Guantonamo

I would like to know what everyone's opinion is on the detainees in cuba. Do you think they deserve a fair trial or not?

www.guardian.co.uk...

like everybody they indeed deserve a serieus trial, i believe the way they tread the people there is against humanity...but thats normal for the USA :]

Here's a good place to start with opinions:

""War Crimes" at Gitmo"
Link;
www.abovetopsecret.com...

"US court to hear Guantanamo cases"
Link:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

"The Torture Chamber: Guantanamo Bay"
Link:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

"US will hold terror "suspects" for possibly DECADES"
Link:
www.abovetopsecret.com...



These thread may help your topic remain productive.

regards
seekerof

Does someone in the military make decisions for themselves, or do they follow orders to a certain extent?
Uniform or not, these people were DEFENDING THEIR COUNTRY from invasion. Of course they deserve a fair trial.

Even the Nazi head honchos got fair trials at Nuremburg. Ditto for Milosevic.

But apparently not for grunts who fight the U.S.

Some U.S. military leaders agree.

www.commondreams.org...

They're filing a brief with the Supreme Court.

You speak with forked tongue Jak....

"They deserve a fair trial"...we maybe they do but do you need a refresher coarse again on how and why they are classiefied as they are?
Then you throw in that even the "Nazi head honchos got fair trails".....?
You mean to say that they got a trial....
Fair can be subjective and in the case of those "Nazi head honchos" it was "subjective." But, the difference is that the "Nazi honchos" were classified as "POW"....!

Again, as per previous discussions on this, you can bitch, moan, cry, whine, and obviously howl at the moon....it will make no difference....
They are at "Gitmo"......and thats a special case all by its lonesome, and then you through in the "detainees".....

And your throwing "some military leaders" agree bit is totally way of base! Let me ask you something Jak.....since Canada is steady reducing its military forces and funding virtually every year........................do your "military leaders" voice their opinions "for" and "against" such? Wait.....you don't have to answer that...I can....the answer is yes!, they most certainly do! Apply that to what you are trying to justfy when you mentioned "military leaders agree" bit.....

I posted for you, as well as a few others, what the "obstacles" are pertaining to those at Gitmo and exactly how the US government has classified and categorized the "detainees"......

BTW....have you joined any of those organizations or groups that are down at Gitmo protesting this issue or do you just feel more comfortable behind that computer screen crying and whining over it? If you don't like it, do something to change it...........

Have a good one.

regards
seekerof

Personally, I think there should be more transparency with regards to the detainees at Gitmo. If they can't bleed them of any more information, they need to either charge them with something or send 'em back to where they came from. It's inhumane to do otherwise. I mean, if you can, imagine yourself caught up in those circumstances. Guilty or not-guilty, how would you feel if you knew you'd likely never see your home or loved ones again, that they'd never really know what happened to you, that you'd have absolutely no representation.. It's no wonder so many of them have tried to kill themselves.
They were fighting a war. They should be charged with conspiracy to commit terrorism or acts of terrorism - or - be given a military tribunal under and according to the Nuremburg trials.
Just my take. I know some may accuse me of being "Liberal," but I'm not. I just believe that everyone deserves counsel or some kind of fair hearing. As far fetched as this might sound, one of these days, it could be you or me being wrongly accused (under the Patriot Acts).

well said eastcoastkid.

Fair trial yes,

but for god's sake charge them with something or release them !

Originally posted by elevatedone
well said eastcoastkid.

Fair trial yes,

but for god's sake charge them with something or release them !

Yes! Let's be done with it! How can we talk about freedom and Democracy when we turn around and treat those people like animals? Talk about the height of hypocrisy.

I think, if I am not mistaken ECK, I have read here within the last week or two, that the US has been sending detainees 'home' or somewhere....
Let me see if I can locate those articles.

I would tend to agree with what your saying when you said: "Personally, I think there should be more transparency with regards to the detainees at Gitmo. If they can't bleed them of any more information, they need to either charge them with something or send 'em back to where they came from."

As to this:
"It's inhumane to do otherwise. I mean, if you can, imagine yourself caught up in those circumstances. Guilty or not-guilty, how would you feel if you knew you'd likely never see your home or loved ones again, that they'd never really know what happened to you, that you'd have absolutely no representation.. It's no wonder so many of them have tried to kill themselves."

