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Socialist conspiracy for state control of housing

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posted on Jan, 3 2007 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by boyg2004
could be used as a tool to control if council housing was universal.


- Do you not know what the proportion of British domestic housing is currently privately owned?

....and if you do (or can be bothered to go & look it up) then how is this notion of "universal council housing" to come about if private housing is, by far, the predominant form of housing in the UK?


So there now opens up the possibility that this government, rather than just any government or a socialist/communist government, is manufacturing the collapse of the housing market because they desire control.


- I suggest you go away and learn some British political and economic history.

Rather than day-dreaming theories and claiming (with not a shred of evidence) that this Gov is trying to "collapse of the housing market because they desire control" you might care to examine what happens when the housing market does actually collapse.

Like it did under the tory party in the early to mid 1990's.

Do you have the slightest clue about the mortgage insurance schemes introduced since 1996 or this Gov's efforts in partnership with the mortgage industry to ensure there cannot be a repeat of the early - mid 1990's crash?

Seeing as I'm such a helpful old FSME I'll even give you a start as you clearly don't really know the subject at all
(although why I should go out of my way to assist you after that "if you think that you must be a retard" comment previously I don't know....hilarious, if breath-takingly risible, call for "respect" and "civility", btw).
Homeowners risk & safety-nets: Mortgage Payment Protection Insurance & beyond


Incidentally, does anybody know if the current doubling of house prices in some areas in such a short space of time (4-5 years) has precedent?


- Maybe whilst you are acquainting yourself with some facts about our recent economical history and in particular the record on housing and mortgages, whilst you're at that you might care to look up previous housing booms in the 1970's and 1980's.

Why do you think Labour's often repeated phrase 'no more boom and bust' resonated so much out in the country, hmmmm?

Maybe when you have equipped yourself with a few more of the facts you might then be in a slightly better position to debate and discuss the issues - especially if you are going to insist on going around here claiming to see conspiracies and plots in the current UK political landscape.


I still think radical ideology must follow their thinking to some extent.


- Well it's just a pity that you aren't able to actually give any specific examples of this radical ideology making a tangible appearance in Gov policy - even after 10yrs of Labour in office - then, huh?


[edit on 3-1-2007 by sminkeypinkey]




posted on Jan, 3 2007 @ 03:48 PM
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Do you not know what the proportion of British domestic housing is currently privately owned?


Yes. 70%. What's your point? Press here to save you looking for it.



Should Labour have a conspiracy to gain control of the housing market, and therefore exert more influence on the masses, one must introduce a collapse of unimaginable proportion. To do this, house prices must rise to a level whereby few working class people can afford the mortgage costs.

news.bbc.co.uk...
newsvote.bbc.co.uk... - tripling of house prices

Banks, suffering from loss of custom, would increase their lending threshold from the traditional three times the borrowers salary to an unprecedented level of four, five and six times the borrowers salary.

Co-op offers 5x salary

Minor interest rates can then badly affect the stability of not only the housing market, but the whole economy…

newsvote.bbc.co.uk...

In the instance of interest rates rising steadily to quell the housing price boom and curb borrowing, the government advises that wage increases must be reduced to cap inflation caused by a runaway housing market and incredible debt commitments by the British public.

Here’s some of your quotes from politics.abovetopsecret.com...




But approx 55% (£2.7 trillion) of this 'value', is in our residential homes!



The value of residential homes has more than doubled in the past 15 years.


From 1999 the average house value was circa £90,000.
Today it is put at £175,000.



Quite obviously, neither our income nor our GDP have expanded at anything remotely approaching the same or a similar rate."


So…

- a need by the government for wages to be capped
- whilst debt levels are at a record high
- whilst housing prices are at a record high
- whilst interest rates, and therefore repayments, are rising and predicted to continue
- whilst New Labour continue to tax the population at unprecedented levels
This is London

My conclusion is one of three things…

1) Labour is trying but doesn’t know how to stop a new boom/bust happening
2) Labour can’t hold its promises to the electorate unless it continues to tax at these rates whilst allowing the housing market to run out of control
3) Labour is deliberately engineering the situation to strangle the people who consider themselves middle class but are actually well-paid working class with the ulterior motive of reducing the personal debt of the populace by forcing it from them through financial disaster, with the added effect that they cannot borrow for a number of years. The bonus on their part is that they then have the ability to exert more control over those forced into council housing.



What is your conclusion on the current housing market, other than politically biased rantings about the failings of a party which has not been in office for ten years?


The tory party are especially useless in this (being little better these days that a party of petit-bourgeois narrow-minded estate agents with delusions of grandeur).
They are completely ideologically blinded to the idea of social housing (unlike their more patrician 1950's tory fore-bearers).
They have no answers here and offer nothing but more of the same, booms and busts, winners and losers which are afterall just part of what they crave ideologically anyway, ultimately.




Although I can now see why you’re arguing this case against my theory so fervently…


Along with this expansion of the renting sector we need European style capital gains taxes to moderate and in time snuff out the inclination towards this crazy house inflation that is seeing fewer and fewer young people here able to afford their own home.


