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American Football: Best runner ever

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posted on Apr, 15 2006 @ 07:41 PM
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Nobody mentions Sayers for the same reason nobody but me mentioned Campbell, and for the reason I was careful to specify that I was only taking Campbell in terms of "peak value." Even then, it was in the context of being asked who the best pure runner was, without regard to blocking ability, pass receiving ability, trick-passing ability, etc. And, as I said, for 2 or 3 years there, Campbell was for sure the best RB I ever saw--not close, no doubt about it, etc.

But I never saw Gale Sayers. I have heard several people say the same thing about HIM... for the first two or three years of his career. He sounds like the Pete Reiser or Tony Conigliaro of football (ohhh, what might have been....). Since these people include a LOT of great football players in their own right(s) (?), I figure they know what they're talking about.

BHN




posted on Apr, 15 2006 @ 10:59 PM
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I just realized that I forgot about Bo Jackson. I would never call him the best ever because his career was so short, and in those seasons he did play, he usually only played 10 or 11 games in a season. Longevity is part of greatness. But for that bried time, he was astounding. His 5.4 yards per carry is so impressive. I think that he was the best power/speed combination the league has ever seen. An amazing athlete, for sure.



posted on Apr, 15 2006 @ 11:03 PM
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I only watched Bo in Baseball... same for Deion, so I never really got a chance to see just how good both were in football.



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 02:22 PM
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Bo in baseball was the most overrated player since Clemente, and the most overHYPED player of all time. A player whose stats are really lame.

But he was a hell of a running back.

TELL ME: Am I imagining this, or isn't he the only guy in NFL history with two runs of over 90 yards? Or is he the only guy to do it twice in the same game? I know he holds one of those records, unless it's been broken since.

And who could forget his smashing THROUGH that puke Brian Bosworth?



BHN



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 10:48 PM
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BHN, your memory serves you well. Jackson is the only player to have two touchdown runs of 90+ yards in his career. Now Herschel Walker is the only player to have a 90 yard run, and 90 yard reception, and a 90 yard return all in the same season (1994 with Philadelphia).

I'l be the first to admit that Bo Jackson was overrated in baseball. He was an amazing athlete, though. He had impressive power (who can forget that homer in the 1989 All-Star Game?), blinding speed, and an incredible arm. That highlight of his gunning down Harold Reynolds with a throw on the fly from the warning track is just sick; that has to be one of the all-time greatest throws.



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 11:38 PM
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I think the visual highlight, for me, was his running up and down the side of the left field wall. Absolutely unbelievable. It happened over a quarter of a century after my final flirtation with Timothy Leary's famed substance, but as I sat and watched that play and the endless reruns of it, I wondered if....

BHN



posted on Apr, 17 2006 @ 02:33 PM
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So, the best runner of all time is Jim Brown. He ran over everybody, and had no peers during his career. He managed 9 seasons in the NFL for his career, and went out on top.

Adn then he bacame a movie star, and went to work helping the less fortunate. So he tops out DICKerson on that...



posted on Apr, 17 2006 @ 02:49 PM
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As I stated earlier in this thread, Jim Brown was like Wilt Chamberlain in that he was just physically bigger than (almost) everyone else. He outweighed all the defensive backs, most of the linebackers, and some of the defensive linemen. I'll agree that he was talented, but how much of that talent did we see? He played at 225-230 pounds during his career, which still is pretty solid in this NFL, but that is no longer really big. There are wide receivers and quarterbacks bigger than that now.


Oh, and while Brown seems to hold up a good cause sometimes, he was also an abusive man who did jail time for busting up a woman's car. He chose to go to prison rather than doing probation because he refused to go to anger management. I don't think Dickerson ever did that.



posted on Apr, 17 2006 @ 02:54 PM
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Like those that choose to ignore the obvious implications of Mr. Bonds, I'm ignoring what happened with Jim. Actually, I jus tforgot about that. He has done a lot for the community, though, if memory serves me.

The same as I wouldn't hold Chamberlain's physical gifts against him I won't do that for Brown. They were bigger, to be sure, but they were better players, and more focused than most of their contemporaries.



posted on Apr, 17 2006 @ 06:07 PM
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Actually, a thorough search will reveal Brown has a long, much of it godawful history of violence against women. And that, to me, is a LOT more serious than violating drug laws or just about any other crime, short of homicides, attempted homicides or crimes against children.

But it's not cheating and I don't think it's relevant to how good a running back he legitimately was.

BHN



posted on Apr, 18 2006 @ 03:37 PM
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Originally posted by BaseballHistoryNut
Actually, a thorough search will reveal Brown has a long, much of it godawful history of violence against women. And that, to me, is a LOT more serious than violating drug laws or just about any other crime, short of homicides, attempted homicides or crimes against children.