IMHO, I see a difference but then I don't see a difference between them and those that spent years as POW's and "detainees" in multiple wars and conflicts and thats not even mentioning those that are enslaved, etc. throughout the world today......is/was anyone 'crying and whining' to help them? Was/Is it condemned as much as the US is being condemned for the "detainee" issues at Gitmo? This could go on, but yes ECK, the issue needs to be resolved....


regards
seekerof

Seeker: Yes, I am a member of Amnesty International ($1.66 a day) and Human Rights Watch (50$ a year).

I also have been to Cuba in the last 8 months, but nobody can get on Gitmo as a tourist, nor would I particularly want to.

I have also written letters to many Canadian government officials to protest Guantanomo.

You?

j

[Seerkerof...said, If you don't like it, do something to change it...........
~~++~~

One Action you could take--->>>

takeaction.amnestyusa.org...

(wow, i posted this org. address on another thread, just minutes ago.............coincidence??)
~~~

the USA blasts others about Human Rights Violations,
& affording dignity, humanity, etc
A clean cage, balanced traditional diets, cannot be a criterion for dignity. humanity......or can it?

Here are some:
"U.S. to Free 140 Guantanamo War Detainees -Report" Sun Nov 30, 5:01 PM ET
Link:
story.news.yahoo.com.../nm/20031130/ts_nm/security_guantanamo_dc (Reuters)

"British detainees 'heading home'"November 30, 2003
Link:
www.news.com.au...

"U.S. gives new assurances on trial for Australian terror suspects" Nov 25, 2003
Link:
highmarkfunds.stockpoint.com.../329w2589.xml

"Guantanamo Canadian Back Home, Admits Gun Training" Dec. 1
Link:
abcnews.go.com...

*edit*
To add another article I just found;
"U.S. to Transfer 100 Guantanamo Prisoners" Nov. 30
Link:
abcnews.go.com...


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 3-12-2003 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
I think, if I am not mistaken ECK, I have read here within the last week or two, that the US has been sending detainees 'home' or somewhere....
Let me see if I can locate those articles.

I would tend to agree with what your saying when you said: "Personally, I think there should be more transparency with regards to the detainees at Gitmo. If they can't bleed them of any more information, they need to either charge them with something or send 'em back to where they came from."

As to this:
"It's inhumane to do otherwise. I mean, if you can, imagine yourself caught up in those circumstances. Guilty or not-guilty, how would you feel if you knew you'd likely never see your home or loved ones again, that they'd never really know what happened to you, that you'd have absolutely no representation.. It's no wonder so many of them have tried to kill themselves."

IMHO, I see a difference but then I don't see a difference between them and those that spent years as POW's and "detainees" in multiple wars and conflicts and thats not even mentioning those that are enslaved, etc. throughout the world today......is/was anyone 'crying and whining' to help them? Was/Is it condemned as much as the US is being condemned for the "detainee" issues at Gitmo? This could go on, but yes ECK, the issue needs to be resolved....


regards
seekerof

Yes, thankfully we've begun to release some of them who have been deemed not useful or guilty of being a terrorist. I'm glad to hear that. I just hope we continue to do what's right.

Let me just add, that if some of them are found to be guilty of being terrorists or war criminals, than they should be punished accordingly. I do not shy away from people being held responsible for their acts. We should just handle it as fairly as possible. Hell, a little evenhandedness and diplomacy would not be a bad thing right about now.

Sure they should get a fair trial...and they will. Well a trial anyway. That's why they are at Gitmo in the first place. The base is US held territory in a foreign country i.e. the prisoners are NOT entitled to the rights they would be permitted were they actually on US soil. My theory: the terrorists and supposed terror suspects will be held at Gitmo untill such time as A. the US government collects enough evidence, both hard and circumstantial, to hold a trial and convict, or B. the US government fabricates and connects imagined dots to produce enough evidence. They will then be tried in a war crimes tribunal, convicted and flaunted by the US government as a tribute of how fair and just they are and oh so much more pious than our enemies who stone each other to death for adultry....

sorry, starting to rant...

Good posts ECK, and I agree 100%.

If it's under the US law, then there should be a fair trial for all the detainees. Also, if these detainees are under United Nations International Law, there would also be a fair trial for all detainees, also.

Well its apparent that I need to re-post this information again:

"The ultimate reason to have legal rules defining combatant status is not simply to ensure that the right of combatants to employ vicarious violence is respected, but simultaneously to ensure, as far as possible, that such violence is not directed against civilians. The essence of combatant status is to be liable, at any time, to deliberate attack. The essence of civilian status is to be immune from deliberate attack. Any legal norm that expands the rights of civilians to function as combatants is certain to erode that basic immunity. In legal terms, what is good for the guerilla must inevitably be bad for the civil society within which he hides. To suppose otherwise is to imagine the legal equivalent of a perpetual motion machine, which seeks to draw a circle that cannot be closed, but must inevitably spiral in upon itself. A terrorist or other "illegal combatant" who trades upon his adversary's respect for the law is, in effect, using the law as a weapon. He cannot simultaneously use it as a shield, and he may well deprive those around him of its aegis as well."
"Illegal Combatants" and the Law of Armed Conflict'
Link:
www.ccc.nps.navy.mil...


"In February of this year, President Bush determined the posi-tion of the United States concerning at least some of thesequestions. In essence, as announced by the White HousePress Secretary on February 7, 2002, he decided that(1) The 1949 Geneva Convention concerning the treatmentof prisoners of war, to which both Afghanistan and theUnited States are Parties, applies to the armed conflict inAfghanistan between the Taliban and the United States;(2) That same Convention does not apply to the armed con-flict in Afghanistan and elsewhere between al Qaeda and theUnited States;(3) Neither captured Taliban personnel nor captured alQaeda personnel are entitled to be POWs under that Conven-tion; and(4) Nevertheless, all captured Taliban and al Qaeda person-nel are to be treated humanely, consistent with the generalprinciples of the Convention, and delegates of the Interna-tional Committee of the Red Cross may visit privately each detainee."
"The Taliban, al Qaeda, and the Determination of Illegal Combatants"
Link:
216.239.39.104...:xGc5a3zM6FUJ:www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/0/C82A7582AE20DCD1C1256D34004AEA41/%24File/George%2BAldrich_3 _final.pdf%3FOpenElement+illegal+combatants&hl=en&ie=UTF-8


"Illegal Combatants
The Issue: Supreme Court agrees to examine Guantanamo jurisdiction. Our View: This could lead to further constitutional review."
Link:
www.myinky.com...


"Illegal combatant"
Link:
en.wikipedia.org...

"Guantanamo Bay"
Link:
en2.wikipedia.org...

Excerpt:
"The peculiar legal status of Guantanamo Bay aids in these uses. Because sovereignty of Guantanamo Bay ultimately resides with Cuba, persons detained at Guantanamo are legally outside of the United States and do not have the Constitutional rights that they would have if they were held on United States territory (see Cuban American Bar azz'n, Inc. v. Christopher, 43 F.3d 1412 (11th Cir. 1995)). The U.S. has classified the prisoners held at Camp X-Ray as illegal combatants rather than prisoners of war, which would also have given them protection through the Geneva Conventions."

Post number: 270440, from the thread: "War Crimes" at Gitmo"

The "key" to this whole thing is the situation of Gitmo and the classification of the "detainees".


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 3-12-2003 by Seekerof]

When charged, a prisoner will be assigned a uniformed military defence lawyer. The prisoners have a theoretical right to a civilian lawyer, but the US has placed financial and bureaucratic obstacles in the way of this.

Well, that does not sound to fair.
I think they deserve to be treated as Humans.
Thier fighting for what they believe is right, even if it may sound disgusting to some here in the west.
Americans are regarded as Disgusting in the east.
Deep

Treated as "humans" meaning?
They are feed, housed, have access to medical care, those of Arab decent are allowed to pray and somewhat practice their religion, they are clothed, sleep in beds/cots, they have blanks, clothes are washed, are given activity periods, etc.....

Besides TV and a radio or cell phone or access to a computer or telephone or family, etc.....they are recieving almost the same treatment as a prisoner/felone in the US.


"They are fighting for what they believe is right"......
Yes, they are, so where the Germans, Russians, British, the Americans, etc., etc.

"Americans are regarded as Disgusting in the east."
Hey Deep....we aren't eating dogs and cats or monkey brains yet.
That also seems to be the common sentiment that has been used quite alot here recently....
The US is regarded as.....by the Europe, by the East.....
Facts are that the US pisses alot of folks off.....and guess what? The world will eventually get over it, won't they?
How many millions considered Germans at the end of WWII as scum of the earth? Or the Japanese? Etc.? Seems that the "past is the past"...just like Iraq will become.


regards
seekerof

Seeker: "Facts are that the US pisses alot of folks off.....and guess what? The world will eventually get over it, won't they?"

It's exactly that type of attitude that brought about 9-11.

The world won't "get over it". U.S. State Sponsored Terrorism has killed millions over the years. Yes, MILLIONS. Overthrowing democratic governments (Iran, Chile, etc) and then cawing that you are Defenders of Democracy makes people think that you're idiots, and dangerous idiots.

And based on your current Administration's actions, that's pretty dead-on.


j