There will be no dominance on F-22

On Dec. 20, commander in chief of Russia AF stated that Russia has completed design of AL-41 turbofan engine for new generation fighter, the advanced engine will be over 20,000kg thrust at full afterbutner and over 16,000 kg without reheater. As long as the new engine is produced, new generation fighter of Russia AF will make maiden flight in 2008. Since ripe-engine AL-31NF already approached thrust at 16,000kg several years before, there will be no doubt that AL-41 will be successfully tested in next year.

The other bad news for F-22 is Irbis AESA made out from Russia has been announced that can reach target which RCS even lower than 0.1 ms far from 200 km. Because of range of missile carried by F-22 never beyond 80 km, so there wil be extrem dangrous for F-22 when F-22 meet with Su-35 which equiped Irbis Radar and LRA2Amissiles.

Don't sleep in Christmas, while you play in celebration, your enemies are peeping probably

Can you source a few links on that?
The Irbis AESA was meant for the the Su-30 MKIs post 2010, but if those capabilities are true then it would be stupid for the Russians to export it to non-aligned nations.
In the Russian armed forces, the Irbis is meant for the Su-35 and..??

This thing about Irbis AESA if its true then the Raptor and F-35 are gona be in trouble since PAK-FA, as far as I know, is up for grabs for any one with money.

by the way where did you get this news Irbis radar's range from?

yeah i heard 2010 to 2012 to be operational ????
i dont think the russians would sell so soon until they are put
into their own fighters......


F-22 all the way

Originally posted by emile
On Dec. 20, commander in chief of Russia AF stated that Russia has completed design of AL-41 turbofan engine for new generation fighter, the advanced engine will be over 20,000kg thrust at full afterbutner and over 16,000 kg without reheater. As long as the new engine is produced, new generation fighter of Russia AF will make maiden flight in 2008. Since ripe-engine AL-31NF already approached thrust at 16,000kg several years before, there will be no doubt that AL-41 will be successfully tested in next year.

Yes but does anyone have the money to put this engine in any of their aircraft? Just engines alone aren't going to diminish the Raptor's dominance right now. Don't expect the Flankers to have the same supersonic persistance as Raptor with these engines anyway...if the engines exist in the first place.

The other bad news for F-22 is Irbis AESA made out from Russia has been announced that can reach target which RCS even lower than 0.1 ms far from 200 km. Because of range of missile carried by F-22 never beyond 80 km, so there wil be extrem dangrous for F-22 when F-22 meet with Su-35 which equiped Irbis Radar and LRA2Amissiles.

You do know that the Raptor's RCS is much lower than 0.1sq m don't you? Trust me, the Raptor's sensor package is on a whole different level than the Flankers.

Show me a source for that ".1 200KM" claim, also, lets wait until this very allusive yet often mentioned Russian 5th Gen fighter first flies (if), then, when (if) it gets produced we can talk. Until then enough with the baseless claims.

One more point, no matter what upgrades the Flanker/Mig series get they will never match the F-22 in capability. You cannot make up for what the F-22 has built in by adding on . Also, the Aim-120C-7 and Aim-120D have (standard) ranges of more than 80 km, let alone when fired from an F-22.

Maybe its a testbed for the 5th gen Russian fighter-to-be..

Show you link? I do can show you link, but if you see it is a Chinese web, you will say I could be cheating you. Remember, there is also no first hand evidence can be used to prove that F-22's RCS could be lower than 0.1 in any way.

Originally posted by emile
Remember, there is also no first hand evidence can be used to prove that F-22's RCS could be lower than 0.1 in any way.

There's no evidence of the F-22's RCS number period but it is in the range of the B-2. Do Russian engineers have any clue about the RCS figures of the F-22 and B-2? No, so they don't have any detection ranges either.

Most estimates have the Raptor in the .001-.0001sq m range.

Then, why F-117 was shot down in Yugo. 1998? As many boast by American self, how lower the RCS of F-117?

Originally posted by emile
Then, why F-117 was shot down in Yugo. 1998?

Irrelevant question but I will answer anyway. It was shot down because (like everything else) it was not invincible. And because different circumstances and a complex situation led to it.

You will find that if you judge the success and effectiveness of aircraft by whether or not they have ever been showdown that ALL of them have been failures. However the F-117 was far from being one.

Originally posted by emile
Then, why F-117 was shot down in Yugo. 1998? As many boast by American self, how lower the RCS of F-117?

