The Phoenix Lights Case - In Depth

In the past I was "mad" because I thought that it was wrong that the media and others were talking about the phoenix LIGHTS as the lights (!) being the thing at issue here and not so much the actual (alleged) triangle UFO(s).

I had the belief that back when this happened there were the lights and a separate event where people saw this alleged huge craft. In fact I believed that the lights were flares, deliberately launched by the gvt. to "disguise" the actual UFO event.

Recently, I had to revise my opinion here again.

I now believe that witnesses who reported the alleged UFO are indeed referring to the lights (!) which they saw as a giant, triangle craft.

I also saw multiple videos/reports which seem to confirm this suspicion.

There are just a whole number of problems here:

* As mentioned already, there doesn't exist evidence about an actual SOLID CRAFT, no photographs, no video footage.

* There exists this very known footage of the phoenix lights (I guess every UFO buff has seen this already 100 times), and I say this frankly, it does NOT look like a craft to me, not even remotely. I looks indeed very much like flares, I am afraid.

I see there are people in this thread who actually witnessed this event.

Here I would like to ask a question, and I do this without any evil intention:

WHAT DID YOU SEE?

Did you see an actual, solid craft where it was obvious that the lights were part of the craft?
Or:
Did you see the lights and then merely concluded that the lights are part of a craft, for example by seeing the lights moving and then stars, clouds etc. being obscured which made you conclude that it is a giant craft? (However you did not *see* an actual solid mass)

This difference for me this would be ESSENTIAL!

Again, not wanting to discredit witnesses accounts. But it's really often the case that people reporting they "see" something and then it turns out that what they saw is merely a conclusion or an assumption, but not *really* what they saw. I see this especially when we're talking about giant triangle shaped UFOs since almost not one single sighting of alleged giant triangle UFOs (minus potential undisclosed military craft of course, assuming they exist) mentions that people actually saw a solid craft. The vast majority of people saw LIGHTS and the rest is speculation.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

NoRulesAllowed,

Read my original report filed in late March 1997.

Google or Bing mike fortson phoenix lights

Mike

a reply to: mikefortson

Hi Mike, that's pretty great you pop in here, since I seriously would like to know: What you saw was no flares, I believe you, but why are the only videos from the after8 lights? Do you spoke to more people witnessing and were there weird disturbances during your sighting? Like electrical devices disfunctioning? An increased electro-static activity underneath the thing? Or are there "coincidences" happening to you since you saw it?

>>
Well yea, it seems pretty obvious to me at least, that the flares were dropped in direct response to the sightings earlier.
>>

UFO lore or wishful thinking.

Was there really separate events?

I have seen reports where it was clear that witnesses of the alleged craft did indeed describe the very same LIGHTS which for them became the craft (in their minds). Sorry to be so blunt.

There is no evidence for separate events but plenty of witness accounts where it's clear the witness is describing the lights. "A large wing-shaped craft", the exact shape OF THE LIGHTS, a large, wing-shaped shape. Watch any of the videos of the event and you will instantly see the "wing shape", sort-of like a triangle.

There WAS no separate event, just people seeing the lights

If you say there were separate events you're just repeating what you read somewhere, because at some time and somehow the myth popped up there was another event. (Proof? Evidence?). Probably BECAUSE the lights seem so ridiculous obviously not a craft, so "THERE MUST HAVE BEEN ANOTHER "REAL" EVENT", aside of the lights. Better even, "the lights were dropped as a diversion by the US gvt" to distract from the actual event.

You realize this is RIDICULOUS to believe this?

As a researcher or one being interested in UFOs you need to be honest, also to yourself. And being honest and truthful means to admit that it's more likely that people saw the lights and made them into a giant craft, rather than grasping a straw and talk about an alleged separate event where "a real solid craft" has been observed, without any evidence for this.

originally posted by: mikefortson
a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

NoRulesAllowed,

Read my original report filed in late March 1997.

Google or Bing mike fortson phoenix lights

Mike

I will!

a reply to: mikefortson

Also thanks, am watching secret access now. Alien sunday...

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

UFO lore or wishful thinking.

Was there really separate events?

Wow! are you really suggesting that there was only one event? That takes balls and is to be admired!

I am a little rusty on the facts of this case but isn't there a time line separating the 2 events? and wasn't it also seen at other locations away from the flare location?

Don't get me wrong, I like your thinking.

