Originally posted by TexasT
Learn how to "tickle" fish.

Did I miss something in survival class? Tickle fish? what is that?

Couldent you just use a sharpened stick? I mean if we were in a survival mode it doesnt mean that we lost the ability to use tools. Survival does not have to mean "roughing it" you can survive and be in good shape too. it's no wonder I never learned about tickling fish or noodling or whatever. I learned how to cut a stick with a notch in the end so that you can spear a fish and it won't get away.

I agree with you in that women in those days were not shrinking violets. My mother worked much harder in the raising of the four of us than most women today. Also much harder than many of what passes for men today.
It is just that once again in our economic affluence we tend not to think of this aspect much or give it the credit it deserves.

Yes ..the men had a habit of dying on the women ..often at much younger ages...than the women.
I had heard and read about infant mortality rates back in those days but it never really sunk in till I visited certain graveyards with older headstones. It became very quickly obvious how many women were burried within a day or two of their newborns. Our economic affluence hides this history too. We think we are way above this type of thing. It will come back in hard times.

I dont have alot of use for femminism..I also dont have alot of use for what passes for manhood today.

Oh..and I agree women should learn how to do all those things you list...as well as men.

THanks,
Orangetom

Couldent you just use a sharpened stick? I mean if we were in a survival mode it doesnt mean that we lost the ability to use tools.

And what if you lost your knife? Are you going to give up and die, or are you going to catch a fish with your bare hands?

Tools are great, but a reliance on tools is not great - it's dangerous. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst...

Anyway, spearing fish with homemade spears is rather difficult. When I was a kid I tried this method, I made my own harpoons with windfall, using my pocket knife, and attempted to nail trout in the stream. Most of the time the spear slides off their skin, it takes some degree of skill to feed yourself like that.

The trout aren't nice enough to turn over so you have a nice clean shot at their wide side from above, they're more inclined to present the thinnest profile of their body. Or, alternately, you come in from the side at too shallow an angle and the spear goes underneath the fish, or too sharp an angle and the spear slides right off.

I really don't think it's much easier than hand fishing, but I could be wrong. Maybe with a nice thin, dense piece of wood, and a good sharp, fire-hardened point you'd have much better luck. I don't know, since I've never tried it that way.

it's no wonder I never learned about tickling fish or noodling or whatever. I learned how to cut a stick with a notch in the end so that you can spear a fish and it won't get away.

It's not exactly a necessary skill, but it doesn't hurt to have the information at your disposal should you ever require it.

Noodling can be dangerous. I have a mechanic buddy that noodles regularly and is always going for record size catfish. His arms are one huge scar. He has had several surgeries for ripped veins (and arteries) as well as getting just stitched up. Funny thing: mr macho mechanic had never once considered wearing thick, long-armed gloves and seemed genuinely surprised when I mentioned it to him even though he'd been noodling for years.

Men and women can be an asset to one another in a survival situation; however, men are a woman's biggest threat to survival. We don't have to worry about getting raped by the bears or other women. We don't have to worry about getting shot at by the coyotes (and probably not too many other women). We don't have to consider for a moment that we might get dragged off by the hair of the head and Forced to Serve by the mountain lions. Man is the biggest threat, even to our own men. We can have the greatest, most noble and fearless soul on the planet but he'll be the first one shot because, generally speaking, we're not much of a threat.

Women have been in survival mode since cavemen started clubbing us and knocking us up. Yes, women must be the reason that chivalry is dead. We got tired of the chivalry exhibited to us when men burned us at the stake for having an independent mind calling us "witches". The respect for women shown in the pioneer days when a woman could work herself into an early grave for her man's land and children and never have claim to either because she was "only a woman". Women are inherently survivalists. Learning the gear/tools/equipment is new but knowing how to survive is not.

Women who berate chivalrous (courteous/respectful) behavior do not deserve it. I happened to be walking into a 7-11 one time right behind 3 women who were going in together. The man coming out of the store graciously held open the door and each of those 3 women scolded him for his "misogyny". As I was the last one through, I said, "I'm not with them and thank you sir".
I taught my sons to "never hit a lady", however there are some women out there who could play linebacker for the Dallas Cowboys and don't consider THEMSELVES to be "ladies". I said "if a woman doubles up her fist and wants to fight you like a man, defend yourself and do her all the damage you would do to a man in the same situation." Women are vicious fighters. Men will fight and then buy each other a beer later. Women fight and you'll be biodegrading in the tomato patch. Fortunately, it takes a lot to get women to that level of expressed anger.