Is that perhaps deliberate? So we can be more like the socialists of some European countries?


mod edit: cut down length of link to correct page width

[edit on 3-1-2007 by UK Wizard]



posted on Jan, 3 2007 @ 06:34 PM
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Originally posted by boyg2004
Yes. 70%. What's your point?


- A growing 70%; a scale of private housing that couldn't be further from your notions of council housing being "universal".


Should Lab have a conspiracy to gain control of the housing market, & therefore exert more influence on the masses, one must introduce a collapse of unimaginable proportion.


- Which I'm sure is a fascinating prospect to you but it's still one that resides wholly in the realms your own fantasy.

There isn't a single serious commentator that believes Labour is attempting to "gain control of the housing market" in the manner you keep trying to claim, nor of trying to "introduce a collapse of unimaginable proportion".

Where do you get this nonsense from?

All the recent serious international comment (some of which I have reproduced earlier) is saying that, whilst one cannot ever be complacent, the British economy is in very good shape -surprisingly good considering the length of time it has been going so well and the general cyclical nature of economics.

You might not like that but that is the truth of the matter.


Banks, suffering from loss of custom


- Did it ever occur to you that banks are simply adjusting to the present realities of todays market
(in it's free & liberalised present condition thanks mainly to changes made by the tory party during the 1980's - 1990's)?

Or are all the banks now all in on this 'socialist plot'.....& all the serious international commentators blind to it?


In the instance of interest rates rising steadily to quell the housing price boom and curb borrowing, the government advises that wage increases must be reduced to cap inflation caused by a runaway housing market and incredible debt commitments by the British public.


- Yes & if the sun fails to come up tomorrow we're all in trouble then too.

Stringing a series of highly unlikely 'just supposes' together without any evidence of the events themselves actually happening is not really much of a theory.

UK interest rates are still historically very low, despite the moderate recent rises, as is our inflation.

......& the amount of private debt the public have saddled themselves with, whilst in parts (but only parts) alarming, is hardly the 'fault' of the Gov.


Here’s some of your quotes from politics.abovetopsecret.com...


- .....and?

You'll not find anything in what I wrote supporting your
'it's all a plot by this Labour Gov' hogwash.


So…a need by the government for wages to be capped


- This indicates nothing & is hardly anything new.
British Govs since the mid 1900's on (of all political 'colours') have periodically called for, & even forced, wage restraint, esp in the public sector.


whilst debt levels are at a record high


- This is a worry but it is private debt that is the worry, not the public sector's debt levels (which as a % of national earnings are relatively low).
Private debt is relatively high but the national debt is not.....& private debt compared to earnings & the assets on which it is secured is not generally a problem.

Of course if you insist on going with the whole idea of a 'total financial melt-down scenario' then all bets are off.....& so is the idea that the Gov could gain "control" in the resultant chaos.
Everybody would be in deepest trouble, public and private sector.

But you also seem confused here.
Are you now advocating the state directly step in to (& take control of) the public's private debt (private financial affairs)?


whilst housing prices are at a record high


- I have expressed my concerns at the 'monopoly money' state of the current housing market.

But, given the background & the market's private character, laying all of these problems at the door of this Gov is both illogical & wrong.

How about if we get Japanese style prices or inheritable mortgages?
The sky didn't fall in for them either.


whilst interest rates, & therefore repayments, are rising & predicted to continue


- Yes but only moderately.

Nobody serious is talking about a return to the enormous heights (nor sustained for such long periods) as they were under the last tory Gov.


whilst New Labour continue to tax the population at unprecedented levels


- No.
It's just more lazy biased garbage editorial from the Mail group (the Standard is part of).

With tax credits & benefits accounted for UK personal taxes aren't high, a little higher for some, it's true but not most.

What they don't like to admit is that yes it is perfectly true that the 'total UK tax take' has risen to a record; but only cos UK earnings are so high.
British business taxes are low too.

It's pretty basic economics but for the lumpen right-wing it's clearly a concept far beyond their pathetic grasp.

It's also always better to pay a little more tax in a stable, successful & functional economy than little or no taxes in an economic disaster zone.
If you really can't 'get' that then try Iraq or the Sudan for a year, I hear the tax rate is very competitive!



Labour is trying but doesn’t know how to stop a new boom/bust happening


- There's no such thing as the completely controllable mixed economy (which the British economy is - & always has been post-war).

But compared to all their post-war predecessors this Labour Gov has done a remarkable job in keeping the economy stable & even expanding (to trend and sometimes above trend too).


Labour can’t hold its promises to the electorate unless it continues to tax at these rates whilst allowing the housing market to run out of control


- ?
Your basic premise here that Labour is taxing at a historically high rate is simply wrong.

.....& 'they' are not "allowing the h/market to run out of control", haven't you noticed the recent rises in interest rates
(which btw has happened before under this Gov & it did work in moderating the market)


Labour is deliberately engineering the situation


- Well once again we come back to it......what?

