Jehovah's witnesses and freemasons?, page 3

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reply posted on 9-2-2009 @ 10:50 PM by AllTiedTogether

No link you say...

link

NO LINK?
link

NO LINK?
link

NO LINK?
link

NO LINK? Here's one from David Icke
link

NO LINK?
link

NO LINK?
link

Surely some of the evidence in pictures are not hoaxed and should suffice in saying there is a link. As was the intent of the OP. I'm sure much of the evidence is credible and proven within the links. I don't believe everything within that whole website to be deemed 100% authentically verified proven beyond a reasonable doubt information before I can believe there is reason to believe a link between the two organizations.

Would you like some more links of sites that have evidence? You the reader should be able to differentiate between the truth and lies. But numerous posts continue to say that you should not read such trash. Everyone in the world is against the mason....

They say prostitution is the oldest profession, I think it's freemasonry. Around for two million years throughout our civilization under different names. The link in my signature block provides a good start to understanding how history actually works.

Rgds

reply posted on 10-2-2009 @ 12:54 AM by Xcouncil=wisdom

I am not qualified to argue this, but I will give my OPINION
1st, obviously Alltiedtogether is anti mason, that's fine by me...
The Jehovah's Witnesses of today are not connected with Free Mason's.
I checked out the links previously posted, and I won't lie, I didn't read every bit of all of them, but most aren't anything I hadn't come across before. It is completely possible that Charles Russell was a Mason. I would say then that supports the idea he was an intelligent man.
I think the mason's on the majority are insightful. That's an opinion. I don't actually know if they are a religion or a political organization, or began as a bunch of guys with a particular skill that started the first union.
I don't know any mason's, I only know the the conspiracy theories I hear about when it comes to mason's. But I do know witnesses.
Here is some info...Russell died in 1897, at the time he was looking for the truth...as it was obvious to him that christendom had lost its way. It was 34 years later that the organization that formed from his search for the truth took the name Jehovah's Witnesses(1931). In the almost 8 decades since then that organization has continued to refine it ideals and teachings...like the cross, christmas and other pagan holidays...things like puting a date on the time of the coming of the last days...even smoking tobacco(my ol man was hasn't been a member since 1974 due to his addiction).
So, no. Today the witnesses are not associated with mason's, but in the past their paths may have crossed. But, the mason's have been around for a long time, that is without doubt, so, I say...big deal. I do know of times witnesses have rented masonic lodges for meetings and weddings, but I don't think that links them as diabolical satanic counterparts seeking to destroy mankind.(please, recognize that as sarcasm and don't reply to that comment, its not worthy of discussion)

I know that most on this site demand more definitave and backed up insight, but, that's what I got, so there ya go.

love

reply posted on 10-2-2009 @ 01:16 AM by AllTiedTogether

reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom

Really, who do you think is worse, me for being ANTI-mason as you put it or you being ANTI-ANTI-mason against me because I question a secret organization of whom most of the worlds leading killers have been a part. for providing links that show that most of the world in your eyes is making all the stuff up about masons so they can discredit them.

Am I making this stuff up? Are you saying that all these people are not trust worthy in the least and cannot be trusted? Wow! you masons and defenders of masons are quite the judge of right and wrong. Must be part of that holier than thou attitude where they can make statements like

A mason...
... it would seem to me that a Mason can technically be more trusted than those who have not made a similar vow.
...Since a Mason is sworn to Truth, there exists a deeper bond between Masons and truth than exists between those who have not taken such a vow.

Please prove to me that those links I provided are not providing valid data proving the link between JW and masons. Let me know and I can provide another 50 or so links that you call lies also, should make the mason backers look rather silly to the sensible.

IMO
Rgds

[edit on 10-2-2009 by AllTiedTogether]

reply posted on 10-2-2009 @ 01:37 AM by Xcouncil=wisdom

Wow!

