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Saddam to Hang This Weekend?
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Originally posted by Muaddib
The last straw was drawn when SE Asian nations wanted to sue the United States for the tsunami of 2004...
You are right! I had forgotten about that. It made me so sick! Everyone wants middle class American tax payers to give them a free ride.
Here's another little gem that lots of people forget about -
www.youtube.com...
Another moment.
Originally posted by jsobecky
No one is asking anybody to applaud the execution. Nobody is being forced to watch the Towers fall (you must ask yourself why it bothers you more that it is being shown than it does that they fell).
I think Americans are being asked to applaud Saddam's death, yes. You don't?
Please do not try to imply that I am somehow insensitive to the WTC dead. If you can look deeper, I am speaking of the hypocracies which exist in regard to the images that are shown on television. I think we were forced to watch the WTC towers fall far too many times on television, and in the weeks that followed. You don't? You feel that it's important for Americans to see some images replayed over and over? Then why not treat us like adults and show Saddam swing? IMO it was crucial for the WTC event to be used to traumatize Americans visually over and over.
Did you notice what the kiddies got to see on Saturday morning television in Iraq? Before they even saw the hanging, the broadcast included stock footage of Saddam's beheadings, beating and torture. Yes, people are conditioned by the TV.
Anyway, after seeing the full video, I have this nagging feeling that the excutioners in the hoods may have also applied some drills to other Sunni bodies. It just seemed like they were the ruffians whereas Saddam looked dignified. He looked way too composed and I believe they have now made him into more than if they'd just let him die in jail. They granted him a martyr's death complete with people insulting him as he died. This whole event is designed to increase the conflict in Iraq.
[edit on 31-12-2006 by smallpeeps]
I believe of all the people that stood to benefit from Saddam's execution the Arabs were the most. Anyone here want to talk about the royal family
and their country's huge surplus?
Originally posted by khunmoon
Muaddib, it is you who make claims, that my informations should be nothing as such.
Me?...oh, so now you are using reverse psychology, or projecting your faults, trying to "claim" I am the one making the "claims".... sorry khunmoon, your farce has been found and pointed. Making claims and then again claiming "but all information has been hidden or destroyed" is an old trick just to keep a "claim" alive and have some people believe that claim. But anyone with some intelligence can see that since "there is no way to back those claims up" you have to make another "claim"...that all the evidence is hidden or destroyed....
Originally posted by khunmoon
For my last post all the info on the Bush Ancestors is from Wiki, you can easily check yourself. All I do is, in my judgement and million of others, to say executing Saddam in the middle of a trial is unpresidented and against ALL rules of justice.
Anyone can post and edit wiki, some information from wiki is not bad, but there is much which is only based on "claims."
Saddam was given a veredict, whether you liked it or not. A lot of criminals going to trial would love to have their trials set indefinetly, and some get their wish, and btw your "claim" that Saddam's trial only lasted a few months is not true. His first trial was in October 2005, more than a year ago, for what happened in Dujail in 1982. His second trial on August 2006, and in that trial he was tried, with 6 co-defendants, on the genocide of Anfal military campaign against the Kurds of Northern Iraq..... so, that claim of yours that he was not on trial for those crimes against the Kurds is not true....
[edit on 31-12-2006 by Muaddib]
Originally posted by Muaddib
His second trial on August 2006, and in that trial he was tried, with 6 co-defendants, on the genocide of Anfal military campaign against the Kurds of Northern Iraq..... so, that claim of yours that he was not on trial for those crimes against the Kurds is not true....
Who's claiming? Where did I deny he was on trial? Maybe I should remind you the most basic principle of justice is no one is guilty before proven so. But maybe you can give me a link that Saddams trial on the Anfal campaign proceeded to a point where he was proven guilty. No, you can't, because they interrupted the trial just before it got embarassing to the bigwigs, the pundits and the gangsters in Washington. Kill'm before they start talk is a basic rule in mob families.
But as I've stated (no claiming) in earlier posts, the documents to tell the TRUE story are there, concealed from public view, guarded by the family and insiders, so please stop your claims that I claim. Or give me some quotes where you think I do so.
I've watch other threads you have derailed, so I'm familiar with your spin and if you can't accept the Wiki as a source I see no basis for discussion.
Let me just say, you don't seem to get much support for your twisted, rather bizarre and definitely one-eyed view on the topic. Here's another I can agree on and you probably can't.
Originally posted by smallpeeps
Anyway, after seeing the full video, I have this nagging feeling that the excutioners in the hoods may have also applied some drills to other Sunni bodies. It just seemed like they were the ruffians whereas Saddam looked dignified. He looked way too composed and I believe they have now made him into more than if they'd just let him die in jail. They granted him a martyr's death complete with people insulting him as he died. This whole event is designed to increase the conflict in Iraq.