What policies, Acts & Laws have they been enacting that are going to do this?

I'm all ears, really.


to strangle the people who consider themselves middle class but are actually well-paid working class


- How are the Gov going to "strangle" people? By doing what, exactly?


with the ulterior motive of reducing the personal debt of the populace by forcing it from them through financial disaster


- What "financial disaster"?


with the added effect that they cannot borrow for a number of years.


- Are you now trying to claim that if people who have borrowed too much & find themselves unable to borrow even more then it's the Gov's fault!?

Talk about wanting it both ways, again.



The bonus on their part is that they then have the ability to exert more control over those forced into council housing.


- Meaning what exactly?

First of all we already have been through how council housing is no longer there to take people in the 'crash numbers' you seem determined to imagine.....whether private or public the UK has a housing shortage.


What is your conclusion on the current housing market, other than politically biased rantings about the failings of a party which has not been in office for ten years?


- My conclusion is that we have some serious problems (as I have clearly already said).

The reason why we are where we are is perfectly relevant & pointing the finger at the tory party for what they did (especially when the instincts in this remain unchanged) seems perfectly fair comment to me.

However a long complaining & biased rant about the present Labour Gov (whose record here is excellent when compared) with deluded notions of people "under more control" doesn't seem to me to be much of a serious analysis.


Although I can now see why you’re arguing this case against my theory so fervently…


- Sadly I don't think you can really.


Is that perhaps deliberate?


- Excuse me?

Is it deliberate that I should look to EU economies where housing inflation is much much lower than in the UK and, seeing that price stability as a good thing, wish to take what lessons we can & see it achieved here?

What do you think, huh?



So we can be more like the socialists of some European countries?


- You see it's when you start this ridiculous 'playing both ends against the middle' that it become patently obvious that you are either deeply confused, don't know the subject or are plain trolling.

BTW despite the name-calling of some ignorant people in the UK (& US) media Europe doesn't have any 'socialist' economies either
(with the possible exception of Sweden.....& even that's highly debatable).
There isn't a single EU economy with state activity over 50% of all economic activity (which is the actual definition).
The state share of economic activity across the EU has been reducing for decades, actually.

You blame the workings of a private housing market on this Labour Gov & yet you accuse any attempt by them to moderate the clear & harmful excesses of that free market as 'socialist control' & attempts to "take more control"
(whatever that is actually supposed to mean)
& all despite being utterly unable to point to any actual "far left" practical actions by the Gov.

Why is house price inflation the 1 type of inflation this Labour Gov isn't allowed to fight, because you see signs of scary "far left" 'socialism' & attempt at "control"
(even tho tory Govs, including Thatcher's, have at times over the years done the exact same thing)?

[edit on 7-1-2007 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 09:13 PM
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Knowledge speaks but Wisdom listens.

When the first Council Houses were implemented by people such as Saltaire the reason it worked as a form of control was because the people had no choice. They went to work for people such as this man, then their family was moved into the house and so on and so fourth. Eventually they had no choice, aside from poverty. In contemporary society this rarely happens, such purpose built establishments are not as common as they used to be.

What we see now though, is a similar thing happening. But no longer are they indebted to the company they work for but rather now the Bank. Up till more recently the length of a mortgage was 25 years, more recently this has been extended to 35 years. This forces you to work for this period of time, just so you can live somewhere. However, this is not directly the Governments fault. Whenever there has been a high period of prosperity banks have given out more and more money. The reference to this is the United State’s of America, prior to the Wall Street Crash of 1929. However, the lessons that happened here we have still not learner.

The Government did not benefit from the Wall Street Crash, the only people who did were the Elite. By the Elite I mean those in charge of the Banks, those who got given the land when it was reposed. It’s not the Government who get this, in fact whoever is in charge when this happens is likely to be heavily punished by the Public. Those who benefit are the Elite, it will not be Tony Blair, it will not be Gordon Brown or any other member of the Labour party. Just to clarify I am not a Labour Supporter, I am a diehard Socialist and cannot stand what the Labour Party has done. However it is the rich who will gain from this, it is those who wish to split our country down Party Political lines.

Eventually there will be a slow down to the market; eventually there will be another decline of the economy. There’s never been a period of consistent growth that’s the primarily problem with the Capitalist Economy. Furthermore, the level of increase is partially inflated by estate agents – these people and these companies tend to be owned by the same people who own the banks. When a house next to me was put on the market and another on the same company, only one was displayed at a time. This of course was explained to the owners as them being able to get thousands of pounds more if they were willing to wait a little longer. The problem is three fold, you have the Bankers who are willing to lease money at extortionate interest rates, people over inflating the prices of their houses and a lack of housing. There are too many three and four bedroom properties being created, when the average first time owner will only need two (normally one) bedroom. Then you have the problem with how houses are being constructed, in the modern age we should be looking at houses that will:
  • Last,
  • Produce their own forms of energy (through solar power) and;
  • Be economically friendly.




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