Outfinitely Existing in every direction with no beginning and no end, no "edge" and no borders.

Existence is what it is, become it and you will Be it, and you will see it. We are It, it is Us, no separation. Stop this division of Human and Existence.

If God is "I Am", then We are God.

The list 1-9 Exists with no requirements, because it Exists; assistance is separation from Existence, Be it and it is you. Existence will Be as Us, and Be seen from Us what We make of it, and what We make of Existence is what We think of Existence and in reciprocal what Existence thinks of Us... Be aware that Existence thinks and We think Existence

[edit on 1-1-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

What is existence? What is creation? What is Infinity?

The answer is nobody knows, There probably is no God and there probably was no big bang.

Ya can't make cookies without eggs in the batter.

The truth is so immense it will not be found through science or theories. Maybe we find out when we die?

posted by GreatTech

1) Anything created requires some assistance . . 9) to Infinity requires some assistance. God is "I AM." God could create the Universe in less than one second . . “ [Edited by Don W]

Part 1. There is much evidence to support the theory of the Big Bang - more accurately the Fast Expansion - of the Universe. For me it is easy when I describe the “Singularity” as having nearly infinite density (mass) and nearly infinite heat (energy). Now as to what preceded the Singularity, I have no way to know. What will follow on is likewise unclear. Where once the debate was simple: is the Universe open or is it closed? But that was before dark matter. Matter we cannot see directly. It is not yet understood why the Universe's expansion rate seems to be increasing rather than what intuition would say is more likely, that the rate of expansion should be slowing.

Visible matter may be no more than 10% of the calculated matter making up the Universe. Dark matter - the effect of which can be seen - may make up another 25%, but that leaves us short a majority of the “stuff” of the Universe, and that “stuff” operates in the opposite direction of gravity. That is, it repels and does not attract.

Part 2. Man created God, and not the other way around. It’s plain to see our concept of God has evolved over the ages, to today’s benevolent personal God of the Born Again Movement that began around 1800 and exploded in the 1920s. Before this, God was not personal. God was more like the clockmaker of the Enlightenment. The God Concept is modified to suit the needs of any particular moment in time.

The (intellectually unsupportable) belief in God is in itself, neutral. Neither helpful nor hurtful. It is what people do in the Name of God that is sometimes destructive and sometimes beneficent. Very few people in 2006 actually believe in God. Most people, OTOH, believe in the belief in God. To believe in God itself is to believe in magic, to believe in miracles, to believe in the impossible dream. I recently heard Englishman Richard Dawkins discuss his recent book, “The God Delusion.” He uses biblical references to illustrate his thesis that the God of Israel is not the God of today. Once you admit that, then God who is often defined as Unchanging, has failed that simple test. When the God who is also described as all powerful is shown to have failed at anything, then the notion of God is over. I like to say we have defined God out of our ability to know Him. That is, God is said to be infinite. Man is finite. The finite cannot know the infinite. To any extent the infinite becomes known, it is then finite. If there was a God, we cannot know him. By definition.

Man created God


Foot Note: Ironically, it was a well regarded practicing Christian astronomer who despairingly named the point of beginning of our Universe “The Big Bang.” He was first to use that term in print. It is in his book written to refute the theory, titled “The Steady State Universe.” More irony. Between the time he propounded that theory and the time the book hit the booksellers, he, Dr. Fred Hoyle, had an eureka moment and he became a Big Bang advocate. He tried to have the book withheld but the publisher refused. It was a very good seller but almost no one realized the author had recanted the theory.

It was America’s Edwin Hubble who in 1929, discovered the fact our Universe is expanding. He propounded what was called the Hubble Constant, a numerical factor that is useful in measuring the distances to faraway objects in the Universe. As in science but not in religion, as more information becomes available, the value of Hubble’s Constant is refined, changed, updated, and improved. We build today on knowledge learned yesterday. We are not frozen in time as is religion. I would date the demise of religion from Gutenberg, who made “evolution” impossible. After the printing press, religion became a stand or fall proposition . It is falling!


[edit on 1/1/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by GreatTech
1) Anything created requires some assistance.
2) A chemical reaction requires some assistance.
3) A kiss requires somes assistance.
4) A marriage requires some assistance.
5) Reading a sentence requires some assistance.
6) Writing a letter requires some assistance.
7) Seeing an object requires some assistance.
8) Hearing a sound requires some assistance.
9) to Infinity requires some assistance.

God is "I AM."

God could create the Universe in less than one second, six days, 15 billion years, 30 trillion years...

1 Uh no, Energy cannot be created or destroyed only chainged.
2 Uh no. A chemical reaction is the effect of a causality of two or more properties.
3 hopefully or your just kissing air. unless you realy like air.
4 marriage requires work.
5 Reading a sentance requires the ability to read.
6 Writing a letter requires the ability to write.
7 yes if you are blind or sight restricted
8 yes if you are def or hearing impared
9 Infinity is just that infinity.

God is unknowable

Logic nitpicking. Not a defender of "God". Please do Not take it as offence.

Originally posted by donwhite
Man created God, and not the other way around.

