Combat Shotguns (an attempt at an intelligent post)

Mossberg!

Remington!

Originally posted by FULCRUM

Good qualities..

Saigas suck, they jam and have feeding problems..

Their magazines dont function.. and special ammo (low-recoil..) is totally of the menu..

Saigas suck.

P.S.

I really am getting fed up with this whole weapons forum as all wnb and sunday experts are trying here to feed me with loads of BS!!!

(Like in the stupid a$$ AK-47 vs M-16 topic..)

Like some of you know:

I have been in the military,

I have trained other there,

I am a reservist NCO at the moment..

I know plenty if not all about weapons and war what there is to know..

Wars and weapons are my hobby, they are my life.

[Edited on 20-11-2003 by FULCRUM]

I provided information to my claims....do you have any links about self reloading shotguns being unreliable??? i doubt it..

I think you guys are forgetting one of them best combat shotguns ever created.

A 12 Gauge non-conventional full automatic
Hekler & Koch Close Assault Weapon System



It was a competetor in the american CAW programme.
The CAW used a special belted brass case ammunition developed by Olin/Winchester that drove the tungsten alloy buckshot at a higher velocity than possible with conventional ammuniton, in the desire for greater range.

You need range- this ammunition makes the shotgun as accurate as an assault rifle.
It also used conventional shotgun buckshot ammo.



The barrel length was 18 inches, and weighed in at a hefty 9.5 pounds. The CAW was capable of both semi and full automatic fire. In automatic mode, cyclic rate was reported to be 240 RPM. No pump-action here, that could spoil the fun, but in the field, effectivenes is the most important.

Link!

Semi-automatic shotguns can use several different actions - inertia recoil (Benelli), gas (Russian AK-47-derived Saiga-12 and Italian Franchi SPAS-15), barrel recoil (Browning designed Auto-5 and Remington 11). Semi-autos usually have less recoil (especially gas-operated ones), and higher rate of fire, but somewhat more sensitive to the loads selection. The greater firepower, offered by semi-automatic shotguns, is especially useful for military applications, where short-range encounters are usually very rapid, and the amount of firepower used in a short period of time is essential to win the scenario and save one's life.

To use advantages of both pump and semi-auto designs, some manufacturers designed select-action shotguns, where user may select the action style with just turn of the lever or so. Such shotguns are Franchi SPAS15, or Benelli M3S90, for example. The disadvantages of those selective systems are somewhat increased weight and greater unit price.

Another Link!

To avoid such drawbacks, auto-loading shotguns have been developed. The guns can feature either underbarrel cylindrical or box-type detachable magazines. A positive thing with a semi-auto shogun is that an operator can fire it with one arm, as may be required by the situation. Bad thing is that auto-loading weapons need substantial energy to perform reloading. Non-lethal cartridges, in this case, are a failure with most of the semi-autos.

Theres some..

But the list is endless..

*watches his post burst into flame*

Well... that was interesting. Okay.

Fulcrum- While we do appreciate your experience, you COULD stand to be a little less inflamatory. Could we state the specific reasons you think the Mossberg and the Remington are better than the Saiga or the Nova?

SirCyco- Dude, I respect you. You got spirit. There's no need to run amok yelling and flaming about this little topic. Yes, I do realize that Fulcrum can be...abrasive . Prove him wrong, using the facts instead of attacking him personally.

This madness has to stop. Are there any other possible votes for best combat shotgun? Specific models, please, with reasons behind the choice.

Current contenders:

Benelli Nova Tactical
Saiga 12k
Mossberg 590A1
Remington Model 870 Marine Magnum
HK CAWS

DE

[Edited on 21-11-2003 by DeusEx]

Shotgun + Automatic and semi-automatic fire modes..



Link!

And also..



And all shotgun ammo works..

And has automatic fire.. from the rifle/carbine..



*edit*

I forgot to mention..

This is called as Masterkey



[Edited on 21-11-2003 by FULCRUM]

That Jackhammer was a nice full-auto shotgun but you're right not to put it in the list. This is an unreliable weapon, jams easily. It has been on the market for some time but... noone wanted to buy it.