I understand your thread centers on the declared sighting reported to UFO related orgs. but you really should research the local Talk Radio station there in Phoenix KFYI....

they had ongoing black triangle reports from before 8AM up there in NV, Henderson then Kingman AZ

and all day long as the black V or Triangle done a huge (sightseeing tour) zig-zag' all over the State of AZ
by 5PM it already been seen in Ashfork, Wickenberg, Prescott, Mesa Verde, Sedona, Black Canyon City,
Cave Creek... by 6 PM it already glided over Camelback mountain/Squaw Peak/ISR/South Mountain/Chandler/Casa Grande on Its way to Tuscon...but reappeared in the South Mountain-Chandler area near 8PM

All day long there were phone-in reports by citizens of the fly over craft that were reported by KFYI.... contact the station see if they have recordings/ transcripts of that March 13th ufo flyover-sighting reports


btw, even as I was looking from 7th Ave+Camelback boulevard south to Estrella Park...as the radio was reporting the ufo craft being seen... I did not see anything gliding over ...as it would need to have been big like a 777 or at least 1500 feet altitude and there were no buildings over 5 stories tall in my line of sight... the air had that foggy pollution the Valley is known for

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
Is it possible that the first sighting -not the flares- was one of ours? What I am inclined to believe is that it was a large blimp like experimental thing...odd lighting on it producing some optical illusion of some sort...based on the location, flight path and testimony. I am also inclined to believe that there is some element of the mind "filling in" details.

yep...I call it an experiment launched from NW of Las Vegas... a group of docked 'drones' to form a huge craft which slit up independently at one location then re-assembled above another town...
possibly 8-12 drones with a reflective dish to project the LED source light being emitted

3 months earlier I eyewitnessed a triangle of lights both go and then return practically over my head at 30mph & 60'-100' high... this 12' triangle could be a related single drone or a 3 way link up of drones that followed the street pathway of lights as their navigation flight path (camelback Avenue, west side of the city~~ 11PM)

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

UFO lore or wishful thinking.

Was there really separate events?

Wow! are you really suggesting that there was only one event? That takes balls and is to be admired!

I am a little rusty on the facts of this case but isn't there a time line separating the 2 events? and wasn't it also seen at other locations away from the flare location?

Don't get me wrong, I like your thinking.

As I pointed out above, I was one of those firmly believing that there had been multiple events, even after I long turned rather skeptical when it comes to UFO reports and sightings.

That there were likely NO separate events just dawned on me recently by re-reading some reports and re-watching some shows and videos. Some of those shows featured witnesses which clearly referenced the lights/flares in how they described their sighting and what they perceived as a giant craft. (There is simply no reason to assume that they saw something else BUT those lights, flares or whatever it was.). In the typical fashion as is the case with most giant triangle sightings, the sighting happens at night, the witness sees lights...the rest, the "giant craft" is merely speculated.

"I saw a mile-wide triangle shaped craft" --- etc.

Reality:



Assumption:



Now, how more obvious can it get there is a relationship between sightings of the "craft" and the lights?

What indication is there for another, separate event EXCEPT witnesses who said they saw a craft..which, by coincidence, in dimensions and shape MATCHES the appearance of the lights?

So yes, I am claiming there was no other event until evidence is brought forward that there was indeed one or more other events independent from those lights.

a reply to: CrazyMonkey

Keeping a flight of Cessna ' s in your view with a telescope would be a pretty good feat. As they say, pics or it didn't happen.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

As I took it the sightings started before the flair stunt. Also it was moving in formation. And if you look at your reality photo, tell me please what the dark shadows between the light spots are? And the witnesses appear pretty credible and so many.
The pressconference afterwards is something I say somone proposed as a fun idea and that's exactly how the UFO distraction tactic works. Stay as close to reality as possible, but with a twist to make it look like you're joking.
UFO researchers already have it hard enough. 80% call you crazy 18% believe every bs you say and 2% are open and sceptical in a healthy balance.

a reply to: Peeple

re: the press conference

Even more ridiculous than the stupid appearance of the "alien" at the press conference was the "miraculous" revelation of the mayor (senator?) later on he did indeed also see the UFO.

Do I smell BS?

Do I believe a random politicians word...or do I assume that his words that he also saw the craft was merely what pretty much all politicians do...simply say what PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR, whether it's the truth doesn't really matter. (Politicians are good at that, so I am told...)

Think about it: At the initial press conference, the mayor was in a pretty humorous mood, the entire case was obviously so "funny" that they had someone in an alien costume for added entertainment.

Is this what you would expect from someone WHO CLAIMED AFTERWARDS that yes, indeed, he "also saw the giant craft" as so many in Phoenix? I can tell you that if I had encountered a giant, black triangle craft I would not have seen the press conference as a rather "humorous event" as he did.

The BS reeks, once again...as so often with UFO cases.

a reply to: Gazrok

Very Good Thread! Thx a lot!

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

As I took it the sightings started before the flair stunt. Also it was moving in formation. And if you look at your reality photo, tell me please what the dark shadows between the light spots are? And the witnesses appear pretty credible and so many.
The pressconference afterwards is something I say somone proposed as a fun idea and that's exactly how the UFO distraction tactic works. Stay as close to reality as possible, but with a twist to make it look like you're joking.
UFO researchers already have it hard enough. 80% call you crazy 18% believe every bs you say and 2% are open and sceptical in a healthy balance.

