Any more questions from the peanut gallery? Ya gotta love it. As a COMBAT VETERAN I voice my opinion b/c I CARE about the troops and support using them CORRECTLY. Then I get grilled from people who don't know what the hell they're talking about. That's pretty fukken unreal.

East Coast,

why how old are you?

I am 43 years old.

waiting for your answer.....

NEO, I am 34 years old. I feel more like I'm 54, though, truth be told.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
By the way Dreamz, on Thanksgiving day 1990, I was serving in Operation Desert Storm. Where were you?

You want to school WHO?! YOU are the one who claimed to be in desert STORM in Nov. 1990 NOT US (look at YOUR quote above slick).

You know when a BULL#TER spews they are pretty easy to snare... YOU are in NO position to claim "using the troops correctly" based on what I read coming from your mind.

Originally posted by Springer

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
By the way Dreamz, on Thanksgiving day 1990, I was serving in Operation Desert Storm. Where were you?

You want to school WHO?! YOU are the one who claimed to be in desert STORM in Nov. 1990 NOT US (look at YOUR quote above slick).

You know when a BULL#TER spews they are pretty easy to snare... YOU are in NO position to claim "using the troops correctly" based on what I read coming from your mind.

Oops I made an error. Sue me. I clarified that in my further post. Guess you only see what you want to see.

EastCoast,

first of all despite your impressions,

I am not desiring a battle with you nor am I judging you nor do I desire to create any impression of you that you are not accepting of.

I do have a few questions though.

1. Since the US forces are voluntary (so far that is), why did you join?

2. What benefits, if any, did you obtain from your involvement in the forces?

3. What did you learn from your time in the forces?

4. Do you think that you have a negative overall view of your experience and if so why?

No, you are a typical Liberal smart ass... You tear people's heads off when they question your idiocy when YOU are incorrect.

I have never seen so many poeple who really HATE their country that continue to suck of its teet like I see here... Why don't you all go out to the Arabian desert and sleep with the enemy?!

Originally posted by Springer
No, you are a typical Liberal smart ass... You tear people's heads off when they question your idiocy when YOU are incorrect.

I have never seen so many poeple who really HATE their country that continue to suck of its teet like I see here... Why don't you all go out to the Arabian desert and sleep with the enemy?!

Springer you have funny way of looking at things. Imagine your son was a crack head and although you loved him you knew you had to stop the terrible position he was in. You do all you can to get him out of this madness, begging him to see sense and in return all you get is "# you, you don't love me. How could you when you hate everything I'm doing?".

I'm sure this is the way the people you are insulting feel about there country. They love it but they want it so bad to get out of this terrible situation it has got itself in. No matter how much you disagree with them, you should be glad they are at least out there, and are standing up for what they believe is right for the country they love so much. You shouldn't be implicating that they are traitors, just because you don't see it as being a problem when they do.
They do not love their country any less than you do just because they see it has a problem.

Originally posted by THENEO
EastCoast,

first of all despite your impressions,

I am not desiring a battle with you nor am I judging you nor do I desire to create any impression of you that you are not accepting of.

Neo, I have no desire to argue with you, either. And I would be glad to answer your questions. If it helps anyone understand my views, all the better.

I do have a few questions though.

1. Since the US forces are voluntary (so far that is), why did you join?

I've always been very patriotic. Contrary to what many people here assume, I have also always been a hawk on defense and have voted Republican since I could vote. (Big mistake in 2000.) The reasons I joined are many and varied. After quitting college out of high school from boredom and the desire to travel, I saw the military as being an excellent vehicle. Free travel, training, education, benefits. I wanted to live in Europe, also. Hell, even Korea sounded like an adventure.

2. What benefits, if any, did you obtain from your involvement in the forces?

The benefits I recieved are unending. We all know about the G.I. Bill and things of that nature, but I could never have imagined how beneficial in the long-term it would be in a multitude of ways. Influence, brotherhood and real-life and wartime experience are probably the most invaluable of benefits.

3. What did you learn from your time in the forces?

I learned first-hand what the people and life in the middle east are really like - it was the best political science class I ever had. I learned that flying is one of the most fun ways in the world to make a living. I learned confidence and how to face fear head on. I learned how to suck it up and drive on and never quit - no matter how the odds are stacked against you. I learned that every soldier has a story. I learned how political the Airborne is. I learned what it's really like in the belly of the beast that we call government. I learned that the military is a phenomenal success with regards to integration and racial equality. I learned that things can always get worse. I learned that a day does not pass that I do not think about my brothers and sisters in uniform. I learned how to be a self-starter and a leader. I learned that I will never stop learning from that experience.

4. Do you think that you have a negative overall view of your experience and if so why?

Absolutely not. My time in the military was the most profound experience I've ever had. I served with some of the finest men and women I have ever known and I am proud as hell to have been able to serve my country in peacetime and in war. My time in service has only bolstered my love for the United States and for the men and women who so bravely and selflessly serve. My hat is off to them eternally.

Originally posted by Springer
No, you are a typical Liberal smart ass... You tear people's heads off when they question your idiocy when YOU are incorrect.

I have never seen so many poeple who really HATE their country that continue to suck of its teet like I see here... Why don't you all go out to the Arabian desert and sleep with the enemy?!

Gotta cuss and name-call cause ya got no argument. Typical. Sounds like you're the one who needs some time out in the desert.

As an external observer, it may useful to point out that this thread has degenerated into personal references. On ATS we should talk about the outside world and not the people that frequent it.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Originally posted by Springer
No, you are a typical Liberal smart ass... You tear people's heads off when they question your idiocy when YOU are incorrect.

I have never seen so many poeple who really HATE their country that continue to suck of its teet like I see here... Why don't you all go out to the Arabian desert and sleep with the enemy?!

Gotta cuss and name-call cause ya got no argument. Typical. Sounds like you're the one who needs some time out in the desert.

Well coming from someone who KNOWS all, that should be taken as a compliment. You asked me were was I when the war started in 1990, I was in school...I believe 9th grade. Does my age take away from my knowledge of world affairs? Absolutely not. If you like to think that because you "served"(I wonder) in the 1st Gulf War that you have more supreme knowledge than anyone else, so-be-it. I do not break down into personal attacks and have not questioned your knowledge or opinions. The fact that you don't believe he was there after I pointed out specific sources is what amazes me.
If you truely are a vet of the 1st war, congrats, you served your country well. Does that mean I have not served my country or will not do so willingly in the future?No not at all.
Dont think because you served in the military that that entitles you to be 100% correct all the time. It doesnt, its just a life experiance that many others have not experianced. Your knowledge of your time there may also be a bit outdated since the war in 1991 vs 2003 are for entirely differant reasons.

Let me also point out the fact that in one of my earlier posts I stated that it would take approx. 7 hours to get from D.C to Iraq and you questioned if I had ever been there because you thought I was obviously incorrect. Yet the story I posted from Drudge specifically says the President left at 9:30am and landed in Iraq at 5:30pm. That is 8 hours, so I guess my guess was WAY off and you who have been there many times know the travel time more specifically. Kind of makes me wonder that you laughed at my 7 hour approx guess with the question of, "have you ever been to the mid-east?" When I was only a hour off.

Yes, I was in Saudi Arabia in November 1990 - which was OPERATION DESER SHIELD. I was stationed at KING FAHD INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT with the 101st AVIATION BRIGADE.
OPERATION DESERT STORM commenced in January 1991.
What else would you like to know?

Are you saying that President Bush's trip into Iraq could not be achieved EastCoastKid? Are all the military forces in that area notified of his upcoming arrival?
(I really doubt it) Other than your hate for President Bush tell me why this was not a good thing? President Bush has guts wheather he thought of it himself or not. Who really cares who thought of it? He was there.....he gave support to our troops...and that's all that matters. Again... I say Kudos to President Bush!

Originally posted by Dreamz
Anyone ever think he truely loves the American military and thought it would be a "good" thing to do for the troops in Iraq.

Everything is not PR. This president has taken some of the most dangerous trips in recent memory. The carrier landing and now this. I think he deserves credit for leaving his family to go spend time with troops who are fighting to free a repressed country.