But this barell magasine could be set for shooting all the cartriges at once. A sort of a primitive landmine.

Originally posted by FULCRUM
Link!

]Semi-autos usually have less recoil (especially gas-operated ones), and higher rate of fire, but somewhat more sensitive to the loads selection. The greater firepower, offered by semi-automatic shotguns, is especially useful for military applications, where short-range encounters are usually very rapid, and the amount of firepower used in a short period of time is essential to win the scenario and save one's life.

To use advantages of both pump and semi-auto designs, some manufacturers designed select-action shotguns, where user may select the action style with just turn of the lever or so. Such shotguns are Franchi SPAS15, or Benelli M3S90, for example. The disadvantages of those selective systems are somewhat increased weight and greater unit price.

Another Link!

To avoid such drawbacks, auto-loading shotguns have been developed. The guns can feature either underbarrel cylindrical or box-type detachable magazines. A positive thing with a semi-auto shogun is that an operator can fire it with one arm, as may be required by the situation. Bad thing is that auto-loading weapons need substantial energy to perform reloading. Non-lethal cartridges, in this case, are a failure with most of the semi-autos.

if anything i think these links you provided seem to make the semi autos seem like a more usefull military shotgun rather the the pumps...

who cares about non-lethal shells being used...obviously they are not a life or death situation anyway..

Nonlethal ammo I do believe also includes breachers,, and shock tactics do like the tear gas...

However, I must disqualify the masterkey, as it is an attachment rather than an all-out actual shotgun.

SirCyco's points are valid. semi-auto shotguns are nice for firefights, but Fulcrum's points about ammo types and jamming are valid as well.

but somewhat more sensitive to the loads selection.

i dont consider this evidence to huge jamming problems that would cause this gun to be useless...

[Edited on 11-21-2003 by sirCyco]

Breachers, CS/CN, batton and flare ammo are all low-recoil yet very important..

Especially for SF and Police forces..

And Semi and full automatic weapons cant use these!

(at least not with out slow manual reloading..)

And like we all know SF and Police are the primary users of shotguns in combat!!!



[Edited on 21-11-2003 by FULCRUM]

Automatic shotguns are also prone to jamming when using lighter slug and pellet loads..

Originally posted by FULCRUM
Breachers, CS/CN, batton and flare ammo are all low-recoil yet very important..

Especially for SF and Police forces..

And Semi and full automatic weapons can use these!

(at least not with out slow manual reloading..)

And like we all know SF and Police are the primary users of shotguns in combat!!!

so special forces mostly need non-lethal ammo...thats is BS..

Originally posted by FULCRUM
Automatic shotguns are also prone to jamming when using lighter slug and pellet loads..

there are also saiga 20 guage's and saiga .410's made for using smaller types of ammo..

My personal favorite it the Ithaca model 37. Bottom load bottom eject and I have never had a jam of any kind. I would guess that since I have had mine it has gone through about 10,000 rounds of all types (game loads, OO Buck, Slugs and some uhhhh alternative rounds without fail. Also, very easy to keep clean as there is no side ejection port andd the barrel can be removed/ replaced in about 10 seconds without tools.



[Edited on 21-11-2003 by Fry2]

That Ithaca 37 is pump-action..



So naturally it doesnt jam..

I have had a Mossberg 500 jam on me before (the ejection hook disingaged half way out of the breech).
A friend I was shooting with actually had his model 500 fall apart while cycling the action.
Can you tell I hate Mossberg?

Oh and btw. I can fire the 37 just as fast as any semi auto. Just hold the trigger and pump. Of course thats not the most accurate method of firing...

Originally posted by Fry2
Oh and btw. I can fire the 37 just as fast as any semi auto. Just hold the trigger and pump

. Of course thats not the most accurate method of firing...

...accurate no...fun, OH HELL YES

We were at a point where there were 5 weapons mentioned
Benelli Nova Tactical
Saiga 12k
Mossberg 590A1
Remington Model 870 Marine Magnum
HK CAWS

Do we vote? Or do we give more data on our gunz?