Yes, I wonder if others will look just as dignified the day they might have to walk to the gallow.
You know.. I've read the arguements here.. And I dont know why but I kind of felt sad for him.. NOT sad that he died.. He wasnt given a fair trial..
it was a show trial marked with the deaths of a number of people involved.. There was nothing judicial about his trial..
Also.. I am not saying that Saddam was a good person he wasnt, he was a murderer and a tyrant.. He did horrible things to people.. killed thousands of innocents.. But then again, so has George W. Bush.. When will his time come? He's just as much as tyrant and murderer as Saddam.
And from this story
Comes this quote
I personally believe two things.
1. This wont fix anything.. it wont change anything and nothing will come of this, the US forces are still in Iraq and will stay there.. Why? When Marines are quoted as saying "First it was WMD's then it was terrorism then it was WMD's again.. What is it now?" That's a bad thing.
And 2. I believe now that Saddam has been executed George Bush believes that there is no one standing in his way, Saddam was always the non compliant enemy.. Now who is there? Bush will feel like he can do what he wants when he wants how he wants..
And finally I have a question.. If Saddam was turned over to Iraqi forces? why was his body transported by US military helicopter to be buried?
From the story above..
Also.. I am not saying that Saddam was a good person he wasnt, he was a murderer and a tyrant.. He did horrible things to people.. killed thousands of innocents.. But then again, so has George W. Bush.. When will his time come? He's just as much as tyrant and murderer as Saddam.
And from this story
Comes this quote
Mohammed Natiq, a 24-year-old college student, said "the path of Arab nationalism must inevitably be paved with blood.
I personally believe two things.
1. This wont fix anything.. it wont change anything and nothing will come of this, the US forces are still in Iraq and will stay there.. Why? When Marines are quoted as saying "First it was WMD's then it was terrorism then it was WMD's again.. What is it now?" That's a bad thing.
And 2. I believe now that Saddam has been executed George Bush believes that there is no one standing in his way, Saddam was always the non compliant enemy.. Now who is there? Bush will feel like he can do what he wants when he wants how he wants..
And finally I have a question.. If Saddam was turned over to Iraqi forces? why was his body transported by US military helicopter to be buried?
Officials in Tikrit said the body was transferred by American helicopter to the U.S. military base at Tikrit from Baghdad, where Saddam dropped through the gallows floor and died shortly before dawn on Saturday.
From the story above..
Thanks for joining in Ox. I feel the same way as you do. Sympathy for a tyrant, that definately doesn't deserve any. But the whole way it was
conducted and those pictures of a fearless dignified man with his head high going into his death. The disposal of a useful head that became too
independent.
It's the ultimative defeat for America ...and the far biggest mistake in the endless string of absurdities the US administration have carried out since 9/11. And then they do it on the most holly of all the holliest days of Islam. The comments from the Arab world, that not only a martyr were created, but a prophet by chosing that date, will haunt the US for decades to come. Well, this is not mocking the Americans, but... How Stupid... an image they do everything to live up to ...or just ignorance?
The very last of the goodwill they earned fighting the nazis, liberating Europe, are going down the drain in this coming year ...sending more troops.
The World War gave the boost of sympathy that made America strong and the superpower it emerged as in the post war world. Because they fought a just cause, one of justice on the good-evil scale. The descent started with the Vietnam war, because the cause became ideological and questionable. But the American people still had its guts and common sense intact, safe and sound. So what eventually stopped that war was the protest and the civil unrest it spurred. But the price paid was a diversion of the society that was never really mended, and not to forget, created the outcasts and the alienation of a whole generation, who had to stand the taunting for fighting a war they didn't had the slightest idea what was about. That created problems, big scars in the American society which never has fully healed.
The scars this war is creating I don't have enough vision, or hope, or faith to imagine anything will ever heal. Or can, because disillusion is all too often incurable.
The time of the Vietnam war was quite another than today, I know that, but I wish a song with the all its irony and a humour that creates a distancen to the deadly subject, so it's possible to handle, would be written about the Iraq war. The one I have in mind was realeased 40+ years ago, about the Vietnam war of course, is Country Joe McDonald's Country Joe & The Fish: I-feel-like-i'm-fixin'-to-die Rag.
The lyrics can be found here.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
It's the ultimative defeat for America ...and the far biggest mistake in the endless string of absurdities the US administration have carried out since 9/11. And then they do it on the most holly of all the holliest days of Islam. The comments from the Arab world, that not only a martyr were created, but a prophet by chosing that date, will haunt the US for decades to come. Well, this is not mocking the Americans, but... How Stupid... an image they do everything to live up to ...or just ignorance?
The very last of the goodwill they earned fighting the nazis, liberating Europe, are going down the drain in this coming year ...sending more troops.
