Originally posted by mooseofterror
Now that I respect jez, I don't agree with you, but I respect the way you formed your opinion. I on the other hand do not feel so strongly for animals. I guess you are a vegetarian then?

If we can gain some insight on the more indepth workings of the brains of animals then this serves as a "map" and will point researchers in the general direction of there goal. After all we share 95-98% the same DNA with chimps anyway.

Comparing a chimp to a 3 year-old is an unfair tactic, but I will let you slide on that.

What if we honored each and every animal ever used in research, like put their name on a big Wall like the war memorial? That should make up for their sacrifice, don't you agree? Then it is on par with the way humans are treated.

Honoring the dead with engravings on the wall is to make the people that are still alive feel better. It doesn't justify the death. It is supposed to serve as a reminder to those still living of the enormous sacrifice of others, so that we do not repeat our mistakes. I don't agree with the way humans treat, or are treated by, each other anymore than I approve of our treatment of animals. It is not the death of a soldier fighting for freedom or the humane death of an animal killed for food, that I take issue with. It is the torture and abuse of both humans and animals, at the hands of other humans, that strikes my heart.

@ Selfish pricks.

I once went to a...sort of zoo. My Mother wanted to take my cousins to see the animals. I was walking alone when I came across a primate in an 8 x 8 unit. He was sitting alone with the most sorrowful eyes. His eyes began to water and it looked as if he were crying..In fact, a few tears are falling from my eyes as I type this. He then turned his back on me as if he wasn't going to 'cater' to being exploited. I left that place hoping that my $5.00 would be used to provide food and water for the animals. I tried to make a difference afterwards and called several places, but to no availability. The local police department said that it was outside the city limits so they couldn't be of any help. How convenient since it's located just off the major highway in the area. I learned then that animals have absolutely no rights.

*Newsflash-We're all going to die. Let's try and make it a positive experience, rather than sacrificing another life in a selfish attempt to better your own. I've said this before, and I'll say it again, the end of humanity is the only path to peace.

jezi i would really like an answer to my question about the cat...and the terrormoose hit it right on your had...to eat is ok jezebel but to experiment on is wrong..how can u justify this ? ecspecially with the bible in your head like u have..I have to say thats the weirdest thing ive read to day....or better stupid.

Humane way of killing an animal for food? hmmm
Contradicting yourself aren't you? I mean, if you think animals should be treated like humans, then by your definition there is a humane way to kill humans ? for food?? makes no sense... flawed is you argument

i am totally against any animal experimentation. If they want to see how humans react to certain things, or find out how to cure humans, then they should experiment on humans.

There was this "exotic" animal farm right by my house in Missisippi. They had all sorts of animals that were uncommon in those parts, and they let them starve. at night i could hear them crying, and they were so thin that they looked like skeletons. We actually had no humane society that would do anything about it, and the police in the area didnt care. There was a humane society for the city but not for the county, and they said they could not investigate it or something ridiculous like that, so basically they can do whatever they want to those animals without getting in trouble.

Originally posted by mooseofterror
Humane way of killing an animal for food? hmmm
Contradicting yourself aren't you? I mean, if you think animals should be treated like humans, then by your definition there is a humane way to kill humans ? for food?? makes no sense... flawed is you argument

If people ate each other, I would hope we would be humane about it, but (for the most part) we don't. Yes there are quick, painless ways of killing animals raised for food. There are also humane ways of killing people. That is what euthanasia is all about. If I were going to be killed, my primary concern would be that it was painless. We are humane when we put an animal out of it's misery if it can't be helped. Why? Because we don't want it to suffer. There is no reason why this can't be done with animals we raise for food. I would not presume to tell anyone that they cannot eat meat. I would tell them that if they are killing something for any other reason than food or self-defense, it is not justified. Personally, I have trouble smashing a bug, and would never be able to kill an animal, even if it was for food.
Like I said, death is inevitable. My issue is not with death but with the treatment of an animal or person that is alive. To imprison a wild animal in a tiny cage in a basement and perform experiments on it, is sick. To torture an animal before you kill it, for food or otherwise, is sadistic. Anyone who causes to the suffering of another living animal, needs to realize that no matter what that animal may be, it still feels the same fear and pain that we do and does not deserve to suffer.

Originally posted by jozuph
Hi jezi, i love the dog story but what if one of this dogs is being attacked by a mad cat, lets jus assume this..and this cat is going to hurt it bad, so bad that the only way he can survive is by gettin the heart of this cat that attacked em..would u let ure lovely dog die in favor of this cat ?
ps iam not 70 yett :]]

[Edited on 21-11-2003 by jozuph]

I'm not sure if I understand you're question. I think that you are asking me, If a cat attacked my dog and injured him so severely that he required a heart transplant from the cat, would I kill the cat to save my dog? If I'm right in this interpretation, then my answer would have to be no, even with the assumption that a cat heart could save my dog to begin with. If the cat was not killed in the fight, then I would not kill it to save my dog. I would be heart-broken and cry my eyes out for a long time, but I would not kill the cat. It would have been acting upon it's natural instincts and I cannot judge it for that. People are the only ones capable of killing out of malice. Animals are not.

Animal testing is wrong, full stop. How can we treat animals like this? interested in helping close down these places? www.shac.net Join the movement
Sometimes science goes too far. All in the name of science? whatever.

