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How did God come into existence?

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posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 12:42 PM
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Originally posted by NorEaster
reply to post by wayaboveitall
 


Consciousness is a fully realized and sophisticated development. Isn't there a process of achieving that state of development, or is it all just magic (or even worse, simply unknowable).


"Let it be understood that in The Great Work so has God foresight and knowledge of all things, lest you forget that all things are part of the same as created in that moment. So did The All come to pass as a realised form and make at the Horizon Æternitatis so that all things may be as now. In that was retained the knowledge and being of everything ante hoc so that all actions and endeavours are at the behest of what they will become rather than as a result of what they have been or indeed, are. So may God become as all things that have not been, yet are known and ordained by eventuality so that by being so they become. Yet, as may be a paradox to man, we observe to make our decisions with free will such as the worms in the soil and the birds in the air without concern or worry for all is as intended for the passage is but the dissection of summarius to which all things are bound in object and by rote from beginning to end which are the same in absolute."

What is the chief study of the Philosopher?
It is the investigations of the operations of Nature.

What may we learn from the operations of Nature?
We may understand that it is the beginning and end of all things.

What is the end of Nature?
God, Who is also the Beginning.




posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 07:01 PM
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reply to post by NorEaster
 


What you have written is subjective, in that to what[ (Not who) we/you, define god as actually being...

The word “god” is such an obscure and loose word, that everyone has their own idea, what a god should be, or not be, according to their own needs reflected by their own fears and superstitions.

As for "the chicken and egg" situation, this is based on the idea that TIME has always existed.

As I wrote previously; Time can be understood as a bit like the Contents of a CD being played through a "CD Player".
The Data is contained Statically on the Disc including; the Beginning, In-between and the End.
It is only when it is set in motion the illusion of Time is experienced.

Time is only a "measurement of the rate of change".

To experience this illusion, requires the Comparing of 2 Dynamic situations, without considering the 3rd part of the equation.

May I suggest you are looking at the wrong end…
Cause and Effect....

You are considering the Effect, but it is Not so easy to discover the Cause.

The Word Consciousness is also a Very, Very Loose word, and most can only understand Consciousness as being of the Brain, after the understanding of human logic...

Well it is very simple to understand…

a. Is any part of your body i.e. a hand Aware of You or its Environment?

b. Or is it your Consciousness that is Aware of your hand and environment?

There isn’t a single physical part of our body, that is remotely Aware of our Consciousness or LIFE...

Yet some of us, are Aware of the existence of the body and what we are experiencing and its Environment.

What you are considering, is the interpreted result only, via the brain and Not what causes this phenomena we call the Universe, as though the material aspect is all that exists ?

Its a bit like watching and hearing something on TV.
What you experience on the TV, is totally different than what produces it, i.e. the Workings of the TV etc.

[edit on 24-4-2010 by The Matrix Traveller]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 07:08 PM
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"God" came into existence by way of mans IMAGINATION. Thats the TRUTH, BOTTOM LINE, PERIOD.

But for some reason, those that CLAIM there is a "God" all say that this "God" communicates with them. BUT yet, even though they have the power to talk with this "God" they never seem to be able to answer any of the mysteries about the bible or who is the REAL God of the MANY MANY in existence. So this "God" along with ALL of his IMAGINARY friends are from mans imagination, and some folks are under the delusion that they talk to them. What a bunch of FRUIT-LOOPS that exist in the world!



[edit on 24-4-2010 by Captain_Sense]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 08:10 PM
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This is definitely an interesting topic. I agree with some of the other posts, our minds are not built to comprehend such greatness and complexities. I read one time on ATS, a questiong by one of the members, which stated, "if religion was real, and God was a real entity, why didn't he just give us the whole truth in the bible?" That is not verbatim, but thats the basis of his question...I didn't respond, but I pondered that question for a moment, and I came up with this....That would be like you or I trying to explain to an ant, philosphy, alegebra, and history of the world. He just won't get it. That ant could not comprehend, simply because he do not understand our language. Even if you take the ant out of the equation and replace him with a 5 year old english speaking child, he still would not understand these subjects even if you taught him in English....because he has to go through a process of learning...first starting with ABC's, addittion and so on...In order to fully understand God, and or the universe, you would have to have an infinite mind...understanding the past completely, present completely, and be able to see the future completely...then you might be able to have a quick conversation with God or even understand his plan, and his decisions....and also the ramifications of those decisions.

I read a short quote somewhere almost a year ago that boggled my mind...this gentlemen stated that if anyone were to discover the truth about the existence of our universe and God, the whole world would come to an end at that very moment!