As a survivalist and a female, I disagree with the sentiment that women want to be superior to men (there are always exceptions). Men have always had the right to "be all you can be". Some became "more" than others but they all that tacit right and opportunity. Women have not. We have been allowed to become all but equal to whatever level our men rose to and no more. Power is an inherent trait. If someone can give it to you then they can take it away and what you had was not power but license. As a survivalist and female, I know that I have power within myself. I neither lord it over anyone nor try to detract from their power. In a survival EOTWAWKI situation, I will draw from my strengths and from those of others that we may all pull through the hardships. I will (hopefully) recognize my weakness and limitations and those of others so as to avoid or minimize dangerous pitfalls. This is what it takes to survive. I like the interesting fact that the word "survivalist" is gender neutral.

I dont agree with a good portion of your post. I have been thinking it through for a couple of days and will post in reply when ready.

Thanks,
Orangetom

I was privileged some years ago to attend the years end Company party for the woman I was seeing at the time. I escorted her to the party even though I am not much of a socialite and dont really care for this type of affair.

After a while I removed myself from the ball room where the gala was happening. I sat on a chair outside the entrance where a number of women also attending the party were conversing amongst themselves.
I soon found that this was a very intresting place to obverve wildlife in its natural habitat.

As other couples came to the party..Pairs and other single women...these women at the entrance gave them the once over. And I mean the once over....big time. I realized very quickly that I was observing wild and feral conduct...unfiltered. What I saw was a type of feral pecking order with the nod or approval or the shake of the head. What this implied was much more....much much more.


Mind you now ..this was in good times..easy times...

What do you think would happen among women in difficult survival times.

HOw many women give up their substance in good times to take care of another less fortunate woman and her kids?? At the cost to their own kids?? I am not saying this does not happen...but how many do this as a career??

How many do you think will do this..carry another woman and her kids in survival times?? I say this..verses be competitors??

Most men I know are pretty much ignorant of the social roles which women assign to themselves and even the men...and thier potential in this arena. Women are not..at all. Nor ignorant of the social roles for men.

What exactly do women think is the correct social role for men in good times...How about survival times?? I think the women on this forum should commit to this answer. This tends to be assumed..not spoken outright.

I think this should be a role described by the women on this board..in both scenerios..as to exactly what is a womans belief and expectation in both situations...good and bad times.

Most men I know are not capable of asking this question..but assume....often to their demise or extinction. Men can be pretty dumb.

Thanks,
Orangetom

OT,
Thank you for your considered response. You make valid points. Since no other women seem to be responding at the moment, I'll take the opportunity to address your questions (based on nothing but my own opinions).
I believe a woman's response to and expectations from her man need to be identical in peace times as well as in survival mode. Survival mode is no time to try to be readjusting to different expectations and responses from your partner.
There is definitely a pecking order in women's social structure. I, personally find it repugnant but I recognize that it exists and can be quite brutal. I, in no way, defend such reprehensible behavior but hopefully I may be able to shed some light on how it came to be.
As I mentioned earlier, women are always in survival mode. There are many threats to our lives and lifestyles that men are blissfully unaware of. Wrinkles, cellulite, old age, lack of money/property/credit/clout, OTHER WOMEN competing for the best mates. Whether we are consciously aware of it or not, all women instinctively know that men are attracted to and choose beautiful, young women. Why else would we subject ourselves to the torture of plucking our eyebrows? (who thought THAT one up?) Why else would we shave our legs and pits? Only prepubescent females have no hair on their legs and pits. On grown women, it grows there as naturally as it does on men. We must constantly compete to get (and keep) our men as their easily distracted minds are quickly tempted by other more beautiful, younger temptresses. We must constantly compete to get or keep whatever money/property/credit or clout we obtain in order to keep men WANTING us. As I have gotten older I have come to realize that's it's all just instinct gone awry. Having a man around does not guarantee that he will protect or nurture you or stay faithful to you or the children you risked your life to give to him. That's why I just laugh at the silly games that (mostly younger) women play to put themselves at the top of the pecking order. That's why I say "happiness is a warm gun."

