The ends do not always justify the means. Just because we can capture, imprison, experiment on, and torture a creature weaker than us, doesn't mean we should.
If people are so concerned with finding a cure for neurological problems in humans, experiment on humans. The assumption that monkeys experience suffering less than people, just because they can't speak is absurd. They feel joy, sadness, pain, and pleasure just like we do. I am so sick of people claiming that just because we behave, communicate, or think differently than animals, it means that they are beneath us and therefore subject to our will. If an alien came here from a different planet but didn't think or communicate like we do, would we be justified in #ing with it's brain also? Would it be ok to lock it in a cage and use it to satisfy our curiosity? Monkeys, apes and dolphins are three of the most intelligent creatures on the planet. Who is to say whether or not they are as valuable as we are?

People are supposed to die. If we weren't, we wouldn't. Our obsession with putting off the inevitable, because we can't bring ourselves to face it, is not justification to abuse or torture other creatures. Instead we should be focusing on coming to terms with the our eventual demise, and the ways which we can improve the quality our natural lives while we have them.

Originally posted by jezebel
The ends do not always justify the means. Just because we can capture, imprison, experiment on, and torture a creature weaker than us, doesn't mean we should.
If people are so concerned with finding a cure for neurological problems in humans, experiment on humans. The assumption that monkeys experience suffering less than people, just because they can't speak is absurd. They feel joy, sadness, pain, and pleasure just like we do. I am so sick of people claiming that just because we behave, communicate, or think differently than animals, it means that they are beneath us and therefore subject to our will. If an alien came here from a different planet but didn't think or communicate like we do, would we be justified in #ing with it's brain also? Would it be ok to lock it in a cage and use it to satisfy our curiosity? Monkeys, apes and dolphins are three of the most intelligent creatures on the planet. Who is to say whether or not they are as valuable as we are?

People are supposed to die. If we weren't, we wouldn't. Our obsession with putting off the inevitable, because we can't bring ourselves to face it, is not justification to abuse or torture other creatures. Instead we should be focusing on coming to terms with the our eventual demise, and the ways which we can improve the quality our natural lives while we have them.

thanks jezebel, you said it much better than I ever could. And as a side note, if you believe in God, how do you think he feels about this kind of behaviour? Exactly. And just because it isn't you doing the testing doesn't mean your wont be held responsible, it's for your gain and you have done nothing to stop it so you are. I don't believe in the big G, but I still think it's sickening even without a dogma hanging over me.

There's another one, don't you think you prioritize where you put your energy? I mean come on. That was beautiful though, almost made me feel one with nature*PUKE* Now, I have read your well tought out posts before, but I just type what is on my mind and don't care too much for the politically correctness. So*still PUKING* Get excited about something that really matters. 1 step at a time, individuals like u jez never get anything done because you start too much crap at once. I rather torture a monkey if it would help my grandmother's suffering. Anxiously awaiting your reply.

And u repo, don't assume everyone believes in god or even cares if "god" exists. Both of your arguments are from one side and that is a "spiritual-ethic" blah blah blah. Nobody wants to answer my first post. Why not worry about YOUR HUMAN RIGHTS instead of the chimp's.
Always something to complain about while you getting stab in the back your entire life by corporations and the govenment. Oh NO.... I think I have to PUKE again

Well, it would only halt your grandmothers suffering temporarily, she would still die eventually, we all die so you better get used to that fact. When it's your time it's your time, and you can't cheat it.
Another way of looking at it is that it would prolong her agony, the body will always give up eventually, no matter what you can do to it.
So to temorarily extend someones life you end anothers, that is bull# and sadistic.

I find it funny how so many so called God loving people are terrified of death, and will do anything to avoid it. It proves to me beyond doubt that the sickening lengths they go through to avoid it proves that deep down even they don't believe in the big G.

Originally posted by John Nada

Originally posted by jezebel
The ends do not always justify the means. Just because we can capture, imprison, experiment on, and torture a creature weaker than us, doesn't mean we should.
If people are so concerned with finding a cure for neurological problems in humans, experiment on humans. The assumption that monkeys experience suffering less than people, just because they can't speak is absurd. They feel joy, sadness, pain, and pleasure just like we do. I am so sick of people claiming that just because we behave, communicate, or think differently than animals, it means that they are beneath us and therefore subject to our will. If an alien came here from a different planet but didn't think or communicate like we do, would we be justified in #ing with it's brain also? Would it be ok to lock it in a cage and use it to satisfy our curiosity? Monkeys, apes and dolphins are three of the most intelligent creatures on the planet. Who is to say whether or not they are as valuable as we are?