The World War gave the boost of sympathy that made America strong and the superpower it emerged as in the post war world. Because they fought a just cause, one of justice on the good-evil scale. The descent started with the Vietnam war, because the cause became ideological and questionable. But the American people still had its guts and common sense intact, safe and sound. So what eventually stopped that war was the protest and the civil unrest it spurred. But the price paid was a diversion of the society that was never really mended, and not to forget, created the outcasts and the alienation of a whole generation, who had to stand the taunting for fighting a war they didn't had the slightest idea what was about. That created problems, big scars in the American society which never has fully healed.
The scars this war is creating I don't have enough vision, or hope, or faith to imagine anything will ever heal. Or can, because disillusion is all too often incurable.
The time of the Vietnam war was quite another than today, I know that, but I wish a song with the all its irony and a humour that creates a distancen to the deadly subject, so it's possible to handle, would be written about the Iraq war. The one I have in mind was realeased 40+ years ago, about the Vietnam war of course, is Country Joe McDonald's Country Joe & The Fish: I-feel-like-i'm-fixin'-to-die Rag.
The lyrics can be found here.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Most people in the US don't really care about Saddam being killed. They are more concerned that we hit the 3,000 death mark in Iraq for US soldiers.
Originally posted by khunmoon
Thanks for joining in Ox. I feel the same way as you do. Sympathy for a tyrant, that definately doesn't deserve any. But the whole way it was conducted and those pictures of a fearless dignified man with his head high going into his death. The disposal of a useful head that became too independent.
It's the ultimative defeat for America ...
Another of your claims khumoon...is this evidence also "hidden by the elite , or destroyed" but somehow you among a few know everything that was supposedly in those "secret documents"?....
Here are some excerpts from the non-existant Anfal trial... and the account from one of the Kurd survivors.
August 22, 2006 · Saddam Hussein and others accused in the Anfal trial begin their defense against charges that they were responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Kurds. They say the Anfal mission targeted Kurdish militias and Iranian forces who were working hand in hand in Kurdistan during the Iran/Iraq war. The first prosecution witness took the stand, where he described how his village was bombed with poison gas.
www.npr.org...
In that link you will find a recording of one of the surviving kurds as to what happened during one of the campaigns of the Nafal.
Here is also some information on the investigation which the Human Rights Watch made on the Anfal campaign.
10. What was Human Rights Watch’s role in documenting the Anfal?
In 1992, after the Gulf War, Human Rights Watch sent a team of researchers to northern Iraq. For several months the team conducted extensive investigations. Its members interviewed some 350 Anfal survivors and witnesses and conducted soil analysis in areas where chemical weapons had been used. For purposes of safe keeping and analysis, Human Rights Watch was given 18 metric tons of Iraqi security documents that had been seized by Kurdish militias when government security forces abandoned the region. On the basis of the field research and analysis of documents, Human Rights Watch concluded that the Anfal constituted genocide. In 1994-95, Human Rights Watch attempted to persuade several human rights-minded governments to bring a case against the government of Iraq under the provisions of the Genocide Convention at the International Court of Justice. Unfortunately, nothing came of this initiative.
hrw.org...
Here is a link with a "summary" of what happened day by day on the Anfal trial, ther eis also another link if you scroll down with some more information on the trial.
news.bbc.co.uk...
Saddam did not hear his verdict on the Anfal trial because he was already sentenced to death from the former trial. i guess Khunmoon wanted to bring Saddam back from the dead and hang him again perhaps?...
Originally posted by khunmoon
......................
The descent started with the Vietnam war, because the cause became ideological and questionable. But the American people still had its guts and common sense intact, safe and sound.
.....................
Right, i forgot, people are questioning whether Communism ever existed and keep asking themselves to this day..."is Communism really that bad?"....yet apparently these same people "mysteriously" forgot, or just want to deny the fact that Communism has killed more people in this planet than all other wars together, including the two big ones. Over 110 million people killed by Communist regimes, and that does not include the number of soldiers killed in battle.
But khumoon wants to claim it was "questionable"... Communist regimes tried to spread "the revolution" around the world, and many of the conflicts and genocides that are happening around the world today are a direct result of this "spread of Communism"....yet Khumoon wants to claim "it was questionable and only ideological... it is obvious you have never seen what Communism does to a country and it's people.
I am still amazed that some people still find the "hippes" as if they were some form of enlightened beings"...all they did was getting drugged all the time hence the reason they couldn't understand what was going on most of the time....
Yeah, that would make the U.S. great again, having most people getting drugged all the time and not caring about reality....
How dare the Americans, and those who saw what was happening try to stop the spread of an economic and political system which killed over 110 million civilians?.... and how dare the Americans and others try to stop an economic system and political system which ultimate goal is the destruction of Capitalism and countries like the U.S......
And since khumoon wants to talk about war in Vietnam lets not forget the fact that there were "several wars fought in Vietnam" and the U.S. got involved in just one, just like the French did...