Crazy to think of it that way....

[edit on 24-4-2010 by Historymajor]



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 12:25 AM
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It is my personal interpretation, that the Earth and Universe is Not for the benefit of the human species, nor any other species, seeing that they are the observed and Not the observer...

So what is it that is Observing this Universe ???

We know there is a part of us, that is observing, which I can only suggest is our Awareness, Conscious state, or LIFE whatever, as our body doesn't even know it exists.

Does the Hand or the foot or the Brain, know it exists?

Only our Consciousness knows !

Therefore I would suggest, the Universe has a purpose that is totally different than most humans can imagine.

It has nothing to do with right and wrong, laid down by human understanding, nor to do with any interpretation of a god etc. or to do with evolution or the advancement of the Species.

But rather it is to do with what is Creating this experience.

All species live only for a brief moment in time, only to come to naught, that is if we look at the physical aspect only...

So why such a brief time and then disintegrate ???

I can say though, through experience, back in 1973, I experienced "so called" death, identified by medical staff.
My body knew nothing at all, during the period of time I was supposedly meant to have been dead.
(Longer than 30 minutes).

However I was Aware of being, that is Consciousness, Not involving the brain.
This did Not consist of anything human, but something else, Not explained by science or religion.

No, it wasn't just a generous dose of '___' donated by the Pineal gland, or neurons firing of in my brain.

This involve a totally different world, nothing that can be described in human terms, yet to me I was more alive then, during these +30 minutes that I was pronounced as brain dead, than I am now or for that matter before this experience.

During the +30 minutes I knew nothing of this Little Universe, Earth or the Species I had been experiencing, Not even thought was present, in the human cense of thought.

I have learnt that the Conscious state, does Not end, (Perhaps this is what people fear ?) and it is only the "Decoding System" or Brain that ceases to function.

Or should I say it is like closing a book, or exiting a movie, and returning to the real world, just to choose another book or movie, then being dumped back into the movie I was first experiencing, before the moment of death.

So I can’t just ignore this experience, and it forces me to look at the Universe in a totally different way, than the human understanding I was brought up to believe.

I do believe there is a purpose, but this has nothing at all, to with a human god of any description of a god.
But in saying this I know no other name or title I can give it other than "God", and our Conscious state is Part of what I refer to as God.

If there was a Word in the English language to describe it correctly, I would but as there isn't, I will use the Word God. (Not the god many describe today.)

But the understanding that I now have, is Not like what is preached in any church of the human species.

I saw No hell, but only what I refer to as the soul, which is just a part of a huge Geometric Processing System…
The Soul did Not have Human form, nor did it behave in a human way or think as a human does.

This World we look at is to do with Creating and nothing else.

All of us Create….

But what are We ???

I am Not referring to the Human Primate we experience, but that part that is observing, I call LIFE or Consciousness, Awareness or whatever we like to call it.

I am lead to understand, that We (Consciousness) has always been Outside the concepts of Time and space. And what is going on through this experience is changing another part of us unrelated to this Little Universe.

I don’t believe this Conscious State has come from anything. To say it has come from something, implies that Time has always existed.

But the definition of Time is “The measurement of the Rate of change taking place in anything” which is a human concept.

To be Aware of Time involves comparing 2 things.

As I have pointed out already likening Time to a CD and CD Player.

So the Data on the CD can be seen as Static or Dynamic depending on the method of interpretation of the CD.

So our Consciousness can be observed as being both of Static Content, or Dynamic when played in a Sequential fashion.

[edit on 25-4-2010 by The Matrix Traveller]



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 05:19 AM
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reply to post by The Matrix Traveller
 



Some excellent points and observations 'Matrix Traveller', which are coherent with Emanationist Philosophy. This framework of thought has been with us a very long time and yet, in many ways, attracts little attention.

It always appears to me that Emanationism offers a nexus between science and spiritual thinking (neglecting the perversion caused by religious orthodoxy) and I would think that the world would have been a better place had this though process gained and maintained supremacy. I guess that the human race is still at the transitional stage where our naive acceptance of physical phenonema contrasts with our wish to control our environment.

Once we get beyond this stage (assuming that we do!) then I believe that we will move back to a more considered approach to spirituality and the concept of The All and our role within the physical manifestation we regard as the universe.



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 06:09 AM
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If anyone wants to progress beyond the level of playing with words to argue any position about the nature of God, then visit:
smphillips.8m.com...
and take the time to study actual, mathematical evidence for the existence of God and the mathematical nature of the universal paradigm that is embodied in the sacred geometries of religions. This is amazing new research - rigorous and non-speculative.



