Combat Shotguns (an attempt at an intelligent post)

Now you silly heathens, let us go over some basic rules for this post. It is very simple: I want more than a pic, or a line saying "this gun has so and so gauge". I want multiple reasons why a certain weapon should be voted Best Tactical/Combat Shotgun of Current Time. Let me give you some basic examples:

Please don't give me a standard bigger is better attitude like I've seen the the Desert Eagle. Yes, it makes a fine sporting and home defense pistol, but as a mil-issue sidearm, it is crap. This is not to be debated. The debate shall issue around shotgun, and shotguns alone.

Accuracy, round size, recoil, and clip size are all relevant. So are size and a hsot fo other issues. Please assume that these are all equally important. For isntance, you would not want a beefy-ass weapon in close combat, nor would you want a horribly inaccurate weapon to defend your home/apartment/cardboard box under the bridge from invaders (after all, our friends, family, possesions and pets are often placed in said places).

So, to be clear, this is a thinking thread about COMBAT SHOTGUNS. Nothing else. Your argument should have multiple points. A pic would also be nice. Please don't make me regret posting on this issue.

DE

PS- I favor two of the Benelli Line, the Nova Tactical and Super M1. This may change after others have posted.

[Edited on 19-11-2003 by DeusEx]

Saiga 12 (Russia)

Saiga 12K with 430 mm barrel
Type: Semi-auto, gas operated, rotating bolt shotgun
Gauge: 12
Chamber: 76mm (3").
Length: 910/670mm (buttstock open/folded)
Weight: 3.5kg.
Barrel length: 430mm.
Capacity: 5 or 8 rounds in detachable box magazine

based on the famous and time-proven Kalashnikov AK-47 assault rifle design. ..box magazine feeding....
The shotgun part of this large family includes guns chambered for .410, 20 and 12 gauge magnum ammunition. In each chambering, there's at least three versions, with long barrel and fixed stock, long barrel and folding, AK-74M type polymer stock and with same folding stock and shorter barrel. The latter versions intended as a security, police and self-defense weapons, and are widely used by numerous Russian law enforcement and private security services.
In general, Saiga 12K is a reliable and effective close combat weapon, being much cheaper than its famous western counterparts from Beretta, Franchi and other brands.

Ah, very fine weapon, that. But what about ammo changes? Certain advantages go to the pump action shotguns, my friend, such as less recoil and eaiser ammunition interchange. A fine start to the thread- I expect similar posts.

I like the trusty 12.




The M-1 super 90

Jackhammer shotgun (USA)



fully automatic

Gauge: 12
Length: 787 mm
Barrel length: 525 mm.
Weight unloaded : 4.57 kg
Capacity : 10 rounds in removable revolver-type drum magazine
Rate of fire: 240 rounds per minute

The Jackhammer is a gas operated, fully automatic only shotgun. The feed system consists of the 10 shot, revolver type detachable cylinders, named "Ammo Cassette". The cassette may have 10 chambers for more or less conventional 12 gauge shotgun shells.

It seems H&K has disabled on their site at least from my pc i can not access the "military" or "tech data" links from their website I dont know if something is up or what????? please try:


www.hk-usa.com...

Benelli M4 Super 90 / M1014 JSCS (Italy)


Type: gas operated, semi-auto
Gauge: 12 (chamber 3" - 76 mm)
Length: 1010 mm (extended stock), 886 mm (closed stock)
Barrel length: 470 mm
Weigth 3.8 kg unloaded
Feeding: 6 rounds in underbarrel tube magazine

Benelli M4 Super90 is a gas operated, smoothbore, magazine fed semi-auto shotgun. The telescopic stock may be replaced by pistol grip or hunting-style stocvk without any tools. Acessory weaver-style rail is installed at the top of the receiver. This rail may accept scopes, laser illuminators, night-vision sights etc.Gun is so designed that it can fire 3" and 2 3/4" (70 and 76 mm) shotshells of different power without any ajustments and in any combination.Gun is very reliable in any weather conditions.

the M4 S9 is one of my favorites.

Originally posted by thehippiedude
It seems H&K has disabled on their site at least from my pc i can not access the "military" or "tech data" links from their website I dont know if something is up or what????? please try:


www.hk-usa.com...

It works for me...
Don't know what to tell ya

Originally posted by thehippiedude
It seems H&K has disabled on their site at least from my pc i can not access the "military" or "tech data" links from their website I dont know if something is up or what????? please try:


www.hk-usa.com...

Sort of cut and pasted around in the source code...

www.hk-usa.com...

Didn't do anything that wasn't available to the general public, so I guess I didn't do anything illegal...right...

cool thanks for the links guys.... I have no idea why its not working when i click on them.