BHN


I did not know that, I have only heard of one or two incidents, and since I am not the biggest fan, I never paid too close of attention to it. Apologies to anyone offended.



posted on Apr, 18 2006 @ 05:07 PM
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It's not really a fair comparison, that was the 60's, before Black's and women's rights were effectively put forth. Did you know that Terry Sawchuck, revered Leafs goaltender was an abusive, alcoholic father and husband? That was a different time. And no, I don't think that it matters when it comes to determining a persons place in sport, it was a different time.



posted on Apr, 18 2006 @ 05:22 PM
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Wait a minute. Are you saying that just because blacks' and women's rights in the 1960's were not what they are today that we should excuse abusive behavior?



posted on Apr, 18 2006 @ 05:44 PM
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Jim Brown once threw a woman off a second story balcony. That was ALWAYS either assault with the intent to commit great bodily injury (a felony, in California) or attempted murder (obviously a major felony anywhere), depending on what was down below and how far down it was.

If he used hateful TERMS in talking about women, or g@ys, or whatever, then I agree his conduct must be measured by the standards of his time. My maternal grandmother, born in 1894, played a major role in raising me, and I never held her racism against her because what white American was born in 1894 and wasn't racist? And what American male was born when I was (1953) and wasn't h0m0phobic after hearing a billion qu@@r jokes in school? I got over them; many millions haven't.

But hateful ideas and words are one thing; violent criminal conduct related to those ideas are entirely another. My grandmother never belonged to the KKK or any other group which advocated racial genocide, hanged black men who slept with white women, burned black families' homes to the ground, etc. If she'd done that, then even though she was in effect one of my two parents, I'd have had a hard time forgiving it.

Same story with Brown. I know he's done a lot of good for young black men, and I applaud him for that, but it's hardly an excuse for his vile, vicious and VIOLENT words AND BEHAVIOR toward women.

BHN



posted on Apr, 18 2006 @ 07:50 PM
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OK. I found a detailed summary of all the charges of violence made over the years against Jim Brown. Now, the obvious response to be made in his defense is that he was never found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt by any jury of any of these things.

But so what? That standard is generally considered, by legal scholars, to be one of about 95% proof. They'll never tell you that if you're on a jury, of course, but 95% satisfaction is about what jurors are supposed to have to convict. And anyway, even if 100% proof existed, many of Brown's accusers seem to have been persuaded to drop or alter their charges.

Now, mind y'all, this even comes from ESPN, which is a good 3 decades behind the times on women's issues. The night Charlotte Smith hit THE most exciting shot in the history of NCAA basketball--a do-or-die shot, with the clock expiring as the ball was in the air, and unlike Laettner's famed and thrilling shot for the regional final against Kentucky, THIS was for the whole thing, the national title, against Louisiana Tech--ESPN gave viewers 20 minutes of NBA, NHL and preseason baseball before reporting Smith's shot for about 30 seconds.

Needless to say, if that had been a men's NCAA-championship-winning-do-or-die shot in 1994, it would have eaten the first 10 minutes of SportsCenter and we'd be seeing it 20 times every March, for the rest of our lives. And if you didn't know the name Charlotte Smith until now, don't be embarrassed. Neither does almost any other sports fan, including all the hetero female sports fans I know.

I saw the shot live, and I can tell you it rivals the 1980 hockey win, Secretariat's zillion-length win in the Belmont, and Maz's HR in the bottom of the 9th inning of Game 7 in 1960, as the most exciting, tear-inducing, emotionally overwhelming sport moment I've ever witnessed.

Anyway, ESPN is hardly a bastion of feminism and progress for issues of how sports affect women. But in their SportsCentury article on Brown, who was their #4 SportsFigure of the century, they filed this report on Brown's record with women:

"But for all of Brown's good deeds [on behalf of young black men] and athletic prowess, there has been a dark side to him, too. He was frequently accused of violent crimes, primarily toward women, and though he was found not guilty [WRONG; usually the charges were dismissed--see below], they have hurt his image.

"An 18-year-old accused Brown of forcing her to have sex after giving her whisky, but a jury found him innocent [WRONG; they found the state had not proven guilt beyond a reasonable doubt] in the 10-day trial in 1965. He was accused of throwing a model from a balcony in 1968, but when the 22-year-old woman refused to name Brown as her assailant, the charge of assault with intent to murder was dropped.

"He was acquitted of assaulting a man after a traffic accident in 1969. He was fined $500 and spent a day in jail after beating up a golfing partner. He was charged with rape, sexual battery and assault in 1985, but the charges were dropped when the 33-year-old woman gave inconsistent testimony. The next year, he was arrested for allegedly beating his fiancee after accusing her of flirting. He spent three hours in jail, but three days later the 21-year-old woman said she didn't want to prosecute.