[edit on 1-1-2007 by Muaddib]
Originally posted by Muaddib
Originally posted by khunmoon
Thanks for joining in Ox. I feel the same way as you do. Sympathy for a tyrant, that definately doesn't deserve any. But the whole way it was conducted and those pictures of a fearless dignified man with his head high going into his death. The disposal of a useful head that became too independent.
It's the ultimative defeat for America ...
Another of your claims khumoon...is this evidence also "hidden by the elite , or destroyed" but somehow you among a few know everything that was supposedly in those "secret documents"?....
To know what you're talking about and as requested in previous posts, you got to use the quote box in relevans to what you wanna blame, mock me about, whatever, at least in relevans to what you comment. In the above, what is the connection between your comment and what you quote? I don't see any of the two phrases put in quotationmarks by you anywhere in the quote!
As I haven used them otherwhere in this thread and to the best of my knowledge in any others, I must insist you stop your accusations, as I don't maintain as fact what you claim I "claim", but only what I can document as such. Again, if your assertion is different, please show me where.
One thing though, I'm happy that I, thanks to credits provided by you, can support my "claims" concerning the so-called trial Saddam recieved.
What does Human Rights Watch see as the main obstacles to a fair trial?
Human Rights Watch's observed the Dujail trial and saw a number of serious shortcomings in how the Iraqi High Tribunal functioned.
These include: 1) An almost complete lack of familiarity with international criminal law on the part of all Iraqi lawyers and judges involved in the trial; 2) Chaotic and inadequate administration which has given rise to major problems in performing basic administrative tasks necessary for a trial of this magnitude to run fairly; and 3) Such extensive use of anonymous witnesses that the defendants did not get right to contest the evidence against them.
These shortcomings have been compounded by the sharp deterioration of the security environment in Iraq which has resulted in the murder of three defense lawyers, the reluctance of numerous witnesses to come forward, and serious limitations on the defense's capacity to investigate and test evidence gathered by the prosecution.
For justice to be done, this important trial must be conducted fairly. Based on extensive observation of the IHT's conduct of its first trial, Human Rights Watch believes that it is presently incapable of fairly and effectively trying genocide in accordance with international standards and current international criminal law.
Please note, this was the easy part, the Dujail trial. By the way on other threads I've read that in this 'piece of cake' trial the prosecution had to resort to bribing of witnesses. Yes, Iraq, not just the beacon of democracy and free elections, but certainly of justice, first and foremost!*fanfare*.
But you still owe me proof of a verdict was reached in the Anfal trial.
Here are some excerpts from the non-existant Anfal trial...
By the way, why you call it "non-existant"!!??? (non-existent)
Well, I'm not much into the disciplin of throwing around manure, neither horse nor bull, and as you obviously don't want to stay on topic, but now tries to derail it into a discussion of capitalism versus communism, I suggest we stop now. What has the following to do with Saddam?
I am still amazed that some people still find the "hippes" as if they were some form of enlightened beings"...all they did was getting drugged all the time hence the reason they couldn't understand what was going on most of the time....
Yeah, that would make the U.S. great again, having most people getting drugged all the time and not caring about reality....
I get a feeling you've been reading back in my post, which i find almost flattering, but you're probably not familiar with the phrase "turn on, tune in, drop out" or the time you're refering to, about the "hippes" (I presume it's "hippies" you mean), where the difference between junk and mind expanding drugs was a thing every boy and girl were aware of. But then "the merchants of death" took over, and they still are, "having most people getting drugged all the time and not caring about reality". Exactly, that's their agenda.
If you wanna discuss or bicker more off topic, please start a relevant thread.
Now the scandal surrounding the hanging starts to emerge.
Circumstances, as far from "justice carried out" or any other cliche clinging to the fair trail syndrome, prevailed in the execution chamber, we now know.
The string puppet al-Maliki tries to mend the damage by ordering an investigation into who brought in a video-phone. The unofficial footage now circling shows grave sectarian insults, which in the end only can sapur one thing: More Sectarian Violence in Iraq.
An Ugly Affair - BBC
Altogether, the execution as we now see it is shown to be an ugly, degrading business, which is more reminiscent of a public hanging in the 18th Century than a considered act of 21st Century official justice.
The key passage on the video-tape comes after the official version was cut off.
As Saddam stands there on the trapdoor, with the noose being tightened around his neck by one of the four executioners, their faces covered by balaclavas, the shouting starts up among the group of official witnesses.
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
Concerns are now rising and the questionable in the rush of carrying out the execution are being asked by American officials, who witnessed the intrigue and confusion that preceded the decision late on Friday to rush Mr. Hussein to the gallows. They had questioned the political wisdom of expediting the execution, in ways that required Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki to override constitutional and religious precepts that might have assured Mr. Hussein a more dignified passage to his end.
Yes, we really would like to know who wanted to rush the execution. This NYT article suggest the Iraqis.