Look at the "original video", like here: www.youtube.com... and tell me where the lights are interconnected. They are not. Don't go by this random image, there are tons of images on "Phoenix lights" if you look around and none of them shows an actual shape. The image I used here is of poor quality as well, lots of artifacts etc. so it's not exactly the best for analysis.

Yes "it flew" in formation since the lights, whatever they were, were indeed in sort-of a formation. But so would be flares or skydivers at night or military operations. Point is we don't know what the lights were and can for that reason not say that those lights in formation would indicate something extraordinary, like an alien craft.

All I can tell you, from watching the video(s) and pictures it looks ANYTHING but a giant craft to me, the way how the light's then fade one after the other just adds to this impression they are not part of a solid structure. I am not an expert" but this is exactly how I would flares expect to look and behave.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed
Whenever I try to cope with something I joke about it. That's pretty common practice.
He appologised to the other people who saw it and it sounded sincere to me.
This "you can't believe what politicans say" is a generalisation I can't subscribe. There are and were politicians I like. Joschka Fischer, Sepp Daxenberger... You maybe don't know them.
Also the sighting lasted a while and was moving. Gouvernour watching it or not. Maybe you realise you trusting the military claims more than your public represantatives doesn't seem very logical...

Yes I know Joschka Fischer although I am not that much into German politics anymore since I moved to the US and now in Spain : )

But back to topic..did the military every *SAY* they did in fact have an operation going on where they dropped flares?

* If not: There is nothing to "trust the military claims" since such claims had not been made
* If yes: I could say CASE CLOSED. Because it looks like flares, military confirms "Oh yes, we dropped flares that night". Then why are we still discussing the case?

Can you see my logic here and WHY I am skeptical?

a reply to: St Udio

yep...I call it an experiment launched from NW of Las Vegas... a group of docked 'drones' to form a huge craft which slit up independently at one location then re-assembled above another town...
possibly 8-12 drones with a reflective dish to project the LED source light being emitted

OK. thanks.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

Now, how more obvious can it get there is a relationship between sightings of the "craft" and the lights?

You make a convincing case. Illusory contours created by lights in the sky at night are a no brainer for me. I may jump on your side but I would really like this to be a bunch of self assembling modular drones. Nuclear powered of course.

a reply to: Peeple

Peeple,

What my wife and I witnessed at 8:30 pm mst., from our then home in Chandler, AZ., was not flares. It passed in front of us. Not high overhead. The craft approached from the northwest and the background city lights gave off a grey background for the massive V shaped craft to pass slowly through. There was no question that what we saw pass before us was...one solid craft estimated to be at least 1 mile in length from the nose of the craft to the end of the left wing. Over 34 inches at arm's length. App. 2 miles west. Traveling at app. 35-40 mph. And totally silent. I have stated many times you could chase it with your car and not get a speeding ticket.

My response to no video's of the 8 o'clock craft. First it was 1997. No cell cameras with picture or video capabilities. Second. Rarely would one leave such an awesome sighting of something that is not supposed to exist to go fetch any camera or recording device. We told each other to not even blink. Why would anyone risk precious observation time getting a camera? And if so would the batteries be fresh, charged?

I have met and spoke with well over a hundred witnesses. Many found me because they were sick of the way local media was treating witnesses.

Three witnesses I have met had telepathic messages given to them. The one that strikes me the most was from retired airline Captain Trig Johnston. He was told, "we are not a threat!" His sighting occurred at 10:20 pm north of Scottsdale near Cave Creek. Most producers did not want Trig's report because it complicated their so-called "timeline".

Another was the Bradley Evans family driving north on I-10 from Tucson heading to Tempe for their daughters swim meet on Saturday. She was told. "do not stop, this does not concern you".

No one reported any malfunction of any electrical devices. If you were not outside looking in the direction of the craft...you would not know it was there. It was truly a peaceful, benevolent sighting with no damage. No witness ran for the hills, or jumped under the bed. All witnesses will tell you they were not frightened, but at peace with it. No fear Warm and fuzzy, if you will.

The weirdest thing happening to both of us was a persistent glancing at digitals clocks at 11:11. Still occurs today.

a reply to: Peeple

Peeple,

UFO's: Secret Access is one of the best. She would not allow the producers to push flares.

Flares were used on March 13, 1997, only as a diversionary tactic. The standard operating procedure of the A10 Warthog's flare dropping is 6,000' release, 3,000' ignition, and 500' extinguish. The LUU2 flare is magnesium.

Dr, Bruce Maccabee proved that in order for the flares to be seen at mountainside homes in the Phoenix metro area, they would have to have ignited at app. 17,000' altitude.

The flare drop by the military did it's job....the flares diverted attention away from the mass sighting earlier that evening.

Mike