"In 1999, Brown was convicted in Los Angeles of smashing the window of his 25-year-old wife Monique's car, but was acquitted of making terrorist threats [in California, that means a threat to inflict death or great bodily injury, and it's a "strike" offense] against her."

All together now, how many of you believe one guy, even one famous football player, could be WRONGFULLY accused of so many horrible crimes against women over the years? I'm not aware of any other sports star who's been charged nearly that often for such things, including guys like Mike Tyson who probably would stand no chance in court if the alleged victims went through with their charges, and who would, 10 or 15 years ago, have been a much more lucrative target for false charges.

Jim Brown is either the unluckiest sports superstar of all time, having been hit with all sorts of terrible false charges of unrelated acts of violence against wholly unrelated people through the years, or the obvious conclusion is the correct one. I vote for Choice B.

Now, to be clear: I do NOT believe these atrocities should have any effect on Brown's Hall of Fame membership, nor on his status among the greatest running backs ever, nor his status among the greatest sportsfigures of the 20th Century. None. Same story as Ty Cobb, and if Brown hates that comparison, he can take solace in the knowledge that Cobb would have hated it, too.

But as a human being, or as one of the great people in sports history? Well, as far as I'm concerned, Brown can take all of his work with troubled inner-city boys and young men, and put it where the sun won't hit it. Not only is Brown light years from Roberto Clemente or Lou Gehrig (who spent his last two years doing what he could to help get research started against the dread disease he knew would kill him), he's also light years from all the athletes who've had basic human decency.

And, in a toast to my friend YeahRight, we've heard a few thousand times about the most grievous sins of Robert Knight, but now I've learned from Y.R. about unreported great deeds of "The General." And I'm a lot more impressed with him than I am with the man I consider the greatest running back in NFL history.

BHN

[Edited on 4/18/06 by BaseballHistoryNut]



posted on Apr, 19 2006 @ 01:23 AM
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I did not know that, I have only heard of one or two incidents, and since I am not the biggest fan, I never paid too close of attention to it. Apologies to anyone offended.


Dear friend Gibbs Baby!!!!,

I hope this was already understood and went without saying, but in case it wasn't and didn't:

I did NOT intend for anything--as in one single word--of my detailed post about Brown-the-Beast to sound like a chastisement of you. The long, detailed account of his zillion alleged felonies against women--which, when you add them up, pretty much come out to "where there's smoke..."--was in NO way intended as a lecture to you, and I can only hope now, after I failed to make this point clear at the time, that you understood that much all along. (Knowing what I do of you, I believe and hope that if you thought I was publicly lecturing you, you would have sent me a heated U2U to find out for sure, then responded heatedly in public if it was so.)

If I didn't make that clear enough, and if you felt like I was whaling on you for your ostensible insensitivity several posts back, please (1) rest assured that wasn't the case, and (2) accept my apologies for not having made it clear.

NOW: About my Manute Bol post:

The dude WAS the greatest minute-for-minute shot blocker of all time, and that's stone cold FACT, whether you like it or not.

BUT:

In retrospect, I suppose nominating him for the greatest NBA player of all time may have shown a certain lack of perspective--um, make that comprehension of basketball--um, make that seriousness--um, make that rationality--um, make that sanity.

So, how long do YOU think I should be barred from making NBA posts? As long as it's not a cruelly and unusually long time (see the 8th Amendment), I'll serve the punishment you want to mete out for my egregiously excessive praise of the only guy whose signed NBA card I own.

BHN



posted on Apr, 19 2006 @ 08:04 AM
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Originally posted by BaseballHistoryNut

And, in a toast to my friend YeahRight, we've heard a few thousand times about the most grievous sins of Robert Knight, but now I've learned from Y.R. about unreported great deeds of "The General." And I'm a lot more impressed with him than I am with the man I consider the greatest running back in NFL history.

BHN


Changing minds, one person at a time. :party-smiley-018:

(I know Knight doesn't give a flyin' flip what people think about him. But it's tough to build a case for why so many people revere him without pointing out a few things not commonly known. Sorry Bob, you're not the ogre you sometimes portray.)



posted on Apr, 19 2006 @ 02:20 PM
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What I love about this site is that it provides entertainment and education at the same time. BHN, thanks for the background on Borwn, as I said, I wouldn't have had the time to check that out here. And no, I wasn't thinking in the slightest that you were lecturing me, or even providing the informatin just for me, that would be coming via u2u. Hopefully others who don't know about Brown's backgroudn can find this as they search the web, and find out the truth about the guy.

As for the NBA threads...

Post all you want, we'll make more. I was certain the cracking dryness of the posts was coming through. It's almost as dry as it is here in Pennsylvania, and we're under a drought watch...



posted on Apr, 19 2006 @ 04:44 PM
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Jeez, and I was certain the dryness of my "banishment" humor was coming through....



posted on Apr, 20 2006 @ 02:00 PM
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I choking up over here.



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