...the Rush to Hang Hussein
The Americans' concerns seem certain to have been heightened by what happened at the hanging, as evidenced in video recordings made just before Mr. Hussein fell through the gallows trapdoor at 6:10 a.m. on Saturday. A new video that appeared on the Internet late Saturday, apparently made by a witness with a camera cellphone, underscored the unruly, mocking atmosphere in the execution chamber.
This continued, on the video, through the actual hanging itself, with a shout of "The tyrant has fallen! May God curse him!" as Mr. Hussein hung lifeless, his neck snapped back and his glassy eyes open.
The cacophony from those gathered before the gallows included a shout of "Go to hell!" as the former ruler stood with the noose around his neck in the final moments, and his riposte, barely audible above the bedlam, which included the words "gallows of shame." It continued despite appeals from an official-sounding voice, possibly Munir Haddad, the judge who presided at the hanging, saying, "Please no! The man is about to die."
The Shiites who predominated at the hanging began a refrain at one point of "Moktada! Moktada! Moktada!" - the name of a volatile cleric whose private militia has spawned death squads that have made an indiscriminate industry of killing Sunnis - appending it to a Muslim imprecation for blessings on the Prophet Muhammad. ?Moktada,? Mr. Hussein replied, smiling contemptuously. "Is this how real men behave?"
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
That this execution will create more trouble than it was suposed to quell is imminent. As it is, it shows lesser wisdom than should be expected even from an American administration.
[edit on 2-1-2007 by khunmoon]
Circumstances, as far from "justice carried out" or any other cliche clinging to the fair trail syndrome, prevailed in the execution chamber, we now know.
The string puppet al-Maliki tries to mend the damage by ordering an investigation into who brought in a video-phone. The unofficial footage now circling shows grave sectarian insults, which in the end only can sapur one thing: More Sectarian Violence in Iraq.
An Ugly Affair - BBC
Altogether, the execution as we now see it is shown to be an ugly, degrading business, which is more reminiscent of a public hanging in the 18th Century than a considered act of 21st Century official justice.
The key passage on the video-tape comes after the official version was cut off.
As Saddam stands there on the trapdoor, with the noose being tightened around his neck by one of the four executioners, their faces covered by balaclavas, the shouting starts up among the group of official witnesses.
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
Concerns are now rising and the questionable in the rush of carrying out the execution are being asked by American officials, who witnessed the intrigue and confusion that preceded the decision late on Friday to rush Mr. Hussein to the gallows. They had questioned the political wisdom of expediting the execution, in ways that required Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki to override constitutional and religious precepts that might have assured Mr. Hussein a more dignified passage to his end.
Yes, we really would like to know who wanted to rush the execution. This NYT article suggest the Iraqis.
...the Rush to Hang Hussein
The Americans' concerns seem certain to have been heightened by what happened at the hanging, as evidenced in video recordings made just before Mr. Hussein fell through the gallows trapdoor at 6:10 a.m. on Saturday. A new video that appeared on the Internet late Saturday, apparently made by a witness with a camera cellphone, underscored the unruly, mocking atmosphere in the execution chamber.
This continued, on the video, through the actual hanging itself, with a shout of "The tyrant has fallen! May God curse him!" as Mr. Hussein hung lifeless, his neck snapped back and his glassy eyes open.
The cacophony from those gathered before the gallows included a shout of "Go to hell!" as the former ruler stood with the noose around his neck in the final moments, and his riposte, barely audible above the bedlam, which included the words "gallows of shame." It continued despite appeals from an official-sounding voice, possibly Munir Haddad, the judge who presided at the hanging, saying, "Please no! The man is about to die."
The Shiites who predominated at the hanging began a refrain at one point of "Moktada! Moktada! Moktada!" - the name of a volatile cleric whose private militia has spawned death squads that have made an indiscriminate industry of killing Sunnis - appending it to a Muslim imprecation for blessings on the Prophet Muhammad. ?Moktada,? Mr. Hussein replied, smiling contemptuously. "Is this how real men behave?"
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
That this execution will create more trouble than it was suposed to quell is imminent. As it is, it shows lesser wisdom than should be expected even from an American administration.
[edit on 2-1-2007 by khunmoon]
Originally posted by khunmoon
To know what you're talking about and as requested in previous posts, you got to use the quote box in relevans to what you wanna blame, mock me about, whatever, at least in relevans to what you comment. In the above, what is the connection between your comment and what you quote? I don't see any of the two phrases put in quotationmarks by you anywhere in the quote!
Oh i see... so in that quote you don't mention your claim that "the disposal of a useful head that became too independent"... Isn't that a claim of yours?.... Where is the evidence to back this claim?....
Originally posted by khunmoon
Well, I'm not much into the disciplin of throwing around manure, neither horse nor bull, and as you obviously don't want to stay on topic, but now tries to derail it into a discussion of capitalism versus communism, I suggest we stop now. What has the following to do with Saddam?
