American Football: The Niner's you don't know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've all heard about Joe and Steve. Jerry and Dwight. Teams and Superbowl teams are built on more than that. Just ask Peyton. Some unsung heros:

John Taylor, he MADE Rice. Great speed and hands. You can't focus on both.

Mike Cofer, just kidding.

Pierce Holt and Kevin Fagen. DE's that exceeded their potential in SF. Pieces of the puzzle.

You need O linemen too. Jessie Supulo, Guy McIntyre

Brent Jones was just solid at TE. No awards, he just did his job. Good hands too.

Ronnie Lott, self explanitory. He played at a different level. It limited the years he played imo. HEAVY HITTER!

Tom Rathman was a good RB. He blocked well and his hands were good. May Craig die an ignoble death. His fumble LATE in the 4th quarter of the 1990 NFC championship cost the Niners the 3 PEAT. Ah, I'm glad I got that out of my system.

Ray Wersching desreves notice. Kevin Fagan as well.

There were rent-a-players as well. Neon Deion, Ken Norton, Matt Millen etc.

Am I missing anyone?

How about your team?

From your list, I especially remember Rathman, Jones and Kenny Norton, Jr.

I always hated Joe Montana until he would up in KC, then I learned to appreciate watching IMHO, the best (or second?) ever QB. YOu guys had a knach for knocking us out of the playoffs, and I didn't like that, for some unknown reason...

Manley and Mann were the dudes that got me into the 'skins. There's also Grimm, Jacoby, Bostic, May, heck, all of the original "Hogs"

I just found this site to stroll down memory lane...

The History of the Hogs - LINK

John Taylor made Jerry Rice? Huh?? Taylor had a few good seasons, but Rice was already great (22 TD receptions in 12 games in 1987) and he continued to be great after Taylor was gone.

Just so you know, Roger Craig lost that fumble in the 1990 NFC title game.

Another "rent-a-player" for SF was Wendell Tyler, who had 1262 yards rushing in the 1984 season. Also Charlie Garner, who had back to back 1000 yard seasons in 1999 and 2000.

For my team, the Eagles, I think of Byron Evans, their middle linebacker in the 1990's, Mike Pitts, a solid defensive lineman, Brian Mitchell, a great return man, and Herschel Walker, who had a few good years toward the end of his career.

As a Niners fan truenorth must remember all the talent SF had in the secondary. Ronnie Lott, Dwight Hicks, Carlton Williamson, Eric Wright, Tim McKyer, Don Griffin, Jeff Fuller, Tim McDonald, Eric Davis, and Merton Hanks. In 1984 all four defensive backs made the Pro Bowl.

The biggest luck the Niners had was in getting quarterbacks. First they get Montana in the third round. Then they trade for Steve Young for a couple of low draft picks. Then they get Jeff Garcia at the age of 29 when he didn't seem to be worth anything. Basically 23 straight seasons of quality NFL quarterbacks. That luck seems to have run out, though.

TRUE NORTH:

Boy, do I agree with you about Roger Craig and that fumble! How in the world could he do that, at THAT point? If he'd fallen on the ball 3 times, they'd have been all but home. A vastly worse gaffe than Buckner's blunder--which was no worse than, if as bad as, the wild pitch which preceded it--yet you never hear about that fumble among the colossal blunders in sports history.

If it doesn't belong on that list, it's hard to imagine what does.

BHN

That was a gaffe, but I don't think Steve Young (who was in for an injured Joe Montana) could have taken the knee three times. There was too much time to do that; they needed a first down. I believe it was LT who stripped the ball and then the Giants were able to drive for Matt Bahr's game-winning field goal.

That would have been one crazy Super Bowl that year if SF had made it. Think of it, playing Buffalo for the title. Oh, and with Young at QB, too.

[Edited on 7/13/06 by BirdstheBest]

Originally posted by BirdstheBest
John Taylor made Jerry Rice? Huh?? Taylor had a few good seasons, but Rice was already great (22 TD receptions in 12 games in 1987) and he continued to be great after Taylor was gone.

You'll get GREAT disagreement here. Taylor was not quite as fast as Rice BUT he was bigger and stronger and he had the hands. He would have been the "go to" guy on any other team.

Just so you know, Roger Craig lost that fumble in the 1990 NFC title game.

Isn't that what I said?

Another "rent-a-player" for SF was Wendell Tyler, who had 1262 yards rushing in the 1984 season. Also Charlie Garner, who had back to back 1000 yard seasons in 1999 and 2000.

I'm talking about those that were there over the long haul. Thus your next post.