For the record, I am not pro mason...nor anti. I have no facts on them.
I was promoting the distinction of the two.
Uh, please discriminate?

I am new here, I cannot get involved in endless cyclicle debate...after re-reading the presented info the only item I could retract is I might be wrong on Russells date of death. Other than that, my OPINION is that of the two societies, they MAY have been linked over a hundred years ago, and are now seperate.

To the OP, that's how I stand

Love to my brothers

reply posted on 10-2-2009 @ 05:32 AM by miriam0566

Originally posted by Xcouncil=wisdom
Neat topic.
I dis-associated myself 12 years ago from the witnesses, not because I had differences in belief but because I wanted to live a guilt free life of drugs and sex. Well, since then I have realized that that led no-where.
Before I began working my way back into the organization (as for me I see them as having the most accurate version of the christian teaching ,personal veiw, not starting a fight!!!!!!) I did a bunch of internet searching about anti-witness info.
I too had come across the Russel was a mason story, and that mason's, like the witnesses, oppose the teaching of the cross? (witness's of course recognize the cross as a pre-christian idol adopted to bring in other religions when Rome made it the state religion, and that most executions of that time were done upon pikes, stakes/trees)

So, is that true about the mason's? Do they not pay homage the cross?

I'm curious

the thing thats so silly about the whole masonic symbol reference debate is that its inconsequential.

even the JWS did at one time accepted the cross (i think its seen on the watchtower up to a certain year) but then they reasoned that they shouldnt so they stopped.

they celebrated christmas for many years, (i think there was a group portrait of ¨bethel family¨ taken during christmas. they did research, they stopped.

if there were any mason references, they have been pulled out, but im not convinced that the images anti-JWs are showing as evidence are exclusively masonic.

even russell himself denied being a mason.

reply posted on 10-2-2009 @ 07:16 AM by miriam0566

Originally posted by AllTiedTogether
link

the cross through the crown is a common christian symbol. yes it was used by the knights templar but was by not means exclusive to them.

en.wikipedia.org...

link

again, this one assumes that because the symbol was on russell´s grave, he had to have been a templar, but its only conjecture.

the site also claims that russell was a 33rd degree mason, but provides no proof to this claim.

link

this site simple tries to compare teaching of witnesses to that of the masons. then it notes the similarities as proof of a connection.

But these occultic and spiritualistic teachings of Russell's did not pass away when he died, but continue within the church of Jehovah's Witnesses. The church teaches the New Age belief that "Now we are in the end of this gospel age, and the kingdom [of Christ] is being established or set up." That this kingdom "will obtain full, universal control...in the earth, [and that] He whose right it is thus to take dominion will then be present as earth's new Ruler" who will reign over "the new order of things on earth" in "His millennial kingdom."

except it neglects to mention that the JW´s derive this belief from scripture. so what is the bible masonic now?

link

Star
The star on the original Watchtower seal has Masonic connotations, being used on Masonic Seals

clearly they are on to something. lol

and to say that the use of jehovah is masonic lol

jehovah has been used long before the masons.

link

again, tons of claims on both mormons and JWs but no proof.

link

Today, Jehovah's Witnesses are told the Bible contains chronology which concludes that the year 1914 is an important prophetic date--the year of Christ's Second Coming, invisibly. Yet, according to the Watchtower's past teaching, the Great Pyramid also pointed to that year as the end of this world. It was claimed that 1914 and other important Biblical dates could be calculated by measuring the lengths of various passages and chambers in the pyramid. Actually one can trace calculation of the last generation to the pyramidology of C.T. Russell.

yes, russell did believe that, but he also used the cross, and he celebrated christmas (also pagan in origin). im not sure how dismissed beliefs prove that jw's are this satanic organization.

link

this site basically beats the dead horse on the above mentioned topics.

