If Being Gay is alright in the eyes of God then.....

Originally posted by mutehalo
here we go again, yet another debate on whether or not homosexuality is evil. well i sure ain't gona touch it. oh wait i just did..

DO'HH

Ratherly so. I feel sullied for even looking at this, much less participating like I have, but I can't stand to see these people bash away at gays. Once again, for all your sakes, live and let live. What people's sexual orientation is is none of you're FRAGGIN' bussiness. This thread in itself sets bad precedent for other debates.

DE

Is the Bible as we have it, with the books chosen to be in it, the word of God?

Who said which books should be in it and why?

We have used the Old Testament to test the new because the writers of the New Testament were following on from it.

But is the Old Testament what we have been led to think it is?

Is it mostly man's word about God rather than God's word to man?

God may have spoken to the writers, but has He spoken through the writers?

Which, then, are God's laws, and which are laws men have added? Is that what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 23 - all that men had added?

11.6 million children live in poverty in the United States, 4.2 million of them under the age of 6.
7% of America's children are living in "extreme poverty," their family's income being under $6,145/year.
In New York City alone, 10,000 children are homeless.

What kind of person are you if you're more concerned about who someone loves than the children starving in your own neighborhood?
Instead of screaming mindlessly when the word "gay" comes up, why don't you volunteer your time at a soup kitchen?
When's the last time you gave of yourself to help someone in need?
Have you ever stopped to think about what your god would want you to put your energy towards?

Got a problem with that?
Come out to one of our benefit shows for local Homeless shelters or Toys for Tots, and I'll be glad to put on an exhibition match with you for everyone's entertainment.

-B.

Originally posted by Banshee
11.6 million children live in poverty in the United States, 4.2 million of them under the age of 6.
7% of America's children are living in "extreme poverty," their family's income being under $6,145/year.
In New York City alone, 10,000 children are homeless.

What kind of person are you if you're more concerned about who someone loves than the children starving in your own neighborhood?
Instead of screaming mindlessly when the word "gay" comes up, why don't you volunteer your time at a soup kitchen?
When's the last time you gave of yourself to help someone in need?
Have you ever stopped to think about what your god would want you to put your energy towards?

Got a problem with that?
Come out to one of our benefit shows for local Homeless shelters or Toys for Tots, and I'll be glad to put on an exhibition match with you for everyone's entertainment.

-B.

Banshee, my respect for you just skyrocketed. not to mention she has a point.

DE

Originally posted by Banshee
Got a problem with that?
Come out to one of our benefit shows for local Homeless shelters or Toys for Tots, and I'll be glad to put on an exhibition match with you for everyone's entertainment.
-B.

Banshee !!!! Please, please, please let me mid-card for you in that exhibition. I have watched this thread since this morning. It's a damn shame the way some people try to justify their own way of life by putting another person's down. I have a sneaking suspicion that those who shout the loudest may be shouting from a small little closet of their own making. Sad. Very sad indeed. I have a lot of gay friends. Whatever they want for/from each other is fine by me. In their hearts and minds, they are the normal ones, not us. Their reality is being a minority that's more frowned upon than racism in some ways.
This thread will go on forever because...what we have here....is a failure....to communicate.
Peace and Powerbombs Banshee. Good night.

This topic has come on A.T.S now many times ........What is it that people want???

Do they wish for God to change His ways and live according to man's law ???

God has not changed.......and He will never change......
What is written is written.

People should not accuse others of their SIN ...Yes SIN because in the eyes of God the biggest SIN is not knowing that we ourselves fall short of the same thing..

But not knowing that you SIN is worse....because you cannot be helped if you do not see the thing you do is wrong in the eyes of God......All sin can be forgiven.....but Blashemy ......blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matt. 12:31-32). The Holy Spirit is, above all, the Spirit of Truth, as the Saviour loved to refer to Him. Accordingly, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against the Truth, conscious and persistent opposition to it.


There is a sin which is mortal. ... All wrongdoing is sin, but there is a sin which is not mortal" (1 Jn 5:16). Mortal sin, or sins "unto death," keep us out of heaven as long as we do not repent of them,
seek God's forgiveness for them, and reform our lives. St. Paul is clear: "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God?" (1 Cor 6:9).

�Who will have all men to be saved� (I Tim. 2:4) and �Who enlightens every man born into the
world� (Jn. 1:91,



www.oca.org...