I agree with orangetom Men are generally igronant to their social standing. Alot of people both male and female like to assume what others would do in a siduation x. So I think not only should the females of this forum respond to organgtom's question but maybe the guys should specially if your married?

Some toughts on the social pecking orders and male-female balance in sit-X, but i assume it would be polite to clarify my background first, so that readers understand my context. I'm a man in my 20's, live in Finland and in a relationship (not married, but living with a woman)

First
I've observed a very clear difference in how droup dynamics work between male and female groups. Women seem to be constantly aware about which one of them is the "most wanted" or popular and the social order revolves around looks and desirability. (Observations are based on younger women)
On the other hand a male group organises more "task orientedly". For example I may lead by friends while moving through a new city and while doing that i'm the top dog, in other situations someone else may be the leader. And all this happens without anyone even noticing it. (mostly)
Perfect place to observe this behaviour is in High School/University

When i was in highschool girls from different "social groups" couldn't tolerate each other, but on the other hand most Boys got along farely well, sure fights every now and then, but if it was useful to work together those were "cleared" fast.


Secondly
Chivalry is not dead, most men here try to treat women well, it's just not received too well by some women. ie. Don't shout equality if you don't want to be treated like on of the guys.

Thirdly
Gender doesn't determinate your skills in any situation, best shooter in out brigade was a girl and one of the best kindergarder teachers i know is a man (ex-officer). It's all about personal skills and personalities.


Ps. Tom, yes i went to a public school and i'm proud of it, hey our school system is the best in the world by PISA tests

whitewave,

Wow!!! Thanks for your post and frankness. I is refreshing to see such frankness.

I agree with you ..women I think more than men are in a survival mode. The tools used to accomplish this are often quite different than a man but make no mistake ..it is survival.

It was a woman who first clued me into this line of thinking..not a man.

Agree on the pecking order too. Also the brutality. It was quite shocking to me when I first realized this. My initial reaction was...this cannot be!!! LOL LOL...what a dummy!! I dont particulary care for this either though I realize that for some women it is the best they have.

I am not very competitive among men per se. Not intrested in this. What I dont care for is what I consider ignorance...though I recognize that ignorance does not exclude me.

What you are describing as survival is a certain level of marketability. Perception of value in the marketplace. Marketability!! It took me a good number of years to recognize this for what it is. Also not something I would have gotten from a man...but a woman.

What I need to tell you and other women and men here...about what you are describing ..marketability or perception of marketability is not necessarily real value in the marketplace.
What I am saying or trying to say is that the youngest and most beautiful woman out there is not a gaurantee that you get a good quality woman in the long run. This is a very difficult lesson or stereotype or mold for a man to break out. It is so ingrained...and very dumb.

This is why I often say ..a good woman or man is internal first..not external.

Having a woman with the apperence of value and marketability is not the same as real value or marketability especially when you have risked your life and limb to bring home the moneys for her to be more marketable/comfortable...her and the kids.
You dont find this line of thinking in public schools ..nor will you find this line of thinking in Maxim or Cosmopolitan magazine. Nor on the evening news...looking out for you.

YOu are quite correct in your statement that much of this is instinct gone arwy. Male and female..

Northwolf,

good to see you again and on this thread.

agree with most of the points on your reply here.

However perhapsed I should qualify what I mean buy my oft used expression "Public Schools."

I have no doubt that your school standards in Finland are higher across the board than most schools here in America.

What I a mean by "Public Schools" or public school education here stateside ,when I use that expression, is to faciteously say.. a television education. In otherwords majoring mostly in emotions ...not thinking. This is to me what much of public school education here Stateside has become.

I just wanted to clarify this. So when you see me make this statement you know to what I am alluding..a television education.