Surely some of the evidence in pictures are not hoaxed and should suffice in saying there is a link. As was the intent of the OP. I'm sure much of the evidence is credible and proven within the links. I don't believe everything within that whole website to be deemed 100% authentically verified proven beyond a reasonable doubt information before I can believe there is reason to believe a link between the two organizations.

i dont think any of the pictures are hoaxes. but most of the sites make claims without backing them up. or they omit information. sure saying that the cross and crown symbol is also used by the knights templar does appear to make a connection, but they neglect to mention that lots of christian organizations use that symbol including the roman catholic church. they also neglect to mention that the JWS dont use it anymore as to them they feel that they shouldnt.

Would you like some more links of sites that have evidence? You the reader should be able to differentiate between the truth and lies. But numerous posts continue to say that you should not read such trash. Everyone in the world is against the mason....

alot of them are trash. lol

They say prostitution is the oldest profession, I think it's freemasonry. Around for two million years throughout our civilization under different names. The link in my signature block provides a good start to understanding how history actually works.

that might be true, but what does that have to do with JWs?

reply posted on 10-2-2009 @ 07:23 AM by miriam0566

Originally posted by AllTiedTogether
Please prove to me that those links I provided are not providing valid data proving the link between JW and masons. Let me know and I can provide another 50 or so links that you call lies also, should make the mason backers look rather silly to the sensible.

you can provide a thousand sites if you want. they are all made by the same people. bitter angry ex jws hellbent on disrupting the organization.

i dont defend masons, i really dont care about anything regarding the masons. but trying to tie russell to them is tedious at best. and even if he was, jws have nothing to do with masons today. even their beliefs and objectives do not coincide.

so in other words... whats your point?

reply posted on 10-2-2009 @ 06:01 PM by AllTiedTogether

reply to post by miriam0566

yes, russell did believe that, but he also used the cross, and he celebrated christmas (also pagan in origin). im not sure how dismissed beliefs prove that jw's are this satanic organization.

Your ability to disprove that there is a link between jehovah's witness and the masons, using statements like above, show that nothing to you would prove it. You acknowledge the link but we must dismiss it because he had other beliefs etc... Your mind is set and all these people are making up all these lies because of their disgust with JW. That would be like saying all the reasons for hating bush are all made up and just out there because of a few. Just walk around the evidence and find some way to discredit the contributor. Thanks, but I know when things are obvious.

Rgds

reply posted on 11-2-2009 @ 10:43 AM by miriam0566

Originally posted by AllTiedTogether
reply to post by miriam0566

yes, russell did believe that, but he also used the cross, and he celebrated christmas (also pagan in origin). im not sure how dismissed beliefs prove that jw's are this satanic organization.

Your ability to disprove that there is a link between jehovah's witness and the masons, using statements like above, show that nothing to you would prove it. You acknowledge the link but we must dismiss it because he had other beliefs etc... Your mind is set and all these people are making up all these lies because of their disgust with JW. That would be like saying all the reasons for hating bush are all made up and just out there because of a few. Just walk around the evidence and find some way to discredit the contributor. Thanks, but I know when things are obvious.

Rgds

this is the funny part, the above statement i made was in reference to a website that talked about russells belief tha the pyramids also point to the establishment of god´s kingdom. this has NOTHING to do with masonry

so im not acknowledging any link, im simply agreeing that russell wasnt right on everything.

and the bush analogy is horrible. yes you can clearly see what bush has done to america, but go to a kingdom hall. will you find masonic symbols there? no. are there masonic rites? no. do they have masonic objectives? no.

so, no, the connection is not clear as day. in fact the only connection anyone can even suggest is through russell.

its one thing to have a theory, its another to propagate a lie

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 10:18 AM by Shunsu

reply to post by Akareyon

The tower on the watchtower is a logo - as in something people will recognize. The quote regarding engraven images doesn't mean that you can never put a logo or picture on anything. How would a JW own a business with a company logo then? It refers to using images for worship. The watchtower logo is just that. Just because i wear a t-shirt with a nike check on it doesn't mean i pray to the sneaker gods at night.