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 07:47 AM
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People can't believe that the universe just is so they have to invent an even more complex entity that came about to create it. It doesn't answer anything and only creates a greater philosophical problem, where did god come from?



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 09:04 AM
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reply to post by DarkSide
 


DarkSide, you're missing the point of this thread... the debate over the origin of the universe is still open and people here are simply trying to hypothesise on that origin without recourse to religion per se.

The concept of "God" does not necessarily attract the humanistic attributes associated with a deity, however, this does not detract from the possibility that a form of sentience preceded the universe as we know it or that it still pervades the natural world.

It is much easier to ignore this thread than to ignore the possibility that a cohesive force permeates the fabric of the universe and that force may well be the remnant of the absolute beginning of the universe - as close to a "God" that man can conceivably get without satirising such an entity as "human".





[edit on 25-4-2010 by SugarCube]



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 09:10 AM
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God created himself. The first perfect being who there was none before him or ever will be.



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 11:54 PM
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Originally posted by Moonman1111
God created himself. The first perfect being who there was none before him or ever will be.



Not Doubting you....

Is God a being ???

If so what sort of a Being is He ???

In other words what is your definition regarding the Word "Being" ???

What is God ???

I don't mean what has God Done.... but what actually is your definition of what God is ???

And Why do you refer to God as Him??? as in the Word Himself (male)

How did God Create Himself ???

Again I am Not questioning whether or Not God Created Himself....

Everyone has a different Idea of what God is or Isn't and usually only describe
what God has Done but No One defines God's Components, as described in....

Chapter 1 of The Gospel According to St. John. found in any bible.

In this Book it gives the 2 Components of The Christian God as....

1/. The WORD.
2/. The LIFE of God which is the LIGHT of MAN

In Greek.. ΦΟΣ, ΦΟΩΣ, ΦΑΣ, ΦΑΟΣ, ΦΑΣ, ΦΑΟΣ, or ΦΑΩ , as in daylight or Sun Light of MAN. (Not A'DAM....

By Definition.... a WORD is made up from a String of Letters and a String of Words produces Sentences...
ie Communication by Written Word...

The Greek Translation for "Word" Is “Logos” which is often referred to in the Ancient Writings as the "Cross of LIGHT"...
and Not that Wooden Cross.

From The Acts of John 87-105 Quote;


This Cross of Light is sometimes Called LOGOS by Me (J.C.) for your sakes,
sometimes MIND, sometimes JESUS, sometimes CHRIST, sometimes A DOOR,
sometimes A WAY, sometimes BREAD, sometimes SEED, sometimes RESURRECTION,
sometimes SON, sometimes FATHER, sometimes SPIRIT, sometimes LIFE,
sometimes TRUTH, sometimes FAITH, sometimes GRACE; and so it is called for men’s sake.

But what It Truly is, as Known in Itself and spoken to us, is this:

It is The Distinction of All Things, and The Harmony of Wisdom, being Wisdom In Harmony.

But there are Places on the right and on the left,
Powers, Authorities, Principalities and Demonds, Activities,
Threatenings, Passions, Devils, Satan and The Inferior Root
from which the Nature of Transient things Proceeded.

99.
This Cross then is that which has united ALL things by The WORD
and which has separated off what is Transitory and Inferior,
which has also Compacted ALL things into ONE.

But this is NOT that WOODEN CROSS which you shall see when you go down from here;

nor am I the man who is on the Cross, I whom now you do not see but only hear My Voice.


So does this help with the Definition of the Word "God" ???
That is in the Christian meaning of the Word God.

Note; Each denomination that have come out of or from the early Roman church has their own interpretation though.

[edit on 26-4-2010 by The Matrix Traveller]



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 06:33 AM
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reply to post by SugarCube
 


I don't quote other people, but I do know this. If something exists in direct context with something else, then the two somethings share physical existence to the extent that there is a common structural basis that both spring from. This is required by raw logic, and without raw logic, structure is impossible to achieve. Without structure, organization is impossible, and without organization, the act of thinking about any of this is impossible.

That means that structure - as well as everything that is directly implied as a result of structure - exists, whether you agree with that statement or not.