Thanks olde man..and
Keep them in the X ring,

Thanks to all for thier replys,
Orangetom

As to women in survival situations: men I've met who claim to be survivalists want at least a pretty girl (gorgeous is better). Homely and survival oriented is unacceptable. I'm afraid they're going to be disappointed in their barbie dolls when SHTF.
I've been told by many men that I'm quite attractive but that I really shine when I wear make-up. It may be true but a girl that claims to be a survivalist probably isn't one that's going to wear make-up often.
My (now) ex and I were camping with the kids in the Pacific Northwest a few years back and the kids were in the tent while the Mr. and I were sitting around the campfire sharing a quiet moment. We knew there was a mountain lion in our area because we'd seen the fresh tracks just that day and heard it roaring. That night a pair of eyes glowed at us from the other side of the campfire and I immediately jumped up, grabbed my boot knife, ready to stand by my man and defend the family. I turned to him for moral support as we would inevitably be preparing for mortal battle. He had turned and was running back to the tent to save himself. In that moment I lost all respect for him. He later said that he was running to get the gun but the gun was unloaded and the mountain lion was only 10 feet away from us at the time. I was able to immediately assess the urgency of the situation and realize that there was no time to fetch and load a weapon. The mountain lion did not attack but I knew then that just because one has testosterone running through their blood rather than estrogen does not make them fit for leadership.

Wow!! I Have never been in that kind of situation with wildlife...well four legged wildlife..that is. Good that you saw the eyes first.

I do know that predators like that if they decide to attack can close the gap quickly. If you run you can often be in more trouble..though the flight reflex can be quite powerful. If they are not immediately determined to attack a change of posture is usually sufficient to dissuade or cause them to hesitate. Mountain lion would be bad enough ...I would hate to have to put this to the test with a bear.

No tostesterone does not make one fit for leadership. It takes more ..much more. It takes real instinct and dicipline too. I do know that when you push them so far in certain situations many women will fold up..but try that against thier children....big difference. You will find yourself with a tiger by the tail and you cannot let go.

My standard for leadership with a person for whom I would follow is can I count on them in a very sticky situation to watch my back. Are they trustworthy.

It is no different with a woman. I sometimes take very serious risks with my safety for my moneys. These moneys come dearly during these cycles.
In like manner I am very choosy about the character of the woman on whom I choose to spend my hard earned moneys.
Can a woman like this watch my back in her womanly ways..including my hard earned moneys. Or is this just a system of entitlements...survival situation or not. To me this is a standard for survival. Good times or bad.
A high maintenance beautiful woman is a huge liability to me. I have been around many of them. To me they are good for only one thing and most not even good at that. Pardon the crudity but that is how I feel about it. Way overated!! But that is just me.
Most men I know are precisely of the mold you describe. Throw a little beauty and Phat Yams in front of them and all practical brainwave activity flatlines.

Thanks for your post,
Orangetom

Whitewave,

Golly, to hear you describe it like that... I'm glad I'm a tomboy!

I'm also glad that I have completely different standards for picking a mate... (although I'm still not sure if those standards are by choice or chance, as I am an odd duckling whether or not I'm trying to be a 'girl' or not...) If he ever decides that he'd rather be with someone else -- he may leave. Pecking order or not, I refuse to extend my claws to 'defend' a man who won't readily stand by me.

I've never understood why we hafta go through all this crap. I always figured it was this odd fashion sense, trying to be like the twig models and such. A way of selling stuff because it's been popularly determined as 'necessary'. Someone else determining what's truly beautiful and then making it a marketing strategy, a blinder, a profit...

Now, it makes sense. a scary kind of sense.. *shudders*
Thank You.


My question is -- what will happen when the shtf?
Will men still be demanding women to shave? to pluck? to put on make up?
Will women be more worried about their hairy legs or lack of make up than their next meal?

Sometimes I wonder about the fate of the human race... most of the time I just don't friggin' understand its motives...

Wow...well said..I am aware that I dont always think like many men too.

In your case by your description I salute you for your method and rationale of choice. I too dont want a woman who desires to go somewhere else. Best to let her go and I have. I dont believe in fighting over women ..to many of them out there to be fighting over one. It is really not a matter of finding a woman but one as I described earlier ..a woman of certain character. Good times or bad.
The same could be said of a woman finding a man suitable. For many women thier moneys too come dearly. The man in whom a woman chooses to invest her time and moneys should be carefully scrutinized for these traits..not just the ribbon on the package so to speak.

LOL LOL ..I too have certain concerns about the human race. I know so many males and females with the attitide that life can be enjoyed without risk and without inconvenience..between sound bites on the boob tube.