Originally posted by darklanser

Originally posted by Banshee
Got a problem with that?
Come out to one of our benefit shows for local Homeless shelters or Toys for Tots, and I'll be glad to put on an exhibition match with you for everyone's entertainment.
-B.

Banshee !!!! Please, please, please let me mid-card for you in that exhibition. I have watched this thread since this morning. It's a damn shame the way some people try to justify their own way of life by putting another person's down. I have a sneaking suspicion that those who shout the loudest may be shouting from a small little closet of their own making. Sad. Very sad indeed. I have a lot of gay friends. Whatever they want for/from each other is fine by me. In their hearts and minds, they are the normal ones, not us. Their reality is being a minority that's more frowned upon than racism in some ways.
This thread will go on forever because...what we have here....is a failure....to communicate.
Peace and Powerbombs Banshee. Good night.

Well said darklanser!

Originally posted by nathraq

why did he destroy Soddom and Gommorah?

And this story has what to do with being gay? Are you saying because it's in the bible, it makes it wrong?

Are you saying those of us, who are non-christian, are subject to your judgements and punishments?

Are you implying, even though I'm not gay, but I have absolutely no problem with same-sex marriages, that I too am to be punished because I believe it's ok for gays to get married?

OMG, please use a better arguement for not supporting same sex marriage, or any other bytch you might have against anything. I would much rather hear how you personally feel on the subject, not how someone else has programmed you to feel.

Think for yourself

How about these?

18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination

1:26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.

6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

God created Adam and Eve, NOT Adam and Steve.

My brother is a homosexual, and he's about ready to die due to AIDS. For all of his life he "Thought" homosexuality was "OK", now that he's ready to die his whole outlook on life has changed. HE KNOW"S IT"S WRONG, and he is changing he ways.

I know this will bring many negative post's and I accept that, but please don't post any stupid # k?

Thanks
Glan

Originally posted by glan

How about these?

How about this?

`Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

"They also will answer, `Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Matthew 25:32-40

Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter-- when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear; then your righteousness will go before you, and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard. Then you will call, and the LORD will answer; you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.

If you do away with the yoke of oppression, with the pointing finger and malicious talk, and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness, and your night will become like the noonday. Isaiah 58:6-10

and finally,

"The world today is hungry, Not only for bread. But hungry for love; Hungry to be wanted, Hungry to be loved."
Mother Theresa

Think about it.
-B.

Originally posted by Banshee

Originally posted by glan

How about these?

How about this?

`Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

"They also will answer, `Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Matthew 25:32-40

Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter-- when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear; then your righteousness will go before you, and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard. Then you will call, and the LORD will answer; you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.

If you do away with the yoke of oppression, with the pointing finger and malicious talk, and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness, and your night will become like the noonday. Isaiah 58:6-10

and finally,

"The world today is hungry, Not only for bread. But hungry for love; Hungry to be wanted, Hungry to be loved."
Mother Theresa

Think about it.
-B.

Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.



Banshee, anyone can make anything they want out of the bible. But the bottom line is we are ALL given the same opportunity accept it or not (it's your call).

We have certain things we have to do/belive/or follow that is written.

lol...its a bible scripture throwing fight..

Banshee......Hi...

I dont think that the people here at A.T.S that are opposed to Homosexuality are having a go at ''Homosexuals'' ......
Yes.......It is a sin to look at others and their faults but completely miss our own faults....

What you said in your post about feeding the hungry and helping is all part of being a Christian......And in the eyes of God if those that call themselves Christians do not accept what the Teachings of Christ are ...are at the same level as those that are not repented of their deeds!

We all like to point out others mistakes and their faults..but when it comes to knowing our own we become rude and dont want to hear about it..
So when Jesus Christ does come....
"When the Son of Man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8),
"See then that you walk circumspectly/because the days are evil" (Ephesians 5:15-16). "Even so, come Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22:20).

To speak the truth is good...

Apostle Peter writes: "If when you do well and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is accepted with God. For even here unto were ye called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that we should follow his steps" (I Pet. 2:2-21).
In precisely the same way the holy Apostle Paul says repeatedly in his epistles that all true Christians must be ascetics, and the ascetic labor o' the Christian consists of crucifying himself for the sake of Christ: "They that are Christians have crucified the flesh together with the passions and lusts" (Gal. 5:24).


On Prayer and fasting...
Christ the Savior Himself stressed the great significance of the podvig of prayer and fasting when His disciples found themselves unable to cast out demons from an unfortunate boy who was possessