The Liverpool FC Thread

Lucas may have been good in Brazil but he simply Isn't up to premiereship standards. It may also be that Liverpool desease whereby we buy a great player and somehow turn him into a mediocre player!? There's a long list of players who came to Liverpool with a big reputation only to fail miserably. Remember what happened to Keane!?

The loss of Alonso, the lack of investment and bad buys will be our downfall. It's now a case of what happens next! Will Rafa quit because of lack of funds? Will the American owners quit and sell up? How long will Torres or Mascherano stick around if Liverpool start slipping down the table? And what about if the credit disaster carries on as it is in America, the owners may feel the need to sell on some of our better players?

Sorry to sound like the merchant of football doom but I'm just so fed up with the nonsense going on at my club at the moment. I sincerly hope I'm wrong. . .

The beauty of football!

It's a great game followed by great people who all know they are right and everyone else is wrong!

But I must say, statistics is ruining TV presentation of football for me nowadays.
We have stats for everything and it annoys the hell outta me.

ESPN's coverage has even more than Sky's.
How frigging annoying!

Football is a simple game, played and watched by simple people.
Far too many people try to over complicate it.

Keep it bloody simple!

reply to post by Freeborn

What is it they say- "Theres lies, damn lies, then there's statistics!"

Statistics don't mean anything in football. All that matters is putting the ball in the back of the net more than the opposing side! It's not rocket science. . . All Lucas is good at is scoring own goals, giving the ball away and back passes. . . We should sell him now while he could still fetch a decent price rather than wait until after Christmas when his reputation as a good player will be well and truly dead in the water.

Hmm, have we been here before? Feels awfully familiar. Last season is already feeling like a blip, not to be repeated or bettered. It's easy for me to point the finger at Lucas, the bloke isn't a player good enough for where we want to be. Babel is also a player I would like to move on.

One thing I've noticed in the last two games that Carra and Skrtel played in is that they seem to take up the same positions at key moments. Clashed heads at Spurs and both going for the header on Monday night for the second goal. I'll try and post a picture of the average positions each player took on the pitch throughout the game and you will see that their circles overlap.

Jeez.

First off, what happened to You'll Never Walk Alone? What happened to the old kop spirit? All I'm seeing is petty bickering and pessimism. We're supposed to be Liverpool fans - you know - the most knowledgeable. patient and tolerant fans in football - remember?

So far we are the only team - with the exception of Arsenals freak result - who has played any of the "top 6 genuine contenders" (although I will give a sly nod to Fulham here as well because I rate Hodgson as a manager)

Villa and Spurs are more than capable on any given day of taking points off anyone, and thats the bottom line, because I just said so. Lets see how our worthy adversaries fare against them in future weeks eh?

Oh and by the way, on the Lucas thing - I remember this guy we used to have in midfield. Never did anything spectacular particularly in his first couple of seasons. People said he wasn't top flight standard, not really big enough or fast enough etc and questioned the manager for selecting him etc.

His name was Sammy Lee. Sound familiar?

YNWA

I remember a few years ago, people were saying exactly the same things about Carragher - no pace, couldn't tackle, couldn't pass, couldn't defend and people were crucifying Houllier for sticking with him, even playing him at left back for one season, before eventually moving him into the centre where he blossomed.

We had the same when Gerrard first came on the scene, he was crucified for giving away pens, silly fouls, getting booked and sent off. He had no discipline so couldn't play in the middle (still true) no pace to play out wide (that's a laugh) and looked for personal glory all the time. Then Rafa arrived and played a new system to fit Gerrard and Torres, and guess what, he's now lauded as one of the best in the world.

It's strange that it's always the same people doing the bitching - and I know, having been around the ground, the city, having many friends from there and a lot of the LFC forums for a long time.

Some scousers are professional whiners - never happy unless they've got someone to have a go at, someone to pick on, like playground bullies.

The worse things is though, the VERY worse thing is that some people rely on a rag of a newspaper to GIVE them their opinion - it's like they don't have eyes in their heads and can't form a coherent thought unless the media drip feed it to them, or unless some clueless commentator says it.
These are the people who have the gall to slag players off, and call them names from the stands - they're brave when they do that, not so brave when someone like cantona comes along.

Every single bitchfest that I read or hear is regurgitated from the gutter press, people spewing the same bile as the journo's who've had the knives out for the last few years because Rafa won't play ball with them. In other words the Murdoch press - because that's where most of the stories originate, so nice one guys for spreading the s**'s rumours and doing their job for them. You should be ashamed.

If that's what people want to do, then they can go right ahead and do it.

Don't expect me to join in though - I'll be too busy supporting my team and their manager.

I don't read any articles about the team or our matches. I just watch the games. My opinions are my own. I thought Benayoun was a great signing for us when everyone I knew was whinging that he was a lightweight West Ham reject. I could see the effort and desire in his play which made up for any lack of quality. In my mind, I cannot see Lucas improving to the extent that I would want him to. Maybe my standards are too high and of course, if I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit it. No matter what, I'll keep supporting the lads, never boo them and never give up on them. No matter how frustrating they can be.


YNWA

reply to post by Yossarian


And that is a true fan.

I don't just watch the matches, I record them, analyse them and look for individual characteristics, strengths and weaknesses of players - always with the sound turned off. Why should a commentator who basically knows very little distract me?

In this some might say that I'm a bit obsessed or even sad - that's their choice.

My choice is to try and understand football as best I can, even when I can't always see what the manager or coaches see in a player.
The thing is, if I watch them enough, it soon becomes pretty obvious - even though I have nowhere near the same knowledge as any coach or manager.
Except maybe David Pleat, cos he's a gob#e stuck in the 70's and 80's.

According to an ITK on one of the LFC forums a person within the club recently said that Alonso's worth was overestimated by the fans because although he was easy on the eye he wasn't dynamic enough to break down teams who park the bus, and this can be seen in Benitez' willingness to let him go (even though he played hardball with madrid)
Frankly, I find that an astonishing statement, but then realised that none of the most successfull teams of the last few years play with that deep lying type of playmaker.

Basically what I'm saying is that anyone who thinks they can safely second guess Benitez is deluded, and if he thinks Lucas is good enough (not to mention Dunga) then that's good enough for me.

The man has forgotten more about football than most people will ever know.

I think there's two reasons why Lucas looks so bad so far this season. One, he's not really that good to begin with; and two, Rafa has already set up his side as if Aquilani is already playing. . .
Lucas is in two minds, should he push on or simply leave it to Gerrard or should he sit deep alongside Mascherano.
And as for us bickering instead of singng, "You'll Never Walk Alone. . ." Yes, Liverpool supporters are the most loyal and sincere followers in the premiereship but at the same time it has been proven that they also have the most knowledge about tactics and systems. When the Koppites on the fan websites, in the local and national newspapers, and even on the hallowed pages of ATS begin to moan and wonder what's going on you know you're in trouble.
The easiest solution to all this would be if the American owners sold up or at the very least released funds to buy some new players.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.




I agree.

I think it's actually a good thing that we recognize we're in a bit of trouble.
I see nothing wrong with discussing problems we can see in the team and players that are clearly no good.

Now if a MAN U fan were to come in here and start saying it....we would all hammer them and defend our team staunchly.


The point is as LFC fans....we have a right to discuss any aspect of our team we wish...

At the moment it is abundantly clear that the majority of LFC fans regard Lucas as a poor acquisition....this is compounded by his inconsistent and way below average performances.

He's had 2-3 good games in his time with us.... not nearly good enough.


You're right, The owners need to piss off and sell the club to someone who is interested, then we can get back on track.
The back-room goings on over the last couple years have done nothing but destabilize the club put us in financial difficulty.



And yes Mintwithahole, you were right about the ignore button (I've never had the need to use it before, and that's saying something)

It makes this thread a pleasant place once again.

reply to post by blupblup

Yes, the ignore button. . .peace,perfect peace!

You're spot on about Liverpool fans defending their team to the bitter end etc. At my local Liverpools tactics and players is all we talk about. I'm sure you do the same. Arguing over who should be in the side who should be on the bench, the tactics, the formation, potential signings, it's what makes football the great game it is. Even when we win well we still discuss weaknesses and what we should do to strengthen the side.
I am still a Rafa supporter. For me I still hold him close due to that fantastic night (the miracle) in Istanbul, but my patience is wearing rather thin.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.



Exactly mate... that's the fans job.
I support the team no matter what and defend criticism from any other teams' fans..... but it's becoming more difficult at the moment because much of the criticism is warranted.

I Love Rafa... think he's an excellent manager, but he still does things that annoy me.... plays players out of their position etc.

But yeah.... After THAT final.... how can he not be hailed??


But yes...we'll continue to analyse, criticise and scrutinise the team this season, and i hope things work out.


I think many fans' patience is wearing thin mate, not just yours.


As i said before... the back room problems have knocked us back a few steps (years?) and hopefully those can be overcome.

We shall see my friend

[edit on 26/8/09 by blupblup]

reply to post by blupblup


Which players do you think are played out of position?

And are you going to answer my previous questions?

Or is it more the fact that you can't.

reply to post by budski


Admirable that. I tend to look into tactics far too much. After all, as Shanks once said: “Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and of making yourself available to receive a pass. It is terribly simple.”

reply to post by Yossarian


At the moment and for some time I've wanted to know what makes a manager pick a player, but perhaps more importantly, what makes a manager stick by a player.

Whilst doing a little research into Rafa, I discovered that his "muse" if you like is Rinus Michels, but also that he favours the addition of the desequillibrante (Gerrard in our case) to infuse the team with creativity and keep opponents on the back foot.

One of the consequences of having a desequillibrante is that the rest of the team with no exceptions, must be very focussed and stick to the plan - whatever that plan might be for that particular match and opponent.

he is also a huge believer in possession football and circulation football, which he see's as vital ingredients of the Rinus Michels Total Football philosophy.

In analysing the play of Lucas I discovered 2 things - he very, very rarely gives the ball away (less than 1 in 10 passes on average) and he sticks rigidly to whatever task he is given.

Also, despite what some think he is a very good tackler - he had a better tackle success percentage last season than Masch, Gerrard or Alonso.

The first attribute is one people pick up on most - they think that because he passes sideways or backwards he is ineffective, when this is simply untrue.
It doesn't matter where the pass goes as long as possession is kept.
Keep possession long enough and the opposition will become stretched, once they become stretched they are there for the taking.

The quote from Shanks is what Lucas does and does superbly - he passes and moves, he keeps it simple, he uses the space intelligently, and he keeps the pitch big in attack and small in defense.
The very basics of football.

He also suffers when people in front of him are static or have relatively little movement, which has happened this season and happened at the start of last season too, when Xabi looked awful on occasion because the front players were static.

Like it or not, for as long as Rafa is here, Lucas will be here - he is integral to Rafa's plans, as he turns us into another Valencia, full of intelligent players who can interchange and play quick one touch football like this:








[edit on 27/8/2009 by budski]

CL draw just finished and we did pretty well compared to chelsea and Manu

We got Lyon, Fiorentina, Debrecen.
We should go through reasonably comfortably.

reply to post by Yossarian


Exactly.
Keep it simple.

I am sick to death of pundits and statisticians over complicating what is a simple, but beautiful game.

It's not hard.
Get the ball off your opponents and pass to a team mate until someone get's the opportunity to shoot.
Over simplification?
Possibly, but come on....Sky, ESPN, BBC and ITV have become so anal in their presentation of facts and statistics it absolutely bores the tits off me!
The newspapers are even more anal with more and more space devoted to statistics and less and less to match details etc.

Shanks knew a thing or two about football.
Perhaps people should re-familiarise themselves with his take on things.

Thank god...

Great comeback actually.... we showed the fight that's been lacking today.


And Gerry's season looks to have started.


COME ON!!!

reply to post by blupblup


We won but that was scary! Once again Lucas let us down by moaning to the ref to show a red card which he eventually did. Once Bolton were down to 10 men we were bound to win. . .

Still, it's very scary how teams are easily scoring against us!

Yep....everyone was saying get rid of Lucas..... not one fan was defending him

But yes, defensively we are shocking although kyrgiakos looks good man.
He's managed to fit straight in.

Carra has been shaky for a few games now and i never thought I'd say that.


But yeah, hopefully we can put a run together now.


A wins a win though, It's all good.