NOt really funny in a certain view. My nightmare is to be stuck on a island with about 400 people who know how to shop and play video games.

I no longer worry about being a square peg in the round hole. Others can just P.... Off!!!

Thanks for your post,
Orangetom

As a girl I was told that I was a "tomboy". It was not said with a smile or meant as a compliment. I was tucked away like a family secret. Even as a child I couldn't comprehend the ridiculous, non-utilitarian value system that everyone seemed to share but me. Spending .10 cents on a bullet to bring down 150# meat made much more sense to me than "comparison shopping" for the best deals at the meat market. As a teenager I enjoyed dancing with wild abandon while the other, more sophisticated girls my age were afraid to sweat into their lacquered curls. As a grown woman, I had a lay midwife deliver my children at home rather than trust to the hirelings of some impersonal hospital. I've been in many survival (life and death) situations and found I had more intestinal fortitude for the situation than the others who also faced them. So it really chaps my a** to have some swaggering, belicose braggart treat me like a brain-dead cupcake just because he stands to pee.
I have the utmost respect for men, really I do. There's just so few of them these days. Most males I've encountered are just "guys". Most women are worse. I shudder to think of a real, honest to god emergency in which character counts in either gender. I have met more truly "human" beings of value on ATS than in all the social groups I've waded through over the years.
It's refreshing to see an honest exchange of ideas/information where one does not even have to reveal what gender they are before being treated like an equal.
God bless us every one.

I am not a “people” person. I can be quite shy until I get to know someone. However, I have a certain social bravado that I often employ in some situations to overcome the shyness. I have one friend who lives on the east coast that I’ve known since high school. Other than that, I have never had a close friend. My best friend is my husband.

I have always been a non-traditional female. After trying traditional roles without success, I gave up and joined the Navy. Although trained as a diesel and turbine mechanic, I often found myself stuck behind a desk in a more traditional “female” role. After the Navy, I became a licensed aircraft mechanic. I have always been a non-conformist. My husband and I prefer to go tent camping in the late fall to early spring. Snow and cold weather are not a problem.

I do not wear make up or jewelry and seldom wear perfume. I am happy in my 12 year relationship with my husband, a Vietnam vet Marine, and see no need to feel competitive with other females. This is probably why I have no close friends. I have very little in common with most females.

Most men that I know are just as vapid as the women. It seems that no one wants to plan more than five seconds into the future. I enjoy today’s technology, and at 53 I appreciate all the little time saving devices that so many have come to depend on but I can quickly convert to a life without it.

I have nothing against men or women, but there are very few people that I trust. I am not anti-social, but I prefer solitude. You may think I have issues, but it works for me. If I have to have any interactions with others after TSHTF, I hope it is with someone like the three previous posters.

Hey! I'm there for ya, DarkElf. You sound like my kind of people.

Originally posted by darkelf
I am not a “people” person. I can be quite shy until I get to know someone. However, I have a certain social bravado that I often employ in some situations to overcome the shyness. I have one friend who lives on the east coast that I’ve known since high school. Other than that, I have never had a close friend. My best friend is my husband.

I am somewhat shy and also have a certain bravado which I employ at times depending on the mood. As I have stated in certain posts..I just dont care for alot of wildlife...the two legged kind...male or female. After watching two legged wildlife I can appreciate the four legged kind and thier motivations much more than the two legged type.
I too have very few friends by choice.

I have nothing against men or women, but there are very few people that I trust. I am not anti-social, but I prefer solitude. You may think I have issues, but it works for me. If I have to have any interactions with others after TSHTF, I hope it is with someone like the three previous posters.

I am "anti social" ..except with a select handful...and also prefer solitude. A good movie..a good book...good select company..a task with which to accomplish and I am good for hours. Other than that it is me and Oda Mae..my beloved orange tabby from which extends my screen name. Agree ..it works fine for me..and I dont care who likes or dislikes it.
I have thoroughly raised my leg and marked out this piece of property where in is my home. No wildlife need apply.

Ok....Ok...taking a deep breath now..

Ok...off my..soap box..

Darkelf..very intresting about your time in the Navy. I have spent a bit of time working the diesel engines on thes submarines and aircraft carriers in this yard. Hard work at times.

Thanks for the post,
Orangetom