Are skeptics disinformation agents?

Originally posted by IronMan
Erm, I didn't think I was being over the top when I
mentioned a 100% guarantee.
You're asking people to 'dump' their belief systems,
the idea that they're not top of the tree, the idea that
the world around them has been a sham, controlled by
Governments who are hand-in-hand with aliens.

Actually, I'm well aware that I'm not "top of the tree." Government is by nature power and control, and the one with power and control more often than not is corruptable. I suppose if aliens were here and infiltrating world governments, by definition they would be "top of the tree" and most powerful, and by the law that absolute power is apt to corrupt absolutely, would be corrupted.

But I think it's easier for the human mind to blame Martians or Pledians or Grays or what-have-you for the evil that befalls this world than man's own sinful nature and lust for power and gain.

I've grown to believe that the more honest, kind and considerate a person, the more powerless they are in the scheme of the world. The world -- as a whole -- upholds aggression, greed, gain, power and pleasure. Those who try to live their lives another way are often the ones disinfranchised. And those who want what the power elite have often succomb to their sinful nature.

Just a little philosophy for you. And there are no little green men involved.

Think about it, if I told you that the Earth is square,
and referred you to a website, would you instantly
accept my statement or would you investigate it
seriously and with a balanced view?

No..I'd laugh in your face and call you Sally.

Remember, most so-called skeptics are merely
disappointed with the same old stories of mystery,
unproven revelations and finally, either a hoax or
an official answer that's ridiculed by certain parts
of the public.

Thank you! You just supported what I've been saying all along about Ufology.

Being a skeptic does nothing more than try to bring credibility into a subject that is otherwise convoluted and disjointed.

That's a great comment and certainly serves as a point of distinction between "skeptics" and "debunkers".....

Originally posted by HaveSeen4Myself
Sure you are. We all are to a varying degree. I had an encounter which involved both close range visualization of a UFO and interaction with a physical EBE. The things that were imparted to me I can't explain.

Okay....so you come on here, saying skeptics are basically disinfo agents because we question everything. And then you talk about your experience and finish it with the brief "the things that were imparted to me I can't explain."

Seriously? You want skeptics to be fair and impartial and investigate that with all credulity?

So in essence, you come on here, call people who actually call a frog a frog a bunch of beligerent liars and then place yourself upon a pedastle by, and I'm paraphrasing, claiming you have met with ET and we're not worthy enough for you to share your knowledge with.

Am I getting this right?

....I think I hear your mom calling you for dinner. Better get a move on.

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
What do the skeptics have to say about the French government's recent statement on UFOs and its release of this information to the public?

That in itself is an undeniable and obvious disclosure. The French government is admitting there are unidentified flying objects in and around the atmosphere of Earth

[edit on 30-12-2006 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

I can't wait for this information to be published on their website! Nevertheless, I'm still expecting that there will be information that will be excluded in those documents for one reason or another and it will hard to determine what that information is.
But at this point in time, at least they are publishing something and I'm sure whatever is in there will be very informative!

I'm not saying aliens don't exist or that Lonnie
Zamora lied, I'm saying where's the evidence?

A skeptic needs more evidence than 'I believe'
also websites and fuzzy pics aren't evidence.

People supposedly get abducted by aliens and
nobody has any physical evidence that DEFINITLY
shows it's going on. I'm not talking about post-evidence
like scoop-marks or lesions.

I'm saying that everytime with abductions or when
someone supposedly breaks rank and comes out to
expose their job at Area 51, there's no anal wrench
stolen or any skin samples from hybrid children.
There's a hula-baloo when the guy comes on -line and
talks of revealing information that will show the world
that the military and the Government are in cahoots
with aliens and are selling off our planet and it's inhabitants
for stealth technology.

One disc, crumpled in somebody's garden, with TV cameras
and Journalists scuttling about and laundry flapping along
it's hull, that's all I need.

Then you could call me Sally.

I'm not saying aliens don't exist or that Lonnie
Zamora lied, I'm saying where's the evidence?

To be more specific, you're saying, "Where's the PHYSICAL evidence?"
There is plenty of good evidence showing extraterrestrial visitation. It exists in the form of verified documents, credible witnesses, credible video and photographic evidence (especially from the past) amongst other forms.

Physical evidence of anything that is "classified" is fairly easy to confiscate if and when it goes public. Additionally, such material is just as easy to dismiss and explain away through a number of easily acceptable solutions.