The bible that JWs use isn't there own version. In fact they didn't even publish the first version of it. It is call 'The New World Translation of The Holy Scriptures' for a reason. Not because it is code for a plan to take over the world. It's because based on the age of the bible and the various tanslations in North America we live in the New World. You know like the early settlers called it when they moved here from Europe. The bible name simply refers to the fact that it is written in plan, simple, "new world" english. However they will use any bible you like or compare theres with yours to ensure you that there isn't any difference ... well except that it doesn't read like Shakespear.

[edit on 10-4-2009 by Shunsu]

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 10:38 AM by Shunsu

reply to post by miriam0566

Hi i have looked at this a lot. As a JW with an interest in the Masons. My family has been Masons and before that Templars for centuries. I myself am not but my two borthers and father are. I have no reason for not being one other than no time. But i do know this they aren't a secret society. they are more of a club (members only). but here is th epart no one ever seems to mention ... anyone that wants to join, can. Whether you are Jewish, Christian, Muslim. Regardless of race or creed.

From what i can tell it is clear that Russell was a Mason. Even the pin JWs or bible students used to wear, with the crown and cross, goes back to the Templars (But for the grace of god and king). I think that his association with the masons actually helped him in developing his religious or spiritual beleifs. Remember it was Russel that said "religion is a snare and a racket". The JWs is supposed to be more a way of life than a religion ... however a rose by any other name ... is still a rose.

But since the Masons do not focus on a specific religious idea but more on worshipping in the manner that best suits you this would give Russell the freedom to explore his thoughts and ideas. The original watchtower is plastered with Masonic and Templar symbols. To deny any connection would by like looking at an overdosed heroin junky with the needle still in his arm and tracks all over him and say - no ... he's not a junky because i didn't see him shoot up.

Odd way to look at it but it made sense to me (x-junky). I think the real point is that everything new comes at some point form everything old. Do the JWs have any association with the Masons at this point in history ... no i don't think so. Nor are they a crazy cult bent on taking over the world. They are just a group of people with religious ideas that started with a man that was a Mason. All thou no one group is perfect and everyone has there die hard, crazy, jerks ... including JWs for teh most part the worse thing a JW will ever do to you (as a JW) is wake you up on Saturday moring by knocking on your door.

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 11:02 AM by Shunsu

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by AllTiedTogether
i dont defend masons, i really dont care about anything regarding the masons. but trying to tie russell to them is tedious at best. and even if he was, jws have nothing to do with masons today. even their beliefs and objectives do not coincide.

so in other words... whats your point?

Actually the Masons structure ... as in of the organization is very similar to that of the JWs. Again this is probably because Russell based it on what he knew and the bible as well. Much of our structure like the Masons is based on the Mosaic Law. The Masons rules are very similar and their moral code. As you said you really don't know much about the Masons but i know both the Masons and the JWs as i am a JW and i am surrounded by Masons in my family.

There beleifs and objectives are actually quite similar. Keeping in mind Masons ideals are not religious but moral codes of conduct. Based on the 1921 (date might be a bit off) Encylopedia of Masons ... something or other the rules of conduct or acceptance read; 1 - you must believe in the supreme God Jehovah. That's what it says. 2 - to care for your family. 3 - to care for your community (or those around you) ... you know ... "Love thy neighbor." And then 4th comes the Masonic brotherbood. I have seen both the JW brotherhood and the Masonic brotherhood at work and i gotta say while i as a JW can rely on help from other JWs. That help is no more readily available that that which my family gets from the Masons when needed.

I think people think of the Masons as doing something wrong because of the preceived secrecy. Also because way back in the day this was what teh church told people. Basically anything they couldn't get in on was instantly evil, lol. But to understand you have to go back into their history. It's along story to tell and 4000 characters is nowhere near enough to do it but i will make it simple. In the beginning it was punishable by death to be a Templar or even a "Stone Mason". So the members were sworn to secrecy under the threat of death. Because if they told anyone where they were meeting or who the members were they would all be in jeopardy.