Originally posted by BirdstheBest
As a Niners fan truenorth must remember all the talent SF had in the secondary. Ronnie Lott, Dwight Hicks, Carlton Williamson, Eric Wright, Tim McKyer, Don Griffin, Jeff Fuller, Tim McDonald, Eric Davis, and Merton Hanks. In 1984 all four defensive backs made the Pro Bowl.

D'oh. I'm doing this from memory. Griffen and McKyer are the biggest oops' I made here. MacDonald, Davis and Hanks were towards the end. Not quite what I was talking about.

Originally posted by BirdstheBest


That would have been one crazy Super Bowl that year if SF had made it. Think of it, playing Buffalo for the title. Oh, and with Young at QB, too.

[Edited on 7/13/06 by BirdstheBest]

A blow out. It would have been better for Scott Norwood had he faced the Niners. "Wide right" wouldn't have come into play.

I agree with this. It would have been like the Dolphins-Niners Super Bowl, where one dazzling offense piled up lots of points, but the other one got shut down, once necessary defensive adjustments were made.

BHN

Originally posted by BaseballHistoryNut
I agree with this. It would have been like the Dolphins-Niners Super Bowl, where one dazzling offense piled up lots of points, but the other one got shut down, once necessary defensive adjustments were made.

BHN

I am gonna play devils advocate here.

Are you guys saying that the Giants offense was inept? Or was the Bills D good enough to shut the Giants down, but not good enough to shut the niners down?

Originally posted by BirdstheBest
For my team, the Eagles, I think of ... Brian Mitchell, a great return man, and ...

WHOA!

Now wait just one GD minute here son, as a Redskins fan, you're lucky I don't hop on I81 south and track your Harrisburg arse down for that statement.

Yeah, he had some good years left in him while he played for the Eagles. But the team where he started his career, the team that put him in the HOF, the team who's jersey he'll wear in the Hall, is
NOT the Beagles.

Don't you remember that Monday night game around 15 years ago, when the Eagles D knocked out the 3 quarterbacks that the Redskins had on the roster, and they turned to Mitchell as the emergency QB? He's been a hero of mine ever since, even when he wore that puke green jersey.

Originally posted by truenorth

Originally posted by BirdstheBest
John Taylor made Jerry Rice? Huh?? Taylor had a few good seasons, but Rice was already great (22 TD receptions in 12 games in 1987) and he continued to be great after Taylor was gone.

You'll get GREAT disagreement here. Taylor was not quite as fast as Rice BUT he was bigger and stronger and he had the hands. He would have been the "go to" guy on any other team.

Maybe you're thinking of someone else. According to pro-football-reference.com, Rice was 6'2", 200 lb and Taylor was 6'1", 185 lb. He was more of a deep threat than Rice. There is no way that he "made" Rice, though. In 1987, Taylor's rookie season, Rice had 22 TD catches in only 12 games. Taylor had nine receptions all year. Taylor really only had four good seasons: 1989-91, 1993. Rice had great seasons before and after Taylor's good seasons.

Just so you know, Roger Craig lost that fumble in the 1990 NFC title game.

Isn't that what I said?

Sorry about that. I misread what you had written. I apologize.

Another "rent-a-player" for SF was Wendell Tyler, who had 1262 yards rushing in the 1984 season. Also Charlie Garner, who had back to back 1000 yard seasons in 1999 and 2000.

I'm talking about those that were there over the long haul. Thus your next post.

Deion Sanders was only there one season and Matt Millen was only there two seasons.

Originally posted by Gibbs Baby!!!

Originally posted by BaseballHistoryNut
I agree with this. It would have been like the Dolphins-Niners Super Bowl, where one dazzling offense piled up lots of points, but the other one got shut down, once necessary defensive adjustments were made.

BHN

I am gonna play devils advocate here.

Are you guys saying that the Giants offense was inept? Or was the Bills D good enough to shut the Giants down, but not good enough to shut the niners down?

There's a fine line between playing the Devil's advocate and being Bozo's advocate, my friend.

Bill Parcells wouldn't claim for a second that his team's offense that year was within a light year of the Niners'. His team won on defense--great, bruising, penetrating, punishing defense. Their offense was like that of the Baltimore and Tampa Bay teams that won the Super Bowl, or a little bit better. I mean, HOW MANY points did they score in two matchups with the Niners? And nobody ever claimed that Niner team was any great defensive club.

So yeah, the Niner team was THAT much better offensively than the Giants team, and would have lit up that Bills team like crazy. But I don't think it would have been like the famous 41-38 double-OT Miami-San Diego game from January of 1982. I think it would have been more like the Miami-SF Super Bowl from January of 1985, where two great offenses showed up, but only one defense. And the score would have been at least as bad as the Miami-SF Super Bowl, if not the San Diego-SF Super Bowl. (No, not the Denver-SF one; that will never happen again, I hope. Just imagine if the Niners had felt malicious in the second half that day.)

