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Are skeptics disinformation agents?

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posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 09:30 AM
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Originally posted by HaveSeen4Myself
Skeptics provide a valuable service? Mwahaha. Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. That's a valuable service is disinformation, which is also a disservice to valuable information. Anyone who doubts what I say only needs to look around at other controversial topics to get the full scope. The efforts expended dispelling ufology is only equalled by the 9/11 'conspiracy theory' debunking campaign. In other words, those upholding the 'official story' are often times the same individuals providing this 'valuable service' to the UFO community.


Alright, it is obvious now that discussing this with you is pointless.

As far as you are concerned me, and others like me, are disinformation agents who are payed by the 'powers that be'. Our singular purpose being to mock, discredit and troll.

Actually read through our replys to your claims.




posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 09:39 AM
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HaveSeen5Myself do you not see the irony in any of your posts? Pointing the finger at skeptics for researching other possibilities while your choose to believe with little evidence. Who really are the biased ones?


Believe WHAT with little evidence? I don't remember stating that I believe EVERY UFO sighting ever made. Quite the contrary, actually. However, skeptics are hell bent on trying to discredit any and all sightings. As a good example, I've never EVER seen a case of a skeptic being converted to a believer. In this very thread I posted information on what is probably the hallmark event of ufology, an actual attempt at first contact. Not one single skeptic has even acknowledged the validity of the media coverage that was attracted. Case and point.



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 09:44 AM
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Originally posted by polomontana
I think so.

I submit that many people in the UFO field are disinfo specialists who create a constant string of hoaxes. If there ever was any truth, it is discounted by all the lies and fakes out there.



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 09:46 AM
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Originally posted by HaveSeen4Myself
Believe WHAT with little evidence? I don't remember stating that I believe EVERY UFO sighting ever made. Quite the contrary, actually. However, skeptics are hell bent on trying to discredit any and all sightings. As a good example, I've never EVER seen a case of a skeptic being converted to a believer. In this very thread I posted information on what is probably the hallmark event of ufology, an actual attempt at first contact. Not one single skeptic has even acknowledged the validity of the media coverage that was attracted. Case and point.


Oh, I just cant resist sometimes.


Originally posted by HaveSeen4Myself
However, skeptics are hell bent on trying to discredit any and all sightings.


I ask you for one last time, and since you obviously didn't read my previous posts, I will try and make this clear: Stop lumping all skeptics under one flag. We are all not hell bent on trying to discredit any and all sightings.

Ignorant trolling and finger pointing only seems to be going on by one party here...and it does not seem to be the 'big bad skeptics'.



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 09:48 AM
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I submit that many people in the UFO field are disinfo specialists who create a constant string of hoaxes. If there ever was any truth, it is discounted by all the lies and fakes out there.


Absolute truth. Then, after they get through with the hoaxings, they get back to their real job as skeptics and debunkers of actual sightings.



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 09:53 AM
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Originally posted by HaveSeen4Myself
Skeptics provide a valuable service? Mwahaha. Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.


You have no idea who I am and yet you are lumping me in with 'skeptics'?? That's rather telling of you. The fact is that people who are skeptical of things and who INVESTIGATE first rather than simply believe all the junk being pumped out do indeed provide a valuable service. Anyone can say anything .. it doesn't make it true.

For the record - I believe in Ghosts, multi-dimensions, UFOs, aliens, and time travelers. I fully believe that the governement knows things about these things and is not telling. I fully believe there is a NWO conspiracy alive and well. I fully believe that there will be/is an anti-Christ and that he/she will be in power in my lifetime. I do NOT believe that the US government pulled off 9/11 but I do believe they covered things during the investigation. 9/11 was absolutely an al-qaida job, there is complete proof of that. And as far as the Annunaki - I totally disbelieved until about a week ago. Now .... I am open to that possibility. WHY? Because proof was given to me in the form of ancient Summerian texts.