The ceremony still is used but more to symbolize the importants of being a member and the brootherhood. No less ceremonial that the multiple (4 i think) evenings (and don't get me wrong its only about 30 minutes per evening ... not some weird bible torture, lol) of biblical questions that a JW has to answer when considering becoming a baptized member.

People think that Mason ceremonies are weird or cult like but we have all sorts of ceremonies in our life. Wedding, graduation, "please rise for the judge" and "put your right hand on the bible...", and so on. Heck as a JW even getting batpized is a ceremony. You are already dedicated when it takes place so it is symbolic and you answer two questions out loud for all to hear. That's a ceremony.

[edit on 10-4-2009 by Shunsu]

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 11:56 AM by Shunsu

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by SpeakerofTruth

I guess after writing this I can be called a apostate sorry if your a witness still, just pointing out some truth I wouldn't tell anyone not to reaserch the facts from all souces even "apostates"

Actually the correct definition of Apostate is someone who speaks out directly against the will of God, his son or the holy spirit. Stating something that is or could be fact does not make you an apostate. If you are an x-witness you will know that in the bible the Borians (i think thats what they were called, lol) were praised by Jesus disciples for questioning everything. I am a JW and i do not find any of your statement to be offensive.

Being upset by your statement would be like being offended by someone saying JWs used to celebrate X-mas, smoke, wear a cross. Everything evolves or changes why would a religion be any different. There is faith and then there is blind faith. I am a JW but i am more like the Boreans in that i do question things until i understand them.

I don't think JWs have everything right but at the same time in my mind i think they have things the closest to what i believe. Whether or not Russell was a Mason and i beleive the evidence shows that he was should in no way shake the foundation of your beliefs. As i have said many times to JWs who get a little "holier than thou" about things ... "Jesus used to hangout with a chick that was at one time a whore." 'Prostitute' is the more accepted name but 'whore' makes my point. Does that make Jesus immoral or does that mean Mary Magdalene was not worth to be a christian. No ... it just means she was a prostitute before she became a follower of christ. So russell was a Mason while or before he started the JWs ... big deal.

And no i am not comparing Masons to Whores ... it is just a biblical example of someone changing who they are or what they are. Russell could have been anything prior to being the founder of the bible students (AKA - JWs).

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 12:23 PM by Shunsu

Originally posted by Xcouncil=wisdom
Neat topic.
I dis-associated myself 12 years ago from the witnesses, not because I had differences in belief but because I wanted to live a guilt free life of drugs and sex. Well, since then I have realized that that led no-where.
Before I began working my way back into the organization (as for me I see them as having the most accurate version of the christian teaching ,personal veiw, not starting a fight!!!!!!) I did a bunch of internet searching about anti-witness info.
I too had come across the Russel was a mason story, and that mason's, like the witnesses, oppose the teaching of the cross? (witness's of course recognize the cross as a pre-christian idol adopted to bring in other religions when Rome made it the state religion, and that most executions of that time were done upon pikes, stakes/trees)

So, is that true about the mason's? Do they not pay homage the cross?

I'm curious

I would normally not quote an entire post but this is right up my alley. i too left the JWs for personal reasons. I believed what was taught as any person beleives their chosen religion. However, i wanted to see what else was out there and would have felt more guilty saying i was a witness while doing thngs that they do not condone. I was young and way crazy. I think i realized i had gone to far when a drug deal had gone extremely bad and i ended up taken away by 4 guys in the middle of the night to some run down apartment and spent the fun filled evening taking a beating with guns to my head and jammed into my chest.