Very well put. In addition, it was an extremely brave and dangerous thing to do. The anchors on CNN couldn't even deny that fact. I know it hurt them bad to give props to Bush... Oh I know it did!

Look people, this is the kind of stuff REAL presidents do. Presidents who believe in our nation's military and the people serving the country. Unlike our last leader who loathed the military, and made costly cut backs that 86'd many jobs which subsequently 86'd many American lives.

I think some of you need to snap out of it and realize that everything isn't a PR stunt, or some fabricated scenario.

Oh yeah...

So, Bush wasn't anywhere near Iraq, huh? Yeah buddy, I'd like to see 300+ people keep THAT secret. LOL

[Edited on 03-07-2003 by kramtronix]

There are two sides, two perspectives on why this trip was undertaken; so let's let the facts of the trip flavor our perspectives to see which debate points hold more water.

This is the picture presented by the Iraqi National Congress:Last spring, before the war, he was told by Ahmad Chalabi via Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz and Doug Feith, that the Iraqi people would welcome him this November with garlands and dancing in the street. They would regard him as the great liberator, a second Roosevelt or Truman. The US military, having easily defeated the Baath army and wiped up its remnants, would have departed. Only a US division, about 20,000 men, would remain, at a former Baath army base and out of sight of most Iraqis.
It was all over the news, or at least what is supposed to be "news" in this country. Hell, I remember several Right Wing pundits on "Crossfire" mouthing some variation of the exact same sentiment as a build up to war.
At that time, more than six months ago, is when this Thanksgiving trip was planned.

The trip itself:I can't recall ever sitting down to Thanksgiving dinner at 6:00 AM. Air Force One touched down at Baghdad International Airport, under cover of darkness, at 5:20 AM Baghdad time. Bush was on the ground for two and a half hours, his plane departing Baghdad at around 7:50 AM. Considering that it likely took some 30 minutes for Bush to disembark from Air Force One and travel by a heavily secured motorcade to the hangar where the troops were assembled, that means our military men and women were downing turkey, stuffing, cranberry sauce, pumpkin pie, and non-alcoholic beer at a time when most people would be eating eggs, bacon, grits, home fries, and toast.
Now, there were no Iraqi solid citizens met with. There was no time.
If two hours does not a Phot-Op make, I don't know what does.
I think tomorrow I'll scrap the Bran Muffin & Green Tea and see if I can pack a picnic basket with all the left over Thanksgiving goodies on my 6 am train.

Sennators Clinton & Reed:
- On the ground for a couple of days in Afganistan
- Met with troops, commanders, Afgani government officials/Citizens
- Ate Turkey during Turkey eating hours!!


Bush, in my opinionand if it was me on active duty & being ordered to eat Turkey @ 5:30 AM, harmed all postive perceptions that could be taken away from the visit, even if you bypass the staggering fact that he only could give of himself two hours when there was no place else for him to be. That's my CINC's great sacrafice? Sleeping in his bed on his plane, smiling in front of a Turkey platter some unluckey Cook had to get up at 1 am to start cooking, forcing a fake tear and then hopping out?
Again, all he was missing is his flyboy dress up kit.
I really do love my country and wish that those on the Right will at least take several steps back and try, sometimes, to look at the big picture and see the manipulation in front of them being proffered by the Bushies. We want you back, but like the crackhead offspring analogy above, you have to stop staking hits of the vintage 1984 KoolAid.

Originally posted by Bout Time
And, for those still living in reality:

Think about the OPERATION:SCRUB THE PERIMETER that must have prepared for this "secret trip"?
I doubt that any folks were anywhere near the airport within shoulder launcher range. And those are the 'pro-US' folks being moved.

All the cluster# policy by this Idiots Handlers that have lead us to this sorry state is washed away by a Turkey PhotoOp? You Brownshirts are so "GUL--LA--BEL".....how's the weather in Weimar this time of year?

Face it: this was another AirCraft Carrier landing without the costume.

Very good points, indeed. What an operation it must've been, eh?