American Football: Who is the greatest NFL player of All Time?

What about Pudge Heflinger [sp.?]?

Sam Huff of the New York football giants, throw in Frank Gifford from the same era....and my personal favorite, Y A Tittle.....

[Edited on 11/4/2005 by toejam]

Originally posted by Gibbs Baby!!!
Nagurski, great name from the past! Didn't he play for Illinois in college?

Actually, he played at Minnesota in college. My original post above has the words: The greatest Player of All Time in hypertext linking to -
www.bronkonagurski.com... but you can't tell what's hypertext in these posts without hovering over it. Or maybe I just did something wrong?

I love those old Giant teams from the '50-s & 60's. Sam Huff may be one of the more overrated players. That defense was designed to funnel everything into the middle so Huff ended up with some inflated stats. His legend grew after a tv special about him called "The Violent World of Sam Huff" was shown. He had a pretty good front 4 to play behind including Jim Katcavage, Andy Robustelli, & Rosey Grier.

Originally posted by yeahright

Actually, he played at Minnesota in college. My original post above has the words: The greatest Player of All Time in hypertext linking to -
www.bronkonagurski.com... but you can't tell what's hypertext in these posts without hovering over it. Or maybe I just did something wrong?

Thanks man. You did nothing wrong, that's just the way that links show up on here. It's one of the few complaints that I have about the site, I often throw links in posts that I don't know if people see or not.

Taking a note from the Trivia thread, here are my top 10 QB's. As a side note, I'm not old enough to remember most of these guys, but I think that the results speak for themselves.

10. Peyton Manning - Probably will be higher on the list by the end of his career, but championships are very important in my view. Tom Brady would easily fit into this spot for that reason, but I think that peyton has more of an upside on his career to come.

9. Joe Namath - His guarantee re-designed the league and the Super Bowl. The game would be vastly different without him.

8. Dan Marino - It's a shame that he never won the ig one, and in fact only got there once. The guy was amazing, and shattered records. If he would have had a great D to go along with him, the 'fins would have been unstoppable.

7. Slingin' Sammy Baugh - Speaking of changing the game. Sammy, the only Redskin represented on this list, he helped establish the
forward pass as an option to the run. It is hard to imagine what he would be like with the modern rules that favor passing.

6. Jim Kelly - What, no championship rings? Does it really matter? This guy led his team to the Super Bowl
4 years in a row! That is a feat that is likely to not be acheived again in my lifetime. And he was largely responsible for the success of the team, as he led them in the no-huddle offense, and he chose the majority of the plays they made. I think that he would be a great coach, and hope that he gets to those ransk soon.

5. Terry Bradshaw - the first man to lead his team to 4 Super Bowl victories. 2 Super Bowl MVP's. If only he woudl just close his yap on occasion Sunday afternoons, I might have put him higher on the list...

4. Brett Favre - The invincible one. Nothing keeps him from starting a game. Even in the twilight of his career, with the team falling apart around him, he continues to put the entire city of Green Bay on his shoulders, trying to once again lead them to Titleland. Unfortunately, the team isn't good enough for him to do that again before he retires.

3. John Elway - 6 Super Bowl appearences. 2 vcitories, and an MVP for one of those performances. And the team hasn't won a playoff game since he retired. Denver will not see the likes of him again for years to come.

2. Johnny Unitas - The QB that all other QB's are compared to. He was the driving force behind "the greatest game ever". He was actually cut by the Steelers, and I have heard the story af how Art Rooney felt bad about that particular business decision, and wished the kid a great career. Art got his wish.

1. Joe Montana - You could argue that he had a great team around him. You can say that he was a product of his system. But you can't take the 4 Super Bowl rings and 3 MVP honors from him. 31 fourth quarter comebacks don't lie. He had the confidence and the ability to back that up.

GIBBS:

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my misplaced post on the Trivia thread.

B.H.N.

BHN in a football history discussion? Just doesn't sound rightl.

I would go Jim Brown, but can see a argument on Jerry Rice.

DEAR HOOTIE,

Yeah, I know, but at least give me credit for not pretending to be nearly as authoritative with football. I mean, I do have some strong opinions about certain football players I've seen over the past 30 seasons, but it's only for the past 15 or so seasons that I've watched the game with any kind of intelligence. And I know, from reading some of the other chats, that I just don't see as much detail as football experts do when they watch a game.

As you know, however, my hubris knows no bounds when it comes to baseball. Did you read my comments in your support when on the subject of Pujols' winning the MVP over Jones? In my opinion, a real no-contest.

AND, MORE IMPORTANT....

Have you read my comments about taking a figurative meat cleaver to the feats of Dead Ball Era pitchers, given the precipitous decline of the Era's pitchers, including its superstar, Walter Johnson, as soon as the live ball came in, when he was still only 32? Ditto Pete Alexander, who was great in 1920, but had only one good year left in his remaining 10 seasons.

If you can find those comments, you then need to have read the circa 1988 Bill James book I allude to, and rely upon heavily, in my comments. I'd be interested in your thoughts and your response. But as far as I'm concerned, the rating of the all-time great pitchers should begin chronologically with Grove and Hubbell (no comparison between the two, obviously), and go forward from there.

James giant bible of player rankings, which is otherwise such a great piece of baseball literature, is really a joke in ranking Dead Ball specialists Johnson, Alexander and Young as three of the greatest four pitchers who have ever played. NOBODY I know would take that notion seroiusly, nor would they have taken it seriously before Clemens' last four seasons.

B.H.N.

HOOTIE,

P.S., It's under Lee Simins [sp?], Baseball Encyclopedia, or some heading like that.

And still no thanks for my spirited defense of you about Pujols as the clear-cut MVP over Jones?! Of course, it helps when one is inarguably right and has already displayed a mountain of stats to that effect. But ya gotta like the additional mountain I provided, no? IMHO, giving Jones the award this year would have been worse than Pendleton over Bonds, and would have taken us back to Baylor over Lynn for the most recent comparable screwing.

Please find, read and consider what I've said about largely ignoring Dead Ball pitchers, or at least not going insane and ranking Johnson, Alexander and Young as the #1, #3 and #4 greatest ever. Hey! If you don't agree, we can REALLY bicker up a storm.

B.H.N.

Originally posted by BaseballHistoryNut
HOOTIE,

P.S., It's under Lee Simins [sp?], Baseball Encyclopedia, or some heading like that.

And still no thanks for my spirited defense of you about Pujols as the clear-cut MVP over Jones?! Of course, it helps when one is inarguably right and has already displayed a mountain of stats to that effect. But ya gotta like the additional mountain I provided, no? IMHO, giving Jones the award this year would have been worse than Pendleton over Bonds, and would have taken us back to Baylor over Lynn for the most recent comparable screwing.

Please find, read and consider what I've said about largely ignoring Dead Ball pitchers, or at least not going insane and ranking Johnson, Alexander and Young as the #1, #3 and #4 greatest ever. Hey! If you don't agree, we can REALLY bicker up a storm.

B.H.N.

BHN. Nice job on Pujols. And i agree on deadball pitchers, although i think Johnson. Young still are top 10. Grove would be 1.

HOOTIE,

I am with you on Grove, and I have sung his praises until my fellow hardcore fans, but non-fanatics, are a bit tired of it. I never thought I'd even consider another pitcher for #1. But the time has come when, assuming there's no evidence of impropriety (and as far as I know, there isn't), you have to consider seriously the prospect of Clemens as #1. For about 3 years now, I have ranked Clemens as the #1 all-time right-handed pitcher.

I still have Grove at #1. But you gotta admit it won't take much more for Rocket to get there. Jeez Looeez.

And then there is Pedro. Pedro the incomparable. Pedro whose career Adjusted Era was once more than 50% better than any other pitcher ever, including Grove!!! Pedro, who has 3 Cy Youngs already, I believe, and obviously should have gotten the one some bigots and frauds voted to Zito. (Call it the Cy Young equivalent of Baylor's 1979 MVP, or the one Hank Sauer won eons ago.) Pedro, who has FOUR seasons with an adjusted ERA over 200!!!!! Pedro, the incomparable.

But Pedro needs several more years--not necessarily phenomenal or great, but at least good or very good years--before I can rate him ahead of Grove. Hell, I think he needs several more pretty damn good years before I'll put him ahead of Clemens. And if Clemens gets one more untainted monster year, you and I may have to consider dropping Grove from the #1 pitcher to the #1 southpaw. I know it sounds heretical--and, as reacently as 3 years ago, it would have sounded unthinkable to me--but it may become unavoidable.

B.H.N.

If Barry Sanders didn't go into an early retirement then it would defineitly be him.

Originally posted by BaseballHistoryNut
HOOTIE,

I am with you on Grove, and I have sung his praises until my fellow hardcore fans, but non-fanatics, are a bit tired of it. I never thought I'd even consider another pitcher for #1. But the time has come when, assuming there's no evidence of impropriety (and as far as I know, there isn't), you have to consider seriously the prospect of Clemens as #1. For about 3 years now, I have ranked Clemens as the #1 all-time right-handed pitcher.

I still have Grove at #1. But you gotta admit it won't take much more for Rocket to get there. Jeez Looeez.

And then there is Pedro. Pedro the incomparable. Pedro whose career Adjusted Era was once more than 50% better than any other pitcher ever, including Grove!!! Pedro, who has 3 Cy Youngs already, I believe, and obviously should have gotten the one some bigots and frauds voted to Zito. (Call it the Cy Young equivalent of Baylor's 1979 MVP, or the one Hank Sauer won eons ago.) Pedro, who has FOUR seasons with an adjusted ERA over 200!!!!! Pedro, the incomparable.