Now, how that affects a fully-realized intellect, and the inherent sophistication of organized structure required to enable that intellect to exist, should be obvious, but if it's not, then let me simply state that such mind-numbing structure can't possibly spring from a void intact, and it can't just BE without having gathered in organization at some point in progressive development from a much simpler, more primitive level of existential expression. And the reason it can't, is because we, as fellow beings within the same physical environment - since logic demands that there can be no physical interaction between "things" that do not share the same physical environment - are structured in a manner that requires progressive development (as proven by modern science and biology).

You can quote anyone you like, but the truth remains the truth, and no dead philosopher or Voodoo medicine man can alter the truth with a clever catch-phrase.

By the way, I do believe in a Creator Being, and one that brought this all into existence for a specific purpose, but I also believe that it's time that the 2,000+ yr old misunderstanding of what we are and what this is was retired for a more rational explanation.

Yes, God exists. That said, too many millions are being denied a full understanding of God as a result of billions of people refusing to let go of a seriously worn out narrative that insists on beliefs that clash with what most of the modern world knows to be simple facts of natural science. We owe it to our Creator to stop being lazy about seeking Him out. It's time to be responsible about our relationship with God, and allow the modern human a shot at believing through discoevry and not through intellectual denial.

[edit on 26-4-2010 by NorEaster]



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 06:57 AM
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God didn’t and has never created anything.
The universe is merely the huge insides of God just as we have inside phenomena going on inside, us so does God— and that is the universe.

It is true that “God” has no beginning or ending, and it is also true that everything in being is God and or an aspect of God.
In other words ultimately there is nothing but God.

It becomes complicated [our own confusion and consciousness now] because we are in development. That development has an end point and that end can be metaphorically called God, which is the intention of our developmental cycle.

When we complete our development then we have fulfilled the conceptual aspect of God [metaphor-end of development] then we will become—GOD!


[edit on 26-4-2010 by inforeal]



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 07:20 AM
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reply to post by The Matrix Traveller
 


Again, the issue is "shared environment" and the requirement of logic in order for organized structure to exist. Esoteric notions do not anchor physical structure, and if we know anything at all, we know that physical structure demands a stability that only raw logic can provide. What is necessary to provide that logic is a strict foundational adherence to that logic, and that adherence must be absolute within the environment that depends on the stability that logic imposes. It's like any system of order. Order can't provide stability unless it is adhered to, and it is through the agreement of the whole that the accepted order is adhered to, if order is to provide stability.

We can look to our own structure to learn a lot about the underlying super-structure that provides stability, since all structure is inherently redundant. If "God" exists in a manner that allows for intercession, then this God must share the same foundational super-structure as we do. If not, then intercession is impossible, since environment is determined by structural foundation (regardless of how that structure manifests).

Why people refuse to demand the same structural requirements to exist beyond their 5 senses is a mystery to me. It's like they think we live in a bubble of some kind where the laws of existence apply only to us.



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 07:23 AM
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Originally posted by inforeal

It becomes complicated [our own confusion and consciousness now] because we are in development. That development has an end point and that end can be metaphorically called God, which is the intention of our developmental cycle.

When we complete our development then we have fulfilled the conceptual aspect of God [metaphor-end of development] then we will become—GOD!


Please elaborate on this "development" we're experiencing. Is it physical or is it experiential? I have a reason for asking.



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 07:46 AM
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God in your question, would that be the one or the thing thats supposed to have created our reality?(Zeitgeist) has a great video explaining our solarsystem and what sigificant role the sun had in our religions.
Many religions seem to float together and to be the same with just another set of eyes reading it.
There might be infinit dimesions and living in a 3D world makes it almost impossible to interpet a 4D + world.

I think if you were in a 5th dimension you would probably be able to reach "inside" or travel in a 3D world without any time passing and also to be at multiple areas simultaniusly. The 5th dimiensions time might be effected though. If there is a maximum of dimensions then this is where the creator would be.

Or did this sound like a bunch of rubbish? It's my own thoughts ^^



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 07:55 AM
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Originally posted by Vesica
God in your question, would that be the one or the thing thats supposed to have created our reality?(Zeitgeist) has a great video explaining our solarsystem and what sigificant role the sun had in our religions.
Many religions seem to float together and to be the same with just another set of eyes reading it.
There might be infinit dimesions and living in a 3D world makes it almost impossible to interpet a 4D + world.

I think if you were in a 5th dimension you would probably be able to reach "inside" or travel in a 3D world without any time passing and also to be at multiple areas simultaniusly. The 5th dimiensions time might be effected though. If there is a maximum of dimensions then this is where the creator would be.

Or did this sound like a bunch of rubbish? It's my own thoughts ^^


Please define "dimension" so that it's not simply a convenient catch-word representing a state of being that can't be explained. What would a 5th dimension consist of? What would the physical properties be, and how would they relate to the properties of our 3rd dimensional super-structure?