So save your 'pat yourself on the back' comments. You have no idea who I am.


That's a valuable service is disinformation,...

Prove it. Prove that debunking crap is 'disinformation'. It isn't. It's SCIENTIFIC procedure at it's best. SCIENCE.


Originally posted by HaveSeen4Myself
I've never EVER seen a case of a skeptic being converted to a believer.


Then you need to get out more. I never, ever, believed in the Annunaki. Never. I thought it was junk invented by that David Icke fella. After viewing a post by a fellow ATS member last week on Summerian origins of life, I now am VERY open to the possibility that there are Annunaki. I don't know if they are actually reptilian - I still don't see any evidence that those exist - but I now have gone from firm disbeliever in Annunaki to having my mind wide open to the possibility.

So how many people are you tracking to see if they switch beliefs? My bet is none.
How many crappy theories are out there that have been debunked by skeptics? TONS. They serve a great purpose.



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by HaveSeen4Myself
Absolute truth. Then, after they get through with the hoaxings, they get back to their real job as skeptics and debunkers of actual sightings.


Absolutely ridiculous. I will be ignoring your posts from now on as you seem to lack the maturity to see past your own ignorance.



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 10:19 AM
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Okay HaveSeen,

I've read many of your other posts on other boards. You are an ardent defender of the paranormal and the UFO phenomenon.

You claim to have experienced something personally that has led you to the truth, and hence you can now see skeptics as nothing more than vile debasers of that truth.

Well, it's time to put up or shut up. Make us skeptics eat our own dirt. Show us something, give us proof that will stand up to 100% scientific analysis. You hold the truth? Then out with it.

And the more the better. You can share your personal story, but unless you have a souvenier of your encounter, no skeptic will back you. That's just the plain facts.

Here's the reality: Many of us skeptics were believers in our youth. For example, I thought Bill Cooper's Behold the Pale Horse was the gospel of the conspiracy. Then I grew up. I became a reporter who dealt in facts, learned to research, and began to dive into many of his claims. Guess what? Turns out Cooper was full of conjecture, misrepresented facts and what's worse, probably faked documents.

And it grew worse; every picture or video I've seen of a UFO crumbled when faced with a real scientific inquiry. I became disillusioned, hardened, and what more, really pissed. I mean pissed that there are so many P.T. Barnums trolling the UFO community hawking their crap as evidence. And you say, 'well, that way when the real evidence comes out, then everyone will be disposed against it because of all the other crap.' No way. You have something real beyond what Old Man Joe says happened to him 30 years ago on a remote farm, then I will be the first to trumpet your findings.

The truth is that the UFO community today is being beseiged by Hollywood and wanna-be celebrities. Studios craft viral videos of fake UFO and paranormal events to trump up the basic premises of future movies or videos. Wanna-bes will go to great lengths to show up on Coast to Coast AM and sell books or DVDs. What's the common denominator? Making money.

All at the expense of true believers such as yourself.



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 10:42 AM
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Are some apparently skeptical individuals really misinformation agents working to discredit certain phenomena? It is certainly possible. This question can be reversed, however, as well.

Are some apparently avid believers really misinformation agents working to direct interested individuals or parties away from more mundane explanations that might expose involvement by decidedly human forces? This is also possible, though often overlooked.

These questions can be further modified, however, by replacing the word "some" with the words "most" or "all." It is, unfortunately, when this happens that broad generalizations or assumptions rear their head.

Whatever side of the fence one falls on, it is my opinion that one should always discern between what one knows, what one hypothesizes, what one suspects, and what one believes. These are all radically different things, with different implications for truth.



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by HaveSeen4Myself
Believe WHAT with little evidence? I don't remember stating that I believe EVERY UFO sighting ever made. Quite the contrary, actually. However, skeptics are hell bent on trying to discredit any and all sightings.