But Pedro needs several more years--not necessarily phenomenal or great, but at least good or very good years--before I can rate him ahead of Grove. Hell, I think he needs several more pretty damn good years before I'll put him ahead of Clemens. And if Clemens gets one more untainted monster year, you and I may have to consider dropping Grove from the #1 pitcher to the #1 southpaw. I know it sounds heretical--and, as reacently as 3 years ago, it would have sounded unthinkable to me--but it may become unavoidable.

B.H.N.

Isn't this a football post?


[Edited on 11/22/05 by timmyespo3]

timmeyspo3, I'd agree, but we can never really say. The same could be argued about Gale Sayers, too, but his career was cut drastically short, too...

EDIT -
BTW, thanks for getting us back on topic...



[Edited on 11/23/2005 by Gibbs Baby!!!]

Although I have "newbie" status, and essentially no "skill", "strenghth", or "knowledge" [howintheheck do you clear or change those things at the left?!? LOL!]....

.... I claim that nobody has successfully refuted or bested my first post: crowning Jerry Rice as "The Best Ever".

Look back at all the rationale for other nominees. They include these factors, in no particular order: impact, production, raw skill, endurance, team performance, championships, and attitude/intangibles. A leading candidate should be at or near the top in more than one of these. But com'on: Jerry Rice is at or near the top in EVERY ONE of those categories! When you think about it in those holistic terms, I don't think anybody equals him. [I admit it is hard (and fun) to compare different positions and eras.] Certainly nobody exceeds him - give me that much.

I consider myself only a (relatively) casual football fan, but that conclusion came to me a couple years ago, and has stuck.

A humble newbie at the mercy of the "rating" gods in Sportztawk,
3BCE

Originally posted by 3BCoachExtraordinaire
.... I claim that nobody has successfully refuted or bested my first post: crowning Jerry Rice as "The Best Ever".

Look back at all the rationale for other nominees. They include these factors, in no particular order: impact, production, raw skill, endurance, team performance, championships, and attitude/intangibles. A leading candidate should be at or near the top in more than one of these. But com'on: Jerry Rice is at or near the top in EVERY ONE of those categories! When you think about it in those holistic terms, I don't think anybody equals him. [I admit it is hard (and fun) to compare different positions and eras.] Certainly nobody exceeds him - give me that much.

Jerry overstayed his welcome, his skills were in decline the last 2-3 seasons. He bounced from team to team. Jim Brown left on the top. He stuck with one team.

As for championships, Brown was involved in a few, and won one. But the league was different on those days, some would say more competitive.

Not to take anything away from Jerry, he was great. Just not the greatest.

Originally posted by 3BCoachExtraordinaire

Although I have "newbie" status, and essentially no "skill", "strenghth", or "knowledge" [howintheheck do you clear or change those things at the left?!? LOL!]....

A humble newbie at the mercy of the "rating" gods in Sportztawk,
3BCE

Just keep on making posts, my man, and you will notice those catagories rising.

Allow me to direct you to a couple of threads on this topic -

www.sportztawk.com...

www.sportztawk.com...

Give me Brett Favre in Lambeau field against anybody when its bitterly freezing, He'll bring the W home everytime. No comparison!

Now there's a name from modern times that is worth mentioning in this discussion. Of course, I can refute your claim, rather, Vick can refute that claim...

I have to say that the greatest player would be Dan Marino.
He was flat out great.In his first season he threw for 2,000 some yards and about 20 TDS and was the first rookie to play in the pro bowl.He also had the Most yards in one season most TDS and most completions.But he still holds some records like first QB to pass 60,000 yards and has the most completions and Attempts ever.

Gibbs,

Really liked your top 10 QB's of all time. Especially that you keep Favre up there even after this dismal injury laden season.

However, any of you guys know who Bart Starr is? How about Ray Nitchke?




A nice site dedicated to Bart... Still Green Bays best QB of all time. In my humble opinion.
www.bartstarr.com...

By 1960, Starr led Green Bay to the Western Division championship, the first in a long run of successes for the Packers. Starr ended up playing for 15 years as a quarterback and rose to become one the greatest players the team has seen. He held several NFL passing records, including the lifetime record of completing 57.4 percent of his passes over a 16-year period. He led the league in passing three times. Starr used his astuteness and skill to lead the Packers to five NFL titles and two Super Bowl Championships. He was honored three times as Most Valuable Player- once as a Green Bay Packer MVP in 1966 and MVP of Super Bowls I and II. After his playing career ended, Starr remained with the team he built and took on the role of head coach from 1975 to 1983.