Wow sirCyco, thats one Mr Fancy-Pants bomb-stick...do I acquire it by shopping smart, by shopping S-Mart?? *sorry, couldn't resist the Evil Dead reference*

There are a number of combat shotties I've used and would enjoy the company of if/when the excrement impacts with the rapidly circulating propellors:




South African Protecta (with the 12"barrel instead of the 18" USA compliance 'Street Sweeper' version). 12 cartridges of family fun and fury...collapsable stock with pistol grip and solid well formed fore-grip. Very robust and compact Combat Shotgun, rapid firing and very 'point and shoot', perfect for close in combat room to room. Amazingly solid and very basic design...very little to it so is also surprisingly light endearing itself to ease of movement and rapid muzzle direction changes. One of the best compact shotties I've had the pleasure of accelerating my loss of hearing with.



Mossberg M590A1 Compact. Nice compact Military/Law Enforcement Shotgun from one of my favourite Shotgun producers...the big M *and nothing to do with Ronald McDonald*...currently have a cutdown Mossie 500, the M590 Compact is much the same. Robust, light, 'chuckable' and again compact enough to whip around in confined areas like within your house etc



Benelli M4 Super90...semi-auto tactical shottie, duplicate gas-op system, telescopic shoulder stock for personalised fit, front mounting lugs/grooves etc for tac lights, lazers, night sights etc. A very night handling, very well balanced tactical that also absorbs some of the recoil into the telescopic shoulder stock...which is nice...no need to dislocate your arm while relocating some baddies brain-matter.

*ahhh, I see sirCyco once again has great taste in boomsticks and has also made mention of the Super90*


Peace,
ALIEN

Hmmm no that link is just law enforcement they used to have the latest & greatest military weapons for sale... have you seen the briefcase thats for sale???? I still cant click on military or tech data........damnit!!!

It's disabled by default. That, or they are still working on the site..it's been updated recently.
To add to the thread...

I like the old standby Mossberg 500. It's reliable and durable. Easily cleaned and maintained. Rounds are in ready supply. All around great shotgun if you ask me.
sorry..forgot a pic...

Nice and sweet.....

[Edited on 11-19-2003 by darklanser]

Mossberg model 500 Persuader riot gun.

Since it has already been posted, I also favor the saiga 12. This is a great gun that is versatile. Sport hunting, home defense and tactical.

Since all info on the gun has been posted above, I will waste no more space for specs.

Here is my take on the situation:




Benelli 'Nova' tactical shotgun with Aimpoint red-dot sight and extended magazine

Type: pump-action
Gauge: 12
Chamber: 3 1/2 inch (89 mm)
Length: 1025 mm (with 470 mm barrel)
Barrel length: 470 mm (18.5 inch) or 500 mm (20 inch)
Weight: 3.05 kg empty, with 470mm barrel
Capacity: 4 3-inch rounds in underbarrel tube magazine (6 3-inch rounds with extended magazine)


Let us compare it to the Saiga-

Saiga is semi-auto. The Nova is pump action. I prefer pump action because of the ease of shell interchange (ei. if you need to knock down a door, and load up some breaching rounds a semi auto is a pain in the ass to use). Also, recoil is slightly lower in teh logn run, as shots have a cycling period between them, instead of heaping shot after shot on top of one another, especially with teh considerable recoil associated with shotguns.

The ammunition type difference is minmal- except the Nova can pack the 3.5 inch mag shells as well as the normal 3 inchers. The carrying capacity is up to six three inch shotshells, more if smaller shells are used. The Saiga only has 5 or 8 round boxes, so the carrying capacity I consider a draw (as the Nova could, technically, carry more if non-mag shells are used).

As for length, there is at least a 90mm difference, which I concede to the Saiga. However, the weight of the weapon sways towards the Nova by almost a solid half kilogram. Also, the Nova is weather-treated, and therefore the reliability issue is also a draw.

In the modifications area, the Nova wins without a shadow of a doubt. It has an optional extended magazine and top-mounted accessory rail for most scopes , including red-dot and night vision.

My only real gripe with the Nova is the lack of a pistolgrip model. However, I clearly favor it as is.

DE

The Saiga only has 5 or 8 round boxes, so the carrying capacity I consider a draw (as the Nova could, technically, carry more if non-mag shells are used).

yes but while you are hand reloading you shotgun one shell at a time I just pop in another clip and I am ready to go..

Yeah, you may be able to fire fast....but accurately is another matter entirely. Pump actiosn also allow for ammunition conservation.

DE

....but accurately is another matter entirely. Pump actiosn also allow for ammunition conservation

how do you know the difference in accuracy between the two?? i mean come on they are shot guns! we are talking about close range combat....and the saiga is not fully automatic...ammo conservation is up to the user not the weapon..if you mean by slower then yes the nova is definitely slower...