May I ask to what standard you hold UFO sightings? You say you don't believe every ufo sighting, so how do you apply your own critical eye without succumbing to your own label of skeptic? Is it because you don't discredit EVERY UFO sighting? Or is it because you don't discredit UFO sightings while others do? Why would you consider YOUR judgement more sound than others?

Just some thoughts.



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 11:12 AM
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In order to be a believer you need nothing-NO facts, NO evidence, NO logic, NO deductive reasoning, NO cognitive thought.

In order to be a true scientific skeptic you must have all those things listed above. Let me use someones words instead of mine (I found this in Skeptic magizine from 1992) quote from outside source:


What does it mean to be a skeptic? Some people believe that skepticism is rejection of new ideas, or worse, they confuse skeptic with cynic and think that skeptics are a bunch of grumpy curmudgeons unwilling to accept any claim that challenges the status quo. This is wrong. Skepticism is a provisional approach to claims. It is the application of reason to any and all ideas—no sacred cows allowed. In other words, skepticism is a method, not a position. Ideally, skeptics do not go into an investigation closed to the possibility that a phenomenon might be real or that a claim might be true. When we say we are skeptical, we mean that we must see compelling evidence before we believe.

He continues:


...Modern skepticism is embodied in the scientific method, that involves gathering data to formulate and test naturalistic explanations for natural phenomena. A claim becomes factual when it is confirmed to such an extent it would be reasonable to offer temporary agreement. But all facts in science are provisional and subject to challenge, and therefore skepticism is a method leading to provisional conclusions.


The most important method of a skeptic is to adher to the scientific method. In brief the scientific method follows these basic steps:
1. Observation of phenomena.
2. Formulation of a hypothesis involving the phenomena.
3. Experimention or presentation of evidence to demonststrate to truth or falseness of the hypothesis.
4. Conclusion that validates or modifies the hypothesis.
5. Repeat

The truth is not subjective and individual feelings and delusions are not TRUTH! A scientific skeptic NEVER lets (in this case UFO) dogma cloud reason! The faith to which most believers hold, is no different the that of a religious zealot. This belief system does not work in lieu of rational thought, deductive reasoning and/or logic.

I submit that it is you, the "True Believers", that impeed the road to knowledge and truth.

If having an open mind makes one a scientific skeptic, or skeptic as you say, then I am proud to wear the crown!

Best reguards,
Casual Skeptic



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 11:12 AM
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I don't think ALL skeptics are disinformation agents, but I think some of them are. And I believe they are positioned in every civilian ufo group.

Because I highly respect Dr Steven Greer's work, I believe most highly respected ufologists who continue to propogate that alien abductions are orchestrated by aliens are agents of disinformation. Their purpose is designed to lead us into believing that aliens are enemies of mankind and that space based weapons are necessary.

This is not to say that I believe that all who claim that aliens are responsible for abductions are on the 'disinformation payroll', some may just be misguided or deceived.



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by Byrd

I submit that many people in the UFO field are disinfo specialists who create a constant string of hoaxes. If there ever was any truth, it is discounted by all the lies and fakes out there.



Hey Byrd,

I agree with what your saying about the constant string of hoaxes, although I don't consider those people to be "in the UFO field". However, I disagree that the truth is "discounted by all the lies and fakes". "Lies and fakes" can confuse people and can make the truth harder to find , but "Lies and fakes" do not discount the truth in any way.



[edit on 29-12-2006 by lost_shaman]



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by CasualOne
In order to be a believer you need nothing-NO facts, NO evidence, NO logic, NO deductive reasoning, NO cognitive thought.



This statement is representative of extreme narrow minded thinking. I

If I was to say all skeptics are narrowminded, that would also be a blanket accusation which would be as equally incorrect.

This is what I like about the work of Dr Greer. He has over 400 government witnesses that can testify to the facts, he has documentation, he uses a lot of evidence logic, reasoning and cognitive thought.