Both. We must come to know that We are God, We are the Existence and the Existence is Us; Everything, Eternal, Outfinite. The concept of God is Us remembering what We are

It’s plain to see our concept of God has evolved over the ages, to today’s benevolent personal God of the Born Again Movement that began around 1800 and exploded in the 1920s. Before this, God was not personal. God was more like the clockmaker of the Enlightenment. The God Concept is modified to suit the needs of any particular moment in time.

True. This is because We are remembering that We are the characteristics of this entity that We created through trying to remember Ourselves. Now "God" is Not separate, We are God. We are Omnified.

The (unbounded) belief in God is in itself, neutral. Neither helpful nor hurtful.

It is help full and hurt full. It helps Us to remember Ourselves while some misinterpret the notion of "God" and radicalize it into War, death, destruction, and other means of personal gain and delusion.

It is what people do in the Name of God that is sometimes destructive and sometimes beneficent. Very few people in 2006 actually believe in God. Most people, OTOH, believe in the belief in God. To believe in God itself is to believe in magic, to believe in miracles, to believe in the impossible dream.

If there is a belief in and awareness of the impossible then it must Be possible for it to Exist in the belief and dream. If the impossible Exists then it is possible. Impossibilities are possible and impossible to Be impossible because they Exist as a possibility of thought. Magic is misleading and illusional. What is a miracle once it can Be done? It is natural, of course such concepts only Exist when We separate Ourselves from what We are. We are capable of Anything and Everything including Being uncapable of Anything We choose as a result of Being capable of Everything

I recently heard Englishman Richard Dawkins discuss his recent book, “The God Delusion.” He uses biblical references to illustrate his thesis that the God of Israel is not the God of today. Once you admit that, then God who is often defined as Unchanging, has failed that simple test. When the God who is also described as all powerful is shown to have failed at anything, then the notion of God is over. I like to say we have defined God out of our ability to know Him. That is, God is said to be infinite. Man is finite. The finite cannot know the infinite. To any extent the infinite becomes known, it is then finite. If there was a God, we cannot know him. By definition.

"God" can Be unchanging by "God" all ways changing. Thus "God" would Be in a constant state of change, which is unchanging in its nature of constant change. To change the unchanging would Be to stop its change. "God" passes that test. Why is "God" only a Him? If "God" is Omnified, then "God" is Everything, including a Her. If "God" is "all powerful" then "God" is "all powerful" in "God's" ability to fail as well. Thus "God" is still capable of anything and Everything, including failing. If "God" was Not capable of "failing" then "God" would not Be capable of Everything. We can know the Eternal and Outfinite by Not causing it to Be finite. Simply accept it for what it is. The finite does know the Outfinite, and the Outfinite the finite, without each other they would not Be known. Humans are anything that they choose to Be.

Man created God.

Human created God and God created Human. Human is God and God is Human. Human is Existence and Existence is Human. God is Existence and Existence is God. Everything is Everything and Everything is. We are Us

[edit on 1-1-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

[edit on 1-1-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal

Logic nitpicking . . do Not take offence . . [Edited by Don W]

I thought nitpicking was our game? No offense taken. All posters here are of equal rank.

“ . . We are God, We are Existence and Existence is Us; The concept of God is Us remembering what We are . . “

Nicely put.

True. This is because We are remembering that We are the characteristics of entity We created through trying to remember Ourselves.

This sounds a bit like Oriental mysticism, like the Hindu. I would not disdain this but it requires more input than I want to invest.

If the impossible Exists then it is possible.

Beware of circular reasoning. In the area of science and technology, I do subscribe to the conviction you cannot invent or create anything until you can conceive it.

"God" can Be unchanging by "God" all ways changing.

I’m not talking about the properties of God, but of the assertions made by adherents to Christianity who declare the Eternal Nature of God as a way to claim authority by having either the once delivered written word as in Protestantism, or by having the ear to hear God as in the Vicar of Christ of Orthodox Christianity (Catholicism).

Everything is Everything and Everything is. We are Us . .

I prefer more concrete definitions. But I respect yours.

A 'big banger', dear GreatTech, is not a person who thinks the universe started with a sizeable explosion. A big banger is a large sausage.

Still, a little headscratching makes it clear what you really mean. You mean that the Universe couldn't have come to be by itself. It must have needed a little 'assistance'. Therefore there must have been a God to do the assisting.

And your justification for asserting this? Ten arguments by analogy, all fallacious because they share no equivalent causal or operative principle with the question of how the universe came to be.

Your original post is just the umpteenth repetition on ATS of the nonsensical statement that 'something can't come from nothing, therefore there has to be a God who created the universe'.

There are at least two insuperable objections to this statement. Both have been offered on ATS before, but here goes for the umpteenth-plus-one time:

1. The statement just pushes the question of origins back one step. If you need a god to create a universe, then you need something even more godlike to create the god. And so on, in infinite recession, for ever. Turtles all the way down.

2. Time only came into existence when the universe came into existence, so there is no need to imagine any pre-existing conditions at all, God included.