People are supposed to die. If we weren't, we wouldn't. Our obsession with putting off the inevitable, because we can't bring ourselves to face it, is not justification to abuse or torture other creatures. Instead we should be focusing on coming to terms with the our eventual demise, and the ways which we can improve the quality our natural lives while we have them.

thanks jezebel, you said it much better than I ever could. And as a side note, if you believe in God, how do you think he feels about this kind of behaviour? Exactly. And just because it isn't you doing the testing doesn't mean your wont be held responsible, it's for your gain and you have done nothing to stop it so you are. I don't believe in the big G, but I still think it's sickening even without a dogma hanging over me.

John not to offend u but come on, quote, And just because it isn't you doing the testing doesn't mean your wont be held responsible, it's for your gain and you have done nothing to stop it so you are.
Are these your words really, but then we all go to HELL, we will al be PUNISHED for not doing #, we will all be held RESPONCIBLE...By the ALMIGHTY GOD..Why always bringing in this guy, always always on every subject, GOD this GOD that..why ? And this is not to u John ....What will GOD do ? Kill us all ? Make my kids retarded ? Let america invade iran [did it already started, judgement day]....Prevent us from using embryos ? Believe what u want but plz stop trying to use this believe as an excuse/rule for everything.....

errrr...ok. I stated that I don't believe in God, I was just show the hypocrisy of so called "God Lovers" who say they believe and then show their true beliefs by doing anything to save their own skin. Learn to read properly pal.

I know what you said, but you also use the fact that you do not believe in god to explain your opinion. Again, there is more than 2 choices. No god, god, and I don't give a #, which expands into more choices.

So how has that got any bearing on what's been discussed here? This thread is about animal experiments and I was mearly extended a question to religious people on the matter. As you have stated you are not religious so again I ask, how is what you said relevant here?
Keep on topic pal.

If you don't get then I stop posting here, I ain't holding your hand to walk across the street.

Originally posted by mooseofterror
If you don't get then I stop posting here, I ain't holding your hand to walk across the street.

[JN slaps hand away!]

I don't want it mate. I get just don't see how a question I asked of the religious applies to someone like you who has clearly stated that they are not religious, so please do carry through your threat of not posting here. I'm really broken up about it but I'll live.

Originally posted by jezebel
If people are so concerned with finding a cure for neurological problems in humans, experiment on humans.

It would be tempting to "volunteer" John Allen Muhammad (the Beltway sniper) for this one, wouldn't it?

Seriously, there needs to be some sort of good model that these things can be tested on. I saw (once) some neurological testing on a cat (she had electrodes implanted in her head and was strapped down in a cage) - a cat that I'd seen in the pound just 3 days before. It bothered me terribly for many days afterward.

There will always be issues with testing on any sort of tissue, I'm afraid, until we can get reliable and predictive computer models.

Originally posted by jezebel
The ends do not always justify the means. Just because we can capture, imprison, experiment on, and torture a creature weaker than us, doesn't mean we should.
If people are so concerned with finding a cure for neurological problems in humans, experiment on humans. The assumption that monkeys experience suffering less than people, just because they can't speak is absurd. They feel joy, sadness, pain, and pleasure just like we do. I am so sick of people claiming that just because we behave, communicate, or think differently than animals, it means that they are beneath us and therefore subject to our will. If an alien came here from a different planet but didn't think or communicate like we do, would we be justified in #ing with it's brain also? Would it be ok to lock it in a cage and use it to satisfy our curiosity? Monkeys, apes and dolphins are three of the most intelligent creatures on the planet. Who is to say whether or not they are as valuable as we are?

People are supposed to die. If we weren't, we wouldn't. Our obsession with putting off the inevitable, because we can't bring ourselves to face it, is not justification to abuse or torture other creatures. Instead we should be focusing on coming to terms with the our eventual demise, and the ways which we can improve the quality our natural lives while we have them.

didnt i in my first post offered myself jezebel ??

Originally posted by mooseofterror
There's another one, don't you think you prioritize where you put your energy? I mean come on. That was beautiful though, almost made me feel one with nature*PUKE* Now, I have read your well thought out posts before, but I just type what is on my mind and don't care too much for the politically correctness. So*still PUKING* Get excited about something that really matters. 1 step at a time, individuals like u jez never get anything done because you start too much crap at once. I rather torture a monkey if it would help my grandmother's suffering. Anxiously awaiting your reply.

Sorry it took so long. I was off doing something else.

No I don't think that my energy is wasted on this topic. People are self-righteous, condescending assholes, with no concern for anything but their own survival. The whole concept of experimenting on monkeys contradicts itself. If a monkey is not of the same mental capacity as a human, making it ethically just to use them for neurological experiments, then what makes us think those experiments (on mentally inferior creatures) will be valid when applied to the superior human brain? If a monkey is mentally comparable to humans, how can you justify experimentation on them? Would you condone the same treatment of a retarded child? Monkeys have been shown to share the mental capacity of a 3 year old, so I guess it would be OK to do the same things to 3 year-old children. Why should our morals only apply toward the treatment of our own species?