For example, a UFO crash in a major city. The government claims it's an experimental nuclear powered drone and that a radiation hazard exists. They cordon off the area, and a few days later provide schematics from Lockheed, etc. that supposedly show the craft is a prototype. It goes away, and the public forgets about it the next time Britney Spears flashes a breast, etc.

That's just one example, but I believe it shows how easy it would be for an entity connected with the military to retrieve any physical evidence that comes to light, short of a landing on the White House lawn. The same could (and has) happened when top secret planes crash, and retrieval teams are needed. If we are to assume we are being visited and that some entity within government is aware of it, and keeping it secret, then we have to assume that physical evidence would be highly classified and retrieved at all costs, and likewise discredited.

Gazrok, if I read your last post correctly, you seem to be saying that government agencies and/or military forces would sanitize the crash site of an extraterretrial vehicle just as they would the crash site of a Top Secret aircraft (perhaps something from Area 51?).

I agree that the government would use the same due diligence in both cases. After all, using Special Access Programs (SAPs) as examples, we would be talking about the utmost level of secrecy available. I'm talking about compartmentalized "black" programs. There is no higher level of secrecy than SAPs. There is no more definitive directive than: "Clean-up is top priority." The government has the ability to take control of a crash site for as long as necessary to accomplish that mission and virtually limitless resources for that purpose.

That means we can use actual documented accounts of government crash retrievals of "black" projects as baseline data to compare to alleged UFO crash retrieval incidents.

There are numerous case studies to choose from including incidents involving a wide variety of spy planes, stealth aircraft, experimental vehicles and nuclear weapons. Some of these incidents sound very much like classic UFO crash retrievals:

The programs had the highest level of classification (SECRET/TOP SECRET Special Access Required).

The vehicles crashed on public land in close proximity to a civilian population.

Civilian witnesses were interrogated and/or warned by government officials to “forget what you saw, don’t talk about it.”

The crash sites were secured and controlled by government personnel for as long as deemed necessary to conduct recovery operations.

Recovery crews had high levels of manpower and motivation (cleanup was top priority).

As a starting point, we might begin with Project OXCART, developmental testing of the Lockheed A-12 reconnaissance airplane at Area 51. It was the first aircraft to have its design driven by anti-radar ("stealth") characteristics. While not completely stealthy, it incorporated advanced electronic countermeasures and state-of-the-art materials. The airplane also demonstrated unparalled performace characteristics. The first flight took place in April 1962. The first crash occurred in May 1963 while the project was entirely in the "black." Later models, the YF-12A and SR-71 were publicly surfaced in 1964, but the A-12 remained classified until 1981.

Here are two fairly recent investigations of A-12 crash retrievals:

www.dreamlandresort.com...

www.serve.com...

The results should be wonderful news to UFO investigators researching UFO crash retrieval events.

posted by behindthescenes:

So in essence, you come on here, call people who actually call a frog a frog a bunch of beligerent liars and then place yourself upon a pedastle by, and I'm paraphrasing, claiming you have met with ET and we're not worthy enough for you to share your knowledge with.

Am I getting this right?

....I think I hear your mom calling you for dinner. Better get a move on.

(...) I'm going to deal you the blunt force answers that you supposedly seek.

First of all, I'm 40 years old and haven't had a mother to cook me dinner for 20 years.

Secondly, my personal experience with ET niether pertains to you nor is it any of your business.

Now, let's get the facts straight. Let's suppose that there are no ETs who are helping to guide us here on Earth. Suppose I am making this up... the worst result of my actions would be what... to appear crazy and to give people false hope?

Now consider that what I say is true... that there are indeed ETs who are omnipresent, but have a prime directive not to interfere with our lives except under special conditions. What would be the worst result of your actions? To deny and ridicule someone who is trying to make people aware of the single most incredible phenomenon in the history of mankind.

I must ask you behindthescenes, what is YOUR purpose? You call yourself a researcher, but I must call into question that which you research.

I've laid it all out for you here. You can continue to attack for as long as you have the strength. That doesn't mean that I will go away or that the message will change.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Removed personal attack (...)

You have a U2U

[edit on 8/1/07 by masqua]

Alright you blithering windbag.

Blithering windbag? Is that a step up from blithering idiot?

Now, let's get the facts straight. Let's suppose that there are no ETs who are helping to guide us here on Earth. Suppose I am making this up... the worst result of my actions would be what... to appear crazy and to give people false hope?