BHN

Originally posted by BirdstheBest
Maybe you're thinking of someone else. According to pro-football-reference.com, Rice was 6'2", 200 lb and Taylor was 6'1", 185 lb. He was more of a deep threat than Rice. There is no way that he "made" Rice, though. In 1987, Taylor's rookie season, Rice had 22 TD catches in only 12 games. Taylor had nine receptions all year. Taylor really only had four good seasons: 1989-91, 1993. Rice had great seasons before and after Taylor's good seasons.

Nope, it's Taylor. See here's the problem with getting info out of a book, it doesn't tell you everything. Rice was a gazelle, he'd outrun you. Taylor was a buck. If he couldn't outrun you he'd put his shoulder into you. Taylor was a bigger man, stronger too. I've tried to find a photo of them side by side but couldn't. You can't gauge a carreer from what you get from a book. I will give you the fact that he didn't make Rice BUT with his presence, he made him better. Google John Taylor and see what you get.

And on that note, while doing that I came up with a couple of more guys I can't believe I forgot. Harris Barton and Charles Haley.

Here's the stats on Jerry Rice's best seasons:

1986: 86 rec, 1570 yards, 15 TD catches
1987: 65 rec, 1078 yards, 22 TD catches
1989: 82 rec, 1483 yards, 17 TD catches
1990: 100 rec, 1502 yards, 13 TD catches
1993: 98 rec, 1503 yards, 15 TD catches
1994: 112 rec, 1499 yards, 13 TD catches
1995: 122 rec, 1848 yards, 15 TD catches

Here are Taylor's stats from those same seasons:

1986: still in college
1987: 9 rec, 151 yards, 0 TD catches
1989: 60 rec, 1077 yards, 10 TD catches
1990: 49 rec, 748 yards, 7 TD catches
1993: 56 rec, 940 yards, 5 TD catches
1994: 41 rec, 532 yards, 5 TD catches
1995: 29 rec, 387 yards, 2 TD catches

As you can see, Taylor was only a major factor for two of Rice's best seasons. He wasn't even in the NFL for one of them. He saw little action in 1987, and in 1994 and 1995 (his last two seasons), he hace only 70 receptions, 919 yards, and 7 TD total. Taylor had a few good years, but the reality is that Rice's excellence made Taylor good, not the other way around.

I think San Francisco-Buffalo would have been a close game, but higher scoring than the Giants-Bills game was. The Niners were not as strong overall offensively that season than they were in 1989. The running game was not as effective that year, and Montana--while still good--was not as efficient. Their defense was not as good as the Giants, although it was better than many gave credit.

My view is that the Niners would have won something like 27-24 and that the deciding factor would have been Steve Young. His mobility and big arm would have surpised the Bills.

Well, one of the reasons the Niners were so "strong" in the previous Super Bowl was that Denver's LB's and DB's played the same pass coverage on every play. There was a long article about it afterward on SI, and about how the offensive coordinator explained all of it to Montana. Montana: "They do this on EVERY play?" Offensive Coordinator: "On every play." Montana: "I can't wait."

But since the Giants, with their stop-the-world defense and minimal offense, were able to score as much as they did on that Buffalo team, I have to believe the Niners would have lit them up. Maybe I'm wrong. God knows the Niners sure couldn't score on the Giants. What'd they get on them that year? Twenty points total, in two games?

Oh, well. That idiot Roger Craig, along with their out-of-steam defense, rendered it all moot in the final 3 minutes. It's been over 15 years and I still can't believe they lost that game.

BHN

This is my 300th post!!!

San Francisco always was good at recognizing weaknesses in opponents' defenses and then exploiting them. I still think that coaching job Bill Walsh and the team did for Super Bowl XIX against Miami was the best ever.

I just want to say the N.Y. Giants were in no way slouches on offense in 1990. They were #8 in the NFL in rushing offense, and although they were only #23 in passing, they were efficient (passing offense is based on total yards). Phil Simms was the top ranked passer in the NFC that season, and after he went down with an injury in Week 14, Jeff Hostetler filled in nicely, adding the extra element of mobility.

San Francisco just wasn't as good offensively in 1990 as they were in 1989. Montana's passer rating was down 20 points after his record-setting 112.4 in '89. The rushing offense dropped from #10 in '89 to #18 in '90. Most of all, though, their points scored fell from 442 in 1989 to only 353 in 1990. Think of this; in the '89 playoffs the 49ers outscored their three opponents 41-13, 30-3, and 55-10. That's 126-26: a 100-point margin!!!. They just weren't as good in 1990.

How much did they win their first playoff game by that year, before Craig's fumble lost the NFC title game for them?