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 08:01 AM
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reply to post by NorEaster
 


Hi NorEaster, with respect to your post (which is very well put together I have to say), I'm not sure where there is a disagreement between your stated concept of 'structure' and what has previously been quoted (which isn't Voodoo I assure you ;-P).

Maybe this is because I missed out other passages, however, the structures you speak of are indicated as being created at the point that a conversion from the wholly "spiritual" nature of the Godhead, i.e. The All, manifests as physical matter; the singularity which is a 'chaotic' ensemble of all physical matter which then diversifies to the five elemental attributes as referenced in alchemical works.

The physical nature of the universe is not in question per se and in fact does not diverge from many modern 'big bang' science theories. It is the conversion of The All to a different form that allows physical structures to then combine and lead to more complex constructs.

This of course leads to a certain conundrum, since The All is insinuated to be infinite, how does it convert to a finite physical universe, metaphorically, a quart into a pint pot? This is where the concept of time comes into play since it acts a method of differentiating the infinity of all possible combinations and eventualities to discrete physical instances. However, the implication of this is that all possible eventualities have already been ordained.

This obviously leads to some discrepancies with common religious orthodoxy (ignoring the obvious creationist/emanationist clash) since intercession is no longer a relevance to the concept of "God". Why intervene when you already know what is going to happen?

I hope that this clarifies some points from a 'structural' perspective.



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 08:24 AM
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reply to post by SugarCube
 


Structure is still required for organization. Even in the realm of dynamic intellect (spirit, for the traditionalists), structure is key to distinction of authorship and the capacity for association and existential massing of such intellect. Without structure, cohesive expression would be impossible, so let's not pretend that how a being is physically anchored (your use of the term physical is actually best described as corporeal) impacts its requirement for foundational structure.

Information, even the most sophisticated of dynamic intellect, requires structure, and with that requirement, it's capacity for epitome expression is dependent upon a robust level of organized development. This development can't simply pop into existence as a whole and fully defined form. It requires some form of progressive advancement - regardless of how long or short that development process is relative to our own notion of causation-centric time. The net impact is that a Deity Entity can't always have existed, devoid of an existential genesis, and it doesn't matter how you scramble the formulas. Reality isn't a court of law. The best argument doesn't reset the standards.

Try spending some time with the riddle of how such a Deity might have come into physical existence (physical NOT meaning corporeal, for the sake of this adventure). The process is defineable, and I know that it is because I've defined it. Use only logic, the original axiom of "As Above, So Below" and resist the temptation to declare anything unknowable. And of traditional theology, assume that what you are seeking has been uncovered - to varying degrees - by others throughout human history.

Have fun.



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 09:43 AM
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reply to post by NorEaster
 


Hi NorEaster, "he tasks me, he tasks me" ;-)

Within your first paragraph you give a ready clue as to the purpose of "emanation", in that "Without structure, cohesive expression would be impossible"

In terms of corporeal presence, and so definable by physical dimensions, (i.e. tangible) this represents only the emanation and not the ante hoc state of being which I essentially quoted as entirely intangible and undefinable.

The singularity is defined as a 'corporeal' material and by insinuation has a multitude of different attributes to it, all co-existent within a single 'structural' framework that supports the application comparative attributes (i.e. as in the 5 elements by division and notional multiplication, i.e. dividing by 2 resulting in double the number of entities).

ante hoc must be an unknowable state, but the axiom of "as above so below" represents a reflection of the process of emanation as applied to the corporeal nature of the universe as observed almost three hundred years ago and indeed, prior to that.

"By divine manipulation of division was birth given to multiplication and in this do we see the very working of the world about us for does man not multiply by division?"

I do not believe that there is a question over whether this state of being (i.e. post hoc) may exist since many scientific theories support the occurrence of a 'big bang' initiation of the physical universe (I say 'physical' rather than 'corporeal' since there are elementary particles with zero mass).

In terms of whether a Deity Entity has 'always' existed, a prerequisite for this assessment would be the constant presence of 'time' in order to sustain. Since time may be regarded as an associated attribute of dimensional physics, without it we could conceive that the presence of the The All may exist without age and without beginning or end, or even a spatial existence (as is implied by the original quoted text).

You can only apply the consistent and consequential logic of progressive advancement to an environmental state where time is applicable, otherwise, all events occur simultaneously within a non-dimensional existence or at least a non-coherent fusion of all states that must always occur.



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