There is no "worst" involved. If you're making this up, then you're in good company on the UFO forum with many other posters who claim the fantastic. If you truly believe what you're saying is fact, then we could have an ongoing debate about the true nature of your experience. I could argue -- with scientific evidence behind me -- that you may have experienced a lucid hallucination as a result of drugs, or of some brain disorder or psychological manifestation like schizophrenia. I'm not claiming that you're schizophrenic or suffering from delusion , my point was to show that I have the preponderence of evidence behind me to demonstrate that your experience has more of a chance of having a worldly explaination while you have yet to offer a shred of evidence for yours.

Now consider that what I say is true... that there are indeed ETs who are omnipresent, but have a prime directive not to interfere with our lives except under special conditions. What would be the worst result of your actions? To deny and ridicule someone who is trying to make people aware of the single most incredible phenomenon in the history of mankind.

Now I take this argument back all the way to your original post. Your belief is not the issue here. You made the blanket statement that all debunkers are disinfo agents. First you never really defined what is a disinfo agent, but let's assume that you mean the general idea: debunkers are paid government flaks who purposely go out and try to dissuade the masses from the "truth" of UFOs and paranormal experiences.

My point is that, quite frankly, skeptics are the only saving grace in Ufology at this point. If enough people are willing to critically analyze sightings, and toss out the chaffe, then at some point we're going to really find that nugget of wheat that will be indisputable.

I must ask you behindthescenes, what is YOUR purpose? You call yourself a researcher, but I must call into question that which you research.

I research people's claims on the paranormal. And I find that doing research on the person his/herself often can answer the questions as to the "Truth" of what that person's claims are. For instance, many here swear by Dan Burisch and his expereinces. While here is a man who makes claims to the ultra-fantastic -- and as such are difficult to prove because he offers no physical evidence -- when I did research on the man himself, I found very telling things in his background that contradicted his claims.

Does that make me a disinfo agent? Does that mean my purposes are nefarious? Nope. It makes me a truth seeker. And hopefully I contributed something positive to the field of Ufology that is generally full of ...well...crap.



[edit on 8-1-2007 by behindthescenes]

When you finish doing my background check, I'm sure you won't mind posting your findings. I stand behind my original claims 100%. Your reference to drug induced hallucinations and schizophrenia further illustrates my point. The broad brush that you use to paint those who claim UFO encounters is the typical tool of garden variety debunkers. For that reason, I see no injustice with respect to how I have similarly lumped skeptics/debunkers into a stinking pile.

Perhaps since you heard a female voice calling someone for dinner, you might want to make sure you've taken all your anti-psychotic meds... or talk to your doc about upping the dosage?

Originally posted by HaveSeen4Myself
When you finish doing my background check, I'm sure you won't mind posting your findings. I stand behind my original claims 100%.

Send me your name and address and I'll be happy to run one.

Perhaps since you heard a female voice calling someone for dinner, you might want to make sure you've taken all your anti-psychotic meds... or talk to your doc about upping the dosage?

Just remember, HaveSeen, that the pills are only effective if you don't skip a dose. Just a word of advice.

Alright, let's chill the personal insults.

Just remember, HaveSeen, that the pills are only effective if you don't skip a dose. Just a word of advice.

The last time I had an alleged UFO hallucination was in 1986, along with another witness, who saw the same thing I did. We both inexplicably lost about 3.5 hours of time also, which amounts to an incredible set of circumstances and one hell of a hallucination.

I'm not the one claiming to hear "voices" .

What are those voices telling you now? Do you ever answer them either verbally or mentally? This personality of yours that named itself 'behindthescenes'... maybe if you ask nicely, they will tell you what happened to the real you.

I'm sorry for trading personal insults and barbs with HaveSeen. Although the tete-a-tete was more tongue-in-cheek on my part (my mom comment insinuating that the poster was young, and as it turns out I was wrong), it was distasteful.

In making my point, I resorted to a schoolyard cutdown. Sorry.

Originally posted by HaveSeen4Myself


Just remember, HaveSeen, that the pills are only effective if you don't skip a dose. Just a word of advice.

The last time I had an alleged UFO hallucination was in 1986, along with another witness, who saw the same thing I did. We both inexplicably lost about 3.5 hours of time also, which amounts to an incredible set of circumstances and one hell of a hallucination.

Okay, so was lost time the starting point? When did you end up remembering what happened to you and your friend during those 3.5 hours?