Oh i see... so it must have been another khunmoon who said, and I quote...
The descent started with the Vietnam war, because the cause became ideological and questionable. But the American people still had its guts and common sense intact, safe and sound.
The Vietnam wars were about Communism, the U.S. was just involved in one of them....which you seem to think was only an "ideological cause" and nothing more....except that over 110 million people have died under such "ideological cause" known as Communism....
So, if you didn't want to have a response about Communism, why bring up Vietnam and your claim that it was just an "ideological and questionable cause"?...
Were there many faults made in the trials? of course there were, but i guess you would have thought that the international community would have cleared Saddam of what he did...
BTW...meanwhile you keep bashing on how the Iraqi judges performed the trials...Millions of Iraqis celebrate the death of the despot...and I also don't see you or anyone else who "sees this as an outrage" make the same claims when other nations such as China execute people for being too "democratic", or for "following a religion"....
The Iraqis judges did not conduct the trial in the same manner that "other international countries would have done" simply because Iraq, has it's own constitution and laws...and despite whatever else you want to claim Iraqis are voting now what and who they want in power...something they could never do under Saddam.
Saddam Hussein was convicted and hanged without fair trial, leading human rights groups said after his execution Saturday.
"The Iraqi high tribunal was not independent of political pressure coming from the Iraqi cabinet," Richard Dicker from Human Rights Watch told IPS Saturday. "In January this year the judge in Saddam's trial resigned in protest because he was publicly criticised by the prime minister for being too lenient in the way he was conducting proceedings."
That kind of political interference, he said, is "wholly inappropriate to the judicial process."
What Saddam had faced, he said, was "trial by ambush" that was marked by the failure of prosecution to provide defence attorneys evidence that was being introduced in court. Sometimes the evidence to be presented was given to defence lawyers at the last minute, and sometimes not at all, he said. That denied "an effective and meaningful defence."
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
Nothing was supposed to be meaningfull in this "trial" and the only effective thing was the gallow.
I dare say the "trial" they called Justice was a bigger crime than Saddams.
Saddam's defence lawyers had 30 days to file an appeal from the Nov. 5 verdict pronouncing the death sentence. "However, the trial judgment was only made available to them on November 22, leaving just two weeks to respond." The appeals chamber announced its confirmation of the verdict and the death sentence Dec. 26.
"It defies imagination that the appeals chamber could have thoroughly reviewed the 300-page judgment and the defence's written arguments in less than three weeks' time," said Dicker in a statement put out by Human Rights Watch. "The appeals process appears even more flawed than the trial."
Both Amnesty and Human Rights Watch had over many years documented human rights abuses under the regime of Saddam Hussein -- at a time when Western governments paid little heed to those reports, let alone act on them.
"These crimes include the killing of more than 100,000 Iraqi Kurds in Northern Iraq as part of the 1998 Anfal campaign," Human Rights Watch said in its statement. The execution of Saddam Hussein means the truth in that case might now never be known.
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
The same old and too wellknown phrase, among the many victims sacrificed in this War of Corporates - or any other war for that matter - the first one to go is the truth.
But what in my opinion makes it worse is, the principles of a fair trial was desecrated to a degree that any further adulating words about "democracy" must be hollow even to the most one-eyed patriots.
I only know one word for it: disgrace.
But a crime bigger than any that can be commited against humanity was done by this farce.
The rediculing of Justice. An omen of a time without any soon to come.
"At the time of his hanging, Saddam Hussein and others were on trial for genocide for the 1988 Anfal campaign," Human Rights Watch said. "The victims, including women, children and the elderly, were selected because they were Kurds who remained on their traditional lands in zones outside of areas controlled by Baghdad. Hussein's execution will therefore jeopardize the trial of these most serious crimes."
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
All the snippets are from the link above.
This is meticulous reported piece of journalism giving an account of behind the scene preparations and last minute negotiations going on in the 20
hours up to the hanging of Saddam Hussein.
I can only recommend anyone interested in this "carrying out of justice" and the details around his execution, to take the trouble to sign up with NYTimes, so you can read it. It's free and takes about 20 secs.
Seems to be Condaleeza who pushed the final go-ahead. There's a woman behind every man, they say - also his death.
Before Hanging, a Push for Revenge and a Push Back From the U.S
Mr. Rubaie, the security adviser, said that when Mr. Hussein stepped into the execution block, an ill-lighted concrete structure behind the main prison building where thousands of hangings took place under Mr. Hussein, he seemed composed.
“He made some joking remarks,” he said. “He said to me, ‘Don’t be afraid,’ as if I was going to be hanged. I didn’t reply, but one of the guards shouted, ‘You did bad things to Iraq.’ And he said, ‘I made this backward country into an advanced and prosperous nation.’ ”
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
Exactly what he did, not a very common thing for tyrants to do. The saddest thing about it all, they'll will not only be deprived their security for decades to come, but certainly also their prosperity.