Look, believe in God all you want, but forget about trying to prove God's existence, because it is not possible. People have been trying for thousands of years. Many of them came up with propositions somewhat more sophisticated than yours. All were demolished with ease by people with a philosophical turn of mind. Did you really expect to fare any better?

Originally posted by donwhite

I thought nitpicking was our game? No offense taken. All posters here are of equal rank.

The thought becomes truth, so it must Be Our game. All of Existence plays its roll equally, glad it has Been noticed =)

Nicely put.

Thanks, Been practicing the golfing game.. oh, put. Thanks.

This sounds a bit like Oriental mysticism, like the Hindu. I would not disdain this but it requires more input than I want to invest.

It is Existence, given by Existence, taken from No where but the mind. Did Not study Oriential mysticism, Not familiar with the Hindu. Investing between Outvesting input and output, while accepting both, is the source.

Beware of circular reasoning. In the area of science and technology, I do subscribe to the conviction you cannot invent or create anything until you can conceive it.

There Exists No reasoning, Existence is thought, Existence is conscious, thought is consciousness, consciousness is the Existence; conception is in the imagination

"God" can Be unchanging by "God" all ways changing.

I’m not talking about the properties of God, but of the assertions made by adherents to Christianity who declare the Eternal Nature of God as a way to claim authority by having either the once delivered written word as in Protestantism, or by having the ear to hear God as in the Vicar of Christ of Orthodox Christianity (Catholicism).

Stick to Existence and Everything will Be revealed... in gaining Nothing.

I prefer more concrete definitions. But I respect yours.

Thanks. Concrete is primitive, turns the ground into rocky wastelands. Colors are beautiful, oxygen is good, but when the thought can Be cast into a concrete mold, will let you know.. hey, wait. Is that Not concrete itself? The thought of concrete created concrete. There it is.

Note of importance: Concrete has all ways Existed, Human simply figured In how to make it, or rather, concrete came to Human

[edit on 3-1-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal

“ . . It is Existence, given by Existence, taken from No where but the mind. Investing between Outvesting input and output, while accepting both, is the source . . Thanks . . Concrete is primitive, turns the ground into rocky wastelands. Colors are beautiful . . but when ‘thought’ can Be cast into a concrete mold . . will let you know . . hey . . wait . . Is that Not concrete itself? The thought of concrete created concrete. There it is. Note of importance: Concrete has all ways Existed, Human simply figured In how to make it, or rather, concrete came to Human . . “ [Edited by Don W]

I think you are still grappling with the challenge of systematizing your train of thought? I can imagine what you are expressing has value in setting the frame of thought, or tone of being, but it is leaving me with a blank when it comes to my day to day encounters. Getting to the mountain top is luring to the young, but when one becomes mature, plotting the journey is of the same value as making the trip. Good post!


[edit on 1/3/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite

What Color Is Concrete?

What color is Not concrete? The only concrete color seems to Be grey, and funny enough, grey is the color OF concrete as well. White could be called a concrete color until it meets a prism. Yet a prism could all so Be a three-dimensional figure with parallelogram faces and two parallel, congruent bases. On that note; dimensions all so cease to Exist in the consciousness that is speaking, the only dimension is Existence, is thought, is consciousness.

I think you are still grappling with the challenge of systematizing your train of thought? I can imagine what you are expressing has value in setting the frame of thought, or tone of being, but it is leaving me with a blank when it comes to my day to day encounters. Getting to the mountain top is luring to the young, but when one becomes mature, plotting the journey is of the same value as making the trip. Good post!

Thought is Not systematized, if it were We would Be at reasoning again, which does Not Exist. Frame of thought, that is pretty, yet still systematized, see, because it is being set in a frame. Being is, the tone is the music that flows from it. Have your "days" encounter you and the beauty will overflow. Do Not "get" to the mountain top, learn how to Be the mountain, then there is no top to tackle. One cannot become mature, one only Exists as an illusion; one can all ways Be divided, never is there truly one. Be the journey and the trip, do Not separate from it, there is No plotting necessary. Live to love and love is life. Thanks again. The chat is bringing a pleasant atmosphere

[edit on 3-1-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

negative nothing add a little more negative nothing equally a positve negative change to x sumthing god is a number like 0 or 1 and thats why i dont like maths

Originally posted by Grimnal
negative nothing add a little more negative nothing equally a positve negative change to x sumthing god is a number like 0 or 1 and thats why i dont like maths

Nothing does Not Exist. To have a negative Nothing would mean to have something. So you are stating: positive something, add (subtract?) a little more positive something, equally a positive-negative? Elaboration please. A "positive negative" would Be equal. Change to x something? And all of this equates somehow to God Being a number? Would you please exemplify and add commas where necessary.

Gratitudes

Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it turned into a beautiful butterfly

[edit on 3-1-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

I have no idea what the point of this argument is, but negative Zero is still Zero.

I think the idea is that matter is created by Nothingness splitting into a particle and an anti-particle.... +1 + -1 = 0
The mechanism behind this split is one of the Great Mysteries.

And yes, if Time is a dimension, and a Physical property created with Time and Energy, then there was no time before there was physicality.