As for if I would support this experimentation in order to cure my sick grandmother, no I would not. As I said, we all die. If my grandmother was in pain, I would ease her pain, but I would not change my opinion on this subject. If it was me, my parents, or my child, there are some ends that the means do not justify. Like I said before, if humans feel that this experimentation will benefit mankind to such a huge degree, then use humans for the experimentation. I bet it would cease to be important real quick.

Do you want to know why I feel so strongly about this? No, I'm gonna tell ya anyway. It is because of my dogs. I have 2 of the most beautiful dogs, a husky and a lab mix. My husky, Gypsy, understands me when I speak in plain english , she throws temper tantrums when she gets in trouble (though she often chooses to disobey), when she is sad she comes to me for comfort, and when I look in her eyes, I know exactly what she is thinking. She does the same things my friends with human children talk about. My lab, Brodie, is a little more neurotic. He has separation-anxiety (yes, animals can suffer from this) presumably as a result of his original owner. He gets very nervous if he can't find Gypsy or one of us. He is afraid of the dark. Imagine that, a 45lb. dog afraid of the dark. And his eyes are the most loving, emotional eyes you have ever seen. They hold the essence of all that is pure and good in the world and to destroy anything that bears those qualities, including most humans, is the reprehensible. Yes this is weepy and all that, but it is true none the less.

Originally posted by jozuph
didnt i in my first post offered myself jezebel ??

Yes, you did, and that was quite noble of you. If more people, who support this research, were willing to do this then maybe this topic wouldn't even need to be discussed.

Originally posted by jezebel

Originally posted by mooseofterror
There's another one, don't you think you prioritize where you put your energy? I mean come on. That was beautiful though, almost made me feel one with nature*PUKE* Now, I have read your well thought out posts before, but I just type what is on my mind and don't care too much for the politically correctness. So*still PUKING* Get excited about something that really matters. 1 step at a time, individuals like u jez never get anything done because you start too much crap at once. I rather torture a monkey if it would help my grandmother's suffering. Anxiously awaiting your reply.

Sorry it took so long. I was off doing something else.

No I don't think that my energy is wasted on this topic. People are self-righteous, condescending assholes, with no concern for anything but their own survival. The whole concept of experimenting on monkeys contradicts itself. If a monkey is not of the same mental capacity as a human, making it ethically just to use them for neurological experiments, then what makes us think those experiments (on mentally inferior creatures) will be valid when applied to the superior human brain? If a monkey is mentally comparable to humans, how can you justify experimentation on them? Would you condone the same treatment of a retarded child? Monkeys have been shown to share the mental capacity of a 3 year old, so I guess it would be OK to do the same things to 3 year-old children. Why should our morals only apply toward the treatment of our own species?

As for if I would support this experimentation in order to cure my sick grandmother, no I would not. As I said, we all die. If my grandmother was in pain, I would ease her pain, but I would not change my opinion on this subject. If it was me, my parents, or my child, there are some ends that the means do not justify. Like I said before, if humans feel that this experimentation will benefit mankind to such a huge degree, then use humans for the experimentation. I bet it would cease to be important real quick.

Do you want to know why I feel so strongly about this? No, I'm gonna tell ya anyway. It is because of my dogs. I have 2 of the most beautiful dogs, a husky and a lab mix. My husky, Gypsy, understands me when I speak in plain english , she throws temper tantrums when she gets in trouble (though she often chooses to disobey), when she is sad she comes to me for comfort, and when I look in her eyes, I know exactly what she is thinking. She does the same things my friends with human children talk about. My lab, Brodie, is a little more neurotic. He has separation-anxiety (yes, animals can suffer from this) presumably as a result of his original owner. He gets very nervous if he can't find Gypsy or one of us. He is afraid of the dark. Imagine that, a 45lb. dog afraid of the dark. And his eyes are the most loving, emotional eyes you have ever seen. They hold the essence of all that is pure and good in the world and to destroy anything that bears those qualities, including most humans, is the reprehensible. Yes this is weepy and all that, but it is true none the less.

Hi jezi, i love the dog story but what if one of this dogs is being attacked by a mad cat, lets jus assume this..and this cat is going to hurt it bad, so bad that the only way he can survive is by gettin the heart of this cat that attacked em..would u let ure lovely dog die in favor of this cat ?
ps iam not 70 yett :]]

[Edited on 21-11-2003 by jozuph]

Now that I respect jez, I don't agree with you, but I respect the way you formed your opinion. I on the other hand do not feel so strongly for animals. I guess you are a vegetarian then?

If we can gain some insight on the more indepth workings of the brains of animals then this serves as a "map" and will point researchers in the general direction of there goal. After all we share 95-98% the same DNA with chimps anyway.

Comparing a chimp to a 3 year-old is an unfair tactic, but I will let you slide on that.

What if we honored each and every animal ever used in research, like put their name on a big Wall like the war memorial? That should make up for their sacrifice, don't you agree? Then it is on par with the way humans are treated.