What the world will remember about this farce of justice, is the dignity with which Saddam faced his death.
One can wonder, when others have to pay for their crimes, if they will show the same.
I can only recommend anyone interested in this "carrying out of justice" and the details around his execution, to take the trouble to sign up with NYTimes, so you can read it. It's free and takes about 20 secs.
Seems to be Condaleeza who pushed the final go-ahead. There's a woman behind every man, they say - also his death.
Before Hanging, a Push for Revenge and a Push Back From the U.S
Mr. Rubaie, the security adviser, said that when Mr. Hussein stepped into the execution block, an ill-lighted concrete structure behind the main prison building where thousands of hangings took place under Mr. Hussein, he seemed composed.
“He made some joking remarks,” he said. “He said to me, ‘Don’t be afraid,’ as if I was going to be hanged. I didn’t reply, but one of the guards shouted, ‘You did bad things to Iraq.’ And he said, ‘I made this backward country into an advanced and prosperous nation.’ ”
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
Exactly what he did, not a very common thing for tyrants to do. The saddest thing about it all, they'll will not only be deprived their security for decades to come, but certainly also their prosperity.
What the world will remember about this farce of justice, is the dignity with which Saddam faced his death.
One can wonder, when others have to pay for their crimes, if they will show the same.
A few comments from press and observers... on the plausible and totally corrupt in presuming a hanged man guilty in a case he never could be tried.
Leading article: An execution that will do nothing to quell the violence on Iraq's streets
The trial was a travesty of justice. To hang Saddam now is also to leave his second trial unfinished
... He stood trial, by turns insisting belligerently on his right to a proper defence and refusing to recognise the authority of the court. Would that those who had suffered from his rule had been dignified with a fraction of the respect that he was accorded by the court.
... Saddam was a creature of the United States. He was armed and encouraged by Washington in earlier times, in an effort to balance the regional power of Iran. What balance there might have been is now shattered. Iran is in the ascendant. Iraq itself is in chaos and no exercise in democracy has been able to override its divisions. The country has an elected president, prime minister and parliament, but these institutions lack the authority to wield power effectively.
...
It is understandable that Iraqis preferred to try Saddam themselves rather than deliver him to the International Criminal Court. This would have been the preferable course. As it was, the trial was a travesty of justice.To hang Saddam now is also to leave his second trial, arguably the more important one, unfinished. The Kurds will not now have the satisfaction of seeing the murderer of their kinsmen judged for that heinous crime.
*comment.independent.co.uk
___
* *
Court hears tape of Saddam plotting to gas the Kurds
With the chair of the hanged former Iraqi president empty in the dock, the prosecution played a tape in which Saddam allegedly discusses using chemical weapons on Kurds.
"I will strike them with chemical weapons and kill them all," a voice said to be Mr Majid is heard saying. "Who is going to say anything? The international community? A curse on the international community!"
Another voice, said to be Saddam's, says, "Yes, it's effective, especially on those who don't wear a mask immediately, as we understand." A third voice, from the back, asks: "Sir, does it exterminate thousands?" "Saddam" responds: "Yes, it exterminates thousands and forces them not to eat or drink and they will have to evacuate their homes without taking anything with them."
Yesterday's proceedings began with the judge officially dismissing all charges against the dead president, including genocide, in relation to the Anfal campaign against the Kurds in which more than 100,000 people were killed.
... All seven defendants in the Anfal case, including Saddam, had pleaded not guilty to charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity.
*news.independent.co.uk
___
* *
Saddam Hussein’s rushed execution looks even more suspicious now that the trial of his co-defendants has resumed with prosecutors playing an incriminating tape recording of the dead Iraqi dictator discussing chemical weapons – but now without any possibility of him fingering U.S. officials and others who may have helped him get the poisons.
President George W. Bush and his supporters are sure to cite the tape recording as further evidence of Hussein’s guilt and thus vindication of Bush’s decision to press ahead with Hussein’s controversial hanging on Dec. 30.
But the troubling reality – virtually ignored in the major U.S. news media – is that Bush also silenced a particularly dangerous witness who could have implicated prominent U.S. officials from both his father’s and his own administrations.
The hasty execution prevented the Iraqi judges from turning to Hussein after the tape was played on Jan. 8 to question him about its authenticity and its context. Another obvious follow-up would have been how had Hussein obtained the dangerous chemicals that he allegedly deployed to kill tens of thousands of Iraqi Kurds.
In that sense, Hussein’s silence was golden for the international arms dealers who supplied his regime and for government officials who facilitated the shipments.
*www.consortiumnews.com
___
* *
The Iraqi High Tribunal has dropped all charges against Saddam Hussein, who was hanged on 30 December, as the genocide trial of six co-defendants resumed.