Yeah, I'm here to calm down your big smile... I remember I read the Popular Mechanic magazine state the reason why F-117 was shot down because it somehow got aligned with signal by cellphone which exposed the location of jet to the cheapest radar these Yugoslav could just grin their face out to shoot it down... Hey, F-117 is beginning to replaced by F-22... Originally, I like Pak-Fa fighter design but USAF pilots aren't going to underestimated by this "still-on-paper" fighter. How long Russians are going to finally finish...No I mean, flying it?

[edit on 25-12-2006 by OneMyrmidon]

Originally posted by JFrazier
Do Russian engineers have any clue about the RCS figures of the F-22 and B-2? No, so they don't have any detection ranges either.

I don't know about anything else on this thread, but wouldn't bet my life on what you're saying

Popular Mechanics : a truly reliable intelligence source. NOT

The F-117 that was shot down got hit by the dreaded golden BB. Triple AAA fire not by any radar guided missile. They broke a cardinal rule of modern combat tactics and followed the same flight path several times and the Serbs were waiting for them with a wall of missiles and AAA. They were like a hundred hunters waiting for a single goose. The cell phone story's a myth. If it was true the Russians would have fed the info to the Iraqi's to help them knock down US jets. The Russians want to sell their equipment just as badly as we want to sell ours.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
I don't know about anything else on this thread, but wouldn't bet my life on what you're saying

Ha, even if they did know the numbers (unlikely), what are they going to test these radars against? There are always absolutely tiny details that change a radar return.

Originally posted by emile
Then, why F-117 was shot down in Yugo. 1998? As many boast by American self, how lower the RCS of F-117?

How many cumulative sorties have the F-117's flown against/through/around dense Soviet/Russian (and possibly European) made SAM and AAA sites? THOUSANDS - with the loss of a single aircraft and probably a few "minor" hits and near misses. If these sorties had been flown with any models of the F-16, F-15, or F-18, the outcome admittedly would be the loss of significantly more aircraft. The LO of the F-117 IN ADDITION to the tactics that are typically used could arguably be the most successful attack aircraft in history, when looking strictly at total number of aircraft produced/total number of combat sorties flown/total number of combat losses.

There's no evidence of the F-22's RCS number period but it is in the range of the B-2. Do Russian engineers have any clue about the RCS figures of the F-22 and B-2? No, so they don't have any detection ranges either.

Most estimates have the Raptor in the .001-.0001sq m range.

That is an ignorant statement - there really isn't another way to put it. They (the Russians, Chinese, and Indians) know quite a lot about both. The surface materials are easier to get hold of than you might think, and when the development of a program extends past 10 years, it's pretty easy to have worked a source into the "inside" of the program. The cold war may be over, but the mentalities haven't changed much.

posted by WestPoint23
You will find that if you judge the success and effectiveness of aircraft by whether or not they have ever been showdown that ALL of them have been failures. However the F-117 was far from being one.

Isn't the F-15 the only Aircraft to never have been downed in combat? or has that changed in recent years?

posted by crgintx
The cell phone story's a myth. If it was true the Russians would have fed the info to the Iraqi's to help them knock down US jets. The Russians want to sell their equipment just as badly as we want to sell ours.

I heard that a mechanical fault left one of the bay doors open, increasing it's RCS. That, combined with the same flight path taken caused it to be shot down.

As for your "cellphone myth" quip, may I suggest you look into CELLDAR. The same concept can also be applied to any EM broadcast facility, say TV and Radio too.

It is, however, still in it's early stages, so I doubt it would have been operational in 1998, certainly not to the point where one could integrate it into your AA defences.

Stumason is correct regarding CELLDAR.

Non-prototype, production line, PCL (passive coherent location) systems were not in full service back in '98 - with the exception of the TAMARA system.
Also, there is no evidence nor anyone who would actually know, coming forward to say that the F-117 was shot down using PCL technology.

Most concur that the F_117 was shot down by a clever and lucky SA-6(?) crew ripple firing their missiles.

However, the technology is now in service with Russia, China, UK, Australia, and the US, and possibly others.
Some examples of these systems are CELLDAR, Silent Sentry, Tamara, and the list goes on.



[edit on 12-27-2006 by intelgurl]

Originally posted by stumason
Isn't the F-15 the only Aircraft to never have been downed in combat? or has that changed in recent years?

The F-15 has not been shot down as a result of air to air combat, however several Eagles have been downed as a result of ground fire, and no it's not a recent development.