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by HaveSeen4Myself
Immediate steps were taken by the U.S. government, which quickly imposed a $10,000 fine and imprisonment for any further such media coverage of UFOs/ET.


To insure no "misinfo" on either side, could you please list the legislation and/or source for the "no coverage of aliens" law?

Because if you are referring to Title 14, Section 1211 of the Code of Federal Regulations, that legislation didn't pass until 1969. Not to mention that it has nothing to do with alien contact or media coverage of same.

FWIW, I consider the 1952 event as one of the best cases for multiple, co-incident evidence for something being up there.



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by eaglewingz

To insure no "misinfo" on either side, could you please list the legislation and/or source for the "no coverage of aliens" law?

[/uote]

This doesn't impose a fine, but it is a CIA document regarding control of the media.

www.disclosureproject.org...

Greater Government Control of the Press



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 01:56 PM
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Guess what? Turns out Cooper was full of conjecture, misrepresented facts and what's worse, probably faked documents.


Guess what else? Cooper got f'ing MURDERED. So a little respect for the dead might be in order here.



You can share your personal story, but unless you have a souvenier of your encounter, no skeptic will back you. That's just the plain facts.


My personal experiences are posted here at ATS and they aren't very hard to find. I don't waste my time trying to convert true skeptics. You seem to forget that this isn't my first rodeo, and I'm certainly not your clown.




May I ask to what standard you hold UFO sightings? You say you don't believe every ufo sighting, so how do you apply your own critical eye without succumbing to your own label of skeptic? Is it because you don't discredit EVERY UFO sighting? Or is it because you don't discredit UFO sightings while others do? Why would you consider YOUR judgement more sound than others?


Don't confuse the issue. True skeptics claim that not enough evidence exists for ANY UFO claim to be proven. The very existence of ET is called into question. The 1952 Washington, D.C. flap is monumental IMO because of a number of factors. The events leading up to the flap, how it was reported, and the events after the flap are all very telling. ANYONE who doesn't smell a rat there needs to come to their senses. I don't consider my judgement to be better than any other. I just feel that some of us have abandoned our ability to think critically for one reason or another.



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 02:18 PM
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I've read many of your other posts on other boards. You are an ardent defender of the paranormal and the UFO phenomenon.


You have me confused with someone else. I have not posted on the subject of the paranormal to my knowledge. To call me an ardent defender is certainly a stretch. But if you are a true UFO skeptic and have been around for any length of time, then you are correct in that we have crossed paths before and no doubt will again.



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 03:17 PM
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Originally posted by HaveSeen4Myself
But if you are a true UFO skeptic and have been around for any length of time, then you are correct in that we have crossed paths before and no doubt will again.


So you're just going from site to site, calling out skeptics. We see a lot of that here, usually someone who has a chip on their shoulder about how they've been received somewhere else and come here expecting the same. Their biggest mistake is usually underestimating the depth of knowledge and research that's been contributed to this forum over the years and the level of expertise that many members have. Your reference to UFO's over DC in 1952 is a good example of that.


In this very thread I posted information on what is probably the hallmark event of ufology, an actual attempt at first contact. Not one single skeptic has even acknowledged the validity of the media coverage that was attracted. Case and point.


That's probably because most of us that have been here a while are very familiar with the case and we have an excellent reference article written by Gazrok. www.abovetopsecret.com...

If you can add something to that article, I think you'll find your input well received. But if you can't back it up with facts and sources, you will definitely get to meet some more skeptics here and I guess that will validate your original views and you'll move along to the next website.

Good luck.



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 03:18 PM
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What evidence do the skeptics have? Hypothesis this? Theory that? Denial here? Lack of perception there?

Speculation and conjecture are manifestations of fear derived from Existential insecurity.

Extra-terrestrial is the word that flows into the conscious thought from the conscious Existence that We are. Thought Exists; thought is Existence. All that is thought, Exists

[edit on 29-12-2006 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]




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