Long story short i realized i wasn't happy because i wasn't following the lifestyle that i felt was right. That of a JW. Just as a Muslim would not feel right following his religious beliefs. It's not so much about who is right but what is right for you ... in oyur heart. An athiest friend of mine (yes i know people who are not JWs, lol) once said it best. Even not believing in a God you can't deny that the bible is at least a how to live life for dummy's book. Don't kill, steal, cheat, hate, etc.

I think people who leave teh JWs and then return don't see things so black and white as the die hards. This is why i don't have an issue with the idea of Russell being a Mason. I don't understand why witnesses in general get so hung up on the idea. I could see it if someone said satanist but being a Mason would have only strengthened Russells desire to seek out what he thought was the truth.

reply posted on 15-4-2009 @ 12:59 AM by Xcouncil=wisdom

Shunsu,
Thanks for the input, I have recently been re-instated, and I can honestly say its the happiest I've been in twelve years.
You'll get a laugh out of this I hope, I when I met with the elders last year to let them know of my intentions to work toward once again becoming a member of the congregation, I told them "I need a good brain washing, er, I need to retrain my thinking" They did not laugh.
Yeah, I was making a joke, but it was to be taken literal, I had oppened my mind to so many possiblities that even though I still had the basic knowledge I had forgetten many biblical truths, and had filled my mind with filth.
What does this comment have to do with witnesses and freemasons?
Nothing!
oh, ok. consipiracy theories are fun, I know very little about masons as I have not been one. But as a newly active JW I do enjoy the attention given by conspirists!

reply posted on 17-4-2009 @ 12:52 AM by Roark

Originally posted by AllTiedTogether
No link you say...

link

NO LINK?
link

NO LINK?
link

NO LINK?
link

NO LINK? Here's one from David Icke
link

NO LINK?
link

NO LINK?
link

Surely some of the evidence in pictures are not hoaxed and should suffice in saying there is a link. As was the intent of the OP. I'm sure much of the evidence is credible and proven within the links.

Maybe someone should have said "MEANINGFUL link".

Almost all of the links you have provided are Christian fundamentalist sites which draw upon 2 main "connections":

1. The "cross within a crown" symbol. (whooooooaahhhh!!)
2. Charles Taze Russell's interest in pyramids and other periphery.

It's 98% dubious, worthy of Freemasonrywatch.com.

I didn't even open the David Icke link. I mean, that guy claimed the was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ at one point...

Originally posted by AllTiedTogetherI don't believe everything within that whole website to be deemed 100% authentically verified proven beyond a reasonable doubt information before I can believe there is reason to believe a link between the two organizations.

Would you like some more links of sites that have evidence? You the reader should be able to differentiate between the truth and lies. But numerous posts continue to say that you should not read such trash. Everyone in the world is against the mason....

They say prostitution is the oldest profession, I think it's freemasonry. Around for two million years throughout our civilization under different names. The link in my signature block provides a good start to understanding how history actually works.

Rgds

Freemasonry, which was established as a speculative fraternity around the 1700's, is the oldest profession in the world?

Okaaaayyyy....

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 10:31 AM by uzzzy

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth

the founder of JW, one Charles Taze Russel, was a mason, complete with his own cemetery (!) today, he is buried under a pyramid, with the ubiquitous square and compass clearly engraved on it.

reply posted on 2-10-2011 @ 12:44 PM by hicsuntdrac0nis

reply to post by wellwhatnow

You can be disfellowshipped for questioning the authenticity of the bible? I used to be Jehovah's Witness when I was younger, but I was never baptized so I never had that confrontation. In what way did you question the authenticity? It should be questioned because of how many translations it has been subjected to as well as how many gospels were left out of the modern version. To my crude understanding, the Jehovah's Witness is synonymous with the KJV of the bible with all the "Lord"s converted to "Jehovah"; correct me if i'm wrong. Basically what i'm asking is if you actually spoke at a meeting [church] or if you conversed among the other witnesses about this inquiry. Either of which, I personally do not feel are appropriate grounds of expulsion from a faith.

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