They are charged with crimes against humanity over a campaign against Kurds in the 1980s that left 100,000 dead.
Saddam Hussein was hanged after an earlier trial over the killing of 148 Shia Muslims in the town of Dujail.
Many Kurds were disappointed that he was executed before facing justice for his role in the Anfal campaign.
*news.bbc.co.uk
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
Yes, you wait'n see, Shiite, Sunni whomever gets that upper hand, will turn to the kurds next.
Saddam did it unpunished... you can't punish the dead...
... so why shouldn't others try away with genocide.
[edit on 10-1-2007 by khunmoon]
Leading article: An execution that will do nothing to quell the violence on Iraq's streets
The trial was a travesty of justice. To hang Saddam now is also to leave his second trial unfinished
... He stood trial, by turns insisting belligerently on his right to a proper defence and refusing to recognise the authority of the court. Would that those who had suffered from his rule had been dignified with a fraction of the respect that he was accorded by the court.
... Saddam was a creature of the United States. He was armed and encouraged by Washington in earlier times, in an effort to balance the regional power of Iran. What balance there might have been is now shattered. Iran is in the ascendant. Iraq itself is in chaos and no exercise in democracy has been able to override its divisions. The country has an elected president, prime minister and parliament, but these institutions lack the authority to wield power effectively.
...
It is understandable that Iraqis preferred to try Saddam themselves rather than deliver him to the International Criminal Court. This would have been the preferable course. As it was, the trial was a travesty of justice.To hang Saddam now is also to leave his second trial, arguably the more important one, unfinished. The Kurds will not now have the satisfaction of seeing the murderer of their kinsmen judged for that heinous crime.
*comment.independent.co.uk
___
* *
Court hears tape of Saddam plotting to gas the Kurds
With the chair of the hanged former Iraqi president empty in the dock, the prosecution played a tape in which Saddam allegedly discusses using chemical weapons on Kurds.
"I will strike them with chemical weapons and kill them all," a voice said to be Mr Majid is heard saying. "Who is going to say anything? The international community? A curse on the international community!"
Another voice, said to be Saddam's, says, "Yes, it's effective, especially on those who don't wear a mask immediately, as we understand." A third voice, from the back, asks: "Sir, does it exterminate thousands?" "Saddam" responds: "Yes, it exterminates thousands and forces them not to eat or drink and they will have to evacuate their homes without taking anything with them."
Yesterday's proceedings began with the judge officially dismissing all charges against the dead president, including genocide, in relation to the Anfal campaign against the Kurds in which more than 100,000 people were killed.
... All seven defendants in the Anfal case, including Saddam, had pleaded not guilty to charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity.
*news.independent.co.uk
___
* *
Saddam Hussein’s rushed execution looks even more suspicious now that the trial of his co-defendants has resumed with prosecutors playing an incriminating tape recording of the dead Iraqi dictator discussing chemical weapons – but now without any possibility of him fingering U.S. officials and others who may have helped him get the poisons.
President George W. Bush and his supporters are sure to cite the tape recording as further evidence of Hussein’s guilt and thus vindication of Bush’s decision to press ahead with Hussein’s controversial hanging on Dec. 30.
But the troubling reality – virtually ignored in the major U.S. news media – is that Bush also silenced a particularly dangerous witness who could have implicated prominent U.S. officials from both his father’s and his own administrations.
The hasty execution prevented the Iraqi judges from turning to Hussein after the tape was played on Jan. 8 to question him about its authenticity and its context. Another obvious follow-up would have been how had Hussein obtained the dangerous chemicals that he allegedly deployed to kill tens of thousands of Iraqi Kurds.
In that sense, Hussein’s silence was golden for the international arms dealers who supplied his regime and for government officials who facilitated the shipments.
*www.consortiumnews.com
___
* *
The Iraqi High Tribunal has dropped all charges against Saddam Hussein, who was hanged on 30 December, as the genocide trial of six co-defendants resumed.
They are charged with crimes against humanity over a campaign against Kurds in the 1980s that left 100,000 dead.
Saddam Hussein was hanged after an earlier trial over the killing of 148 Shia Muslims in the town of Dujail.
Many Kurds were disappointed that he was executed before facing justice for his role in the Anfal campaign.
*news.bbc.co.uk
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
Yes, you wait'n see, Shiite, Sunni whomever gets that upper hand, will turn to the kurds next.
Saddam did it unpunished... you can't punish the dead...
... so why shouldn't others try away with genocide.
[edit on 10-1-2007 by khunmoon]
I hope that everyone out to hang Saddam, takes into account / What it is to be a Leader among the hardships of the working Devil. I have seen the
heart of man and I know that in many cases, you can dress them up, but their bad works hiding behind their beauty, will only disappoint you.
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