Once scientists heated the bottom of a metal cage full of rats just to see how long they could jump for

The animals in labs are bred to die in a certainly painful and unjustifyed way. People like the ALF attack breeding farms and rescue animals from labs.
It isnt science anymore, its animal abuse. LAbs may only test on animals if they mean to harm the animal, how dumb is that? And blair walked out of the conference against animal testing. Some great primeminister he is.

Originally posted by Monk
Once scientists heated the bottom of a metal cage full of rats just to see how long they could jump for

that is just scum, I hope these people burn for # like this. If I personally met someone who did this I'd beat the # out of them, then put them in a hot cage and see how long THEY can jump for.

Originally posted by jozuph
jezi i would really like an answer to my question about the cat...and the terrormoose hit it right on your had...to eat is ok jezebel but to experiment on is wrong..how can u justify this ? ecspecially with the bible in your head like u have..I have to say thats the weirdest thing ive read to day....or better stupid.

As far as the religious theory you refer to, it is true that I believe that animals are the embodiment of the Spirit, and cannot separate themselves from it like we have. I don't think that it is wrong to eat animals, as long as we are humane about killing them, but I am not entirely convinced of this. It is something I have been struggling with morally.
Animals eat each other as part of the food chain. I have known vegetarians who's doctors told them that they had to return to being a carnivore again because they had developed deficiencies from the lack of red meat. Also there is the fact that our teeth are the teeth of omnivores, not just herbivores, leading me to believe we were designed to eat meat and plants. So, in truth, I don't know my stance on this yet, I'm still exploring my feelings on this question. I don't feel my opinion on this subject contradicts my opinion on the treatment of animals that are alive, however. They are two separate issues.

jezebel:

I have known vegetarians who's doctors told them that they had to return to being a carnivore again because they had developed deficiencies from the lack of red meat. Also there is the fact that our teeth are the teeth of omnivores, not just herbivores, leading me to believe we were designed to eat meat and plants.

well that doctor is surely a meat-eater, it's like asking bill gates if linux or any other system than windows is better... i would like to see your teeth but if i have a look at mine , there pretty much like other vegetarian beigns. If you take a look to the our intestines they are way longer (like veg animals) than carnivore animals (gotta be short cause flesh turn rapidaly to worms and #)

omnivorous - 1656, from L. omnivorus, from omnis "all" + vorare "devour, swallow." Yeah this word is in fact more an ''american way of eating''

Another example of a disturbing Primate Experiment Please do not read this if you are weak of heart.

The scientists seperated a baby chimp from its mother and locked up the mother somewhere else. They made a replica(fake) Mother monkey and stood it up, the baby monkey ran towards it and clang onto it. They wanted to see what would make it get away from the mother. First they had the replica monkey shaken violently, and the baby still didnt let go. They also tried putting spikes on it, and heating it. How low do these people go?

Originally posted by John Nada

Originally posted by jezebel
The ends do not always justify the means. Just because we can capture, imprison, experiment on, and torture a creature weaker than us, doesn't mean we should.
If people are so concerned with finding a cure for neurological problems in humans, experiment on humans. The assumption that monkeys experience suffering less than people, just because they can't speak is absurd. They feel joy, sadness, pain, and pleasure just like we do. I am so sick of people claiming that just because we behave, communicate, or think differently than animals, it means that they are beneath us and therefore subject to our will. If an alien came here from a different planet but didn't think or communicate like we do, would we be justified in #ing with it's brain also? Would it be ok to lock it in a cage and use it to satisfy our curiosity? Monkeys, apes and dolphins are three of the most intelligent creatures on the planet. Who is to say whether or not they are as valuable as we are?

People are supposed to die. If we weren't, we wouldn't. Our obsession with putting off the inevitable, because we can't bring ourselves to face it, is not justification to abuse or torture other creatures. Instead we should be focusing on coming to terms with the our eventual demise, and the ways which we can improve the quality our natural lives while we have them.

thanks jezebel, you said it much better than I ever could. And as a side note, if you believe in God, how do you think he feels about this kind of behaviour? Exactly. And just because it isn't you doing the testing doesn't mean your wont be held responsible, it's for your gain and you have done nothing to stop it so you are. I don't believe in the big G, but I still think it's sickening even without a dogma hanging over me.

And as a side note, if you believe in God, how do you think he feels about this kind of behaviour? Exactly.

well, he did give us every "clean" animal for food, and every seed or fruit bearing plant for food aswell, to use as we see fit/need. please atleast read the scripture you falsely try to use to your own gain.

Originally posted by Monk
Once scientists heated the bottom of a metal cage full of rats just to see how long they could jump for

proof?

Originally posted by Monk
Another example of a disturbing Primate Experiment Please do not read this if you are weak of heart.

The scientists seperated a baby chimp from its mother and locked up the mother somewhere else. They made a replica(fake) Mother monkey and stood it up, the baby monkey ran towards it and clang onto it. They wanted to see what would make it get away from the mother. First they had the replica monkey shaken violently, and the baby still didnt let go. They also tried putting spikes on it, and heating it. How low do these people go?

once again. show us some proof. i keep an open mind, or hope that i can, but unsubstantiated "stories" (which is what your posts are boiling down to) do not sway me in any fashion.