Was this under hypnosis?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
fixed quote

[edit on 8/1/07 by masqua]

Originally posted by HaveSeen4Myself

Just remember, HaveSeen, that the pills are only effective if you don't skip a dose. Just a word of advice.

The last time I had an alleged UFO hallucination was in 1986, along with another witness, who saw the same thing I did. We both inexplicably lost about 3.5 hours of time also, which amounts to an incredible set of circumstances and one hell of a hallucination.

I'm not the one claiming to hear "voices"

.

What are those voices telling you now? Do you ever answer them either verbally or mentally? This personality of yours that named itself 'behindthescenes'... maybe if you ask nicely, they will tell you what happened to the real you.

Haveseenformyself.... be careful with your next response to what this person (behindthescenes) is asking. It's a just a bait and switch thing/tactic where he's being nice now but once you answer his question he will then switch back to his original persona he's using for this moniker and will respond with veiled insults where you will then politely respond back to address those veiled insults he made -- where this person will then respond back asking you why you were so OFFENDED at what he was saying .. once again putting you on the defense where you will once again politely address what he just said where he will then say the usual standard catchall "I've been very polite, no need to get all condescending and dismissive as I could simply do the same thing, but then where would we be without civility." or something along those lines... I've seen various versions of this phrase posted over and over in this forum by some of those members who are like the one you are talking with now. It's like sometimes they don't even change the words of that phrase and just copy/paste it whenever they want to use just to continue their cat and mouse game to see if they can finally get you to say something that one of the mods will come down on you for...
I'm finding that a lot of those members who are like him on this board are using such tactics all of the time and it's really unsettling because those of us like myself and like you only want to have an honest, intelligent conversation on those topics we are contributing to yet some members of this board are constantly butting in with these diverting statements loaded with veiled and not so veiled insults meant to divert from the original topic. They are not interested in what ever topic is being discussed and their only goal is to 'crush' you. It's a game for them.




[edit on 8-1-2007 by Palasheea]

Haveseenformyself.... be careful with your next response to what this person (behindthescenes) is asking. It's a just a bait and switch thing/tactic where he's being nice now but once you answer his question he will then switch back to his original persona he's using for this moniker and will respond with veiled insults where you will then politely respond back to address those veiled insults he made -- where this person will then respond back asking you why you were so OFFENDED at what he was saying .. once again putting you on the defense where you will once again politely address what he just said where he will then say the usual standard catchall "I've been very polite, no need to get all condescending and dismissive as I could simply do the same thing, but then where would we be without civility." or something along those lines...

Actually that's not my tactic. Was I leading him to something? Sure, I wanted to know if he discovered his UFO encounter under hypnosis. Why? Well, because I wanted to point out that hypnosis has a long and sordid history of leading people to say and believe things that aren't true. Remember the rash of accusations by children in the 1970's who, under hypnosis, claims to be subjucated by their parents in satanic rituals. These experiences even went so far as to have the children believe they were touched or met Satan or something along those lines. It was later condemned by the National Psychological Association as being bunk, with the hypnosis experts leading the children on to revel in fantasies while under a trance. And the net result was the destruction of a few families due to the unsubstantiated accusations.

Basically, I wanted to show that hypnosis in uncovering "missing time" is subjective at best.

I've seen various versions of this phrase posted over and over in this forum by some of those members who are like the one you are talking with now. It's like sometimes they don't even change the words of that phrase and just copy/paste it whenever they want to use just to continue their cat and mouse game to see if they can finally get you to say something that one of the mods will come down on you for...

Do you really think I'm trying to get HaveSeen in trouble with the mods? Be real. I'm having a debate, and a lively one at that. It just got carried away for a moment with traded insults.

I'm finding that a lot of those members who are like him on this board are using such tactics all of the time and it's really unsettling because those of us like myself and like you only want to have an honest, intelligent conversation on those topics we are contributing to yet some members of this board are constantly butting in with these diverting statements loaded with veiled and not so veiled insults meant to divert from the original topic. They are not interested in what ever topic is being discussed and their only goal is to 'crush' you. It's a game for them.

Actually, I was defending the role of skeptic. As stated earlier, we're hearing about another claim of an encounter with ET with absolutely no proof to back said claims up. That's all, nothing more. If you or anyone are bothered by my "tactics" at debating in this forum, there's always the ignore button.....

Thanks for the heads up Palasheea. I'll keep your advice in mind and move forward with caution.

Okay, so was lost time the starting point? When did you end up remembering what happened to you and your friend during those 3.5 hours?

I had a close encounter in 1978. I vividly remember seeing the UFO and interacting with an EBE. I was not under the influence of any drugs, alcohol, or mental illness. My memory of this encounter has remained intact and unchanged since the day it happened. I outlined this event about 3/4 of the way down, and a follow up post at the bottom of - this page:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I will describe the second event in greater detail.

New Years Eve 1985, a friend and I observed a UFO along the side of a four lane highway shortly after dusk. I was the passenger and my friend was driving. The car stereo had stopped working and I was fiddling with the buttons when we noticed some odd lights ahead of us. An object was ascending near the treeline on the left side of the divided highway as we traveled south.

There were three equally spaced lights that formed a triangle on the bottom of the craft and one very bright light in the middle, which was focused at a point on the ground. Once it got above the treetops, the center light went out and the remaining three lights started to rotate and the UFO cocked up on its side all in one slow, deliberate motion.

Now facing almost directly at our passing car, the lights remained motionless for about 1-2 seconds. Then, it silently shot directly away from us at about a 60 degree angle completely out of the atmosphere. In the span of a millisecond, it appeared to zig-zag thousands of times in a series of tiny straight lines, resulting in a mind boggling streak of light.

My friend and I both reacted by saying 'what the (...) ...holy (...)...did you see that? Yea man I saw it ...what the (...) WAS that?' (Pardon my language, but those were our exact words with emotion ad nauseum) Then we noticed there was absolutley no traffic besides us on the road as far as we could see - which was over a mile - in either direction. That was very eery and impossible, as we had both traveled this busy stretch of highway throughout our entire lives.

Then, as we started to see headlights cresting a hill ahead of us, the stereo started blaring... I must have maxed out the volume in my efforts to get some sound out of it earlier. This almost gave both of us a heart attack so we started cursing again as we both reached down to adjust the volume.

Niether of us wore a watch...due to the nature of our millwright work at the RJR Tobaccoville plant, any kind of jewelry posed a safety hazard. It wasn't until we located our very irritated girlfriends that we realized the 3.5 hours of missing time. They listened to our story with more than a little bit of skepticism, and were convinced we had diss'ed them on New Years Eve.

Of course, this came as a shock to my friend and I... and we both shook our heads and once again uttered a few choice expletives as we struggled with the idea of where all that time went. This aspect of our encounter has been the source of much frustration over the years. Still, to this day, we both remember the events just the way that I have described them.... and as far as we know, 3.5 hours disappeared in a millisecond.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fixed link and removed censor circumvention







[edit on 8/1/07 by masqua]

Wow! That's quite an experience you had there and it's great to be actually talking to someone like you who's been through it as it's the kind of stuff you read about on sites like UFO Evidence or see in the movies!

I really that one part was hilarious when the radio came back on in full blare like that and I can only imagine myself going into a fainting spell (i' m female) if the same thing happened to me!

But it's the part of the 3 and one half missing hours that to me is the most interesting and if I were you, I would not hesitate to at least go to a trained therapist who specializes in abductee's to see if this person can somehow extract what happened during those missing hours. I mean, really now... we are talking about over 3 full hours of missing time!! That's a lot and it's my guess that 'something' that you are not consiously aware of happened during those hours.
I would not be surprised if you've already gone to someone who could help you with this and if so, could you tell us about it?
By the way, the only thing I've read so far is what you posted in this post and I have not yet looked at that link of that other thread you posted at top of this page.. will look at that now as maybe you already talked about all of this.
But believe me, you are in good company because if you've ever read some of my other threads here... I and 3 others saw 2 triangle UFO's just last year... one of them was so close, it was the size of a small teacup saucer at arms length... but I'm just saying that I'm one believer that UFO's are real and I'm dead serious about finding out if our gov't is involved in the production of such craft because the ones I saw were as real as the chair that you are sitting in in front of your computer monitor....

The hypnosis thing is uncharted territory for me. I have never been hypnotized to my knowledge although I have looked into it. What I need is someone to explain the process to me in a way that eases my concerns. Over the years, several people have recommended various websites to me. The ones I felt comfortable enough to try and contact never got back to me, so I have never actually talked to a hypnosis therapist. Finding someone I can trust in that capacity might be an impossibility, especially in light of the 'Homeland Security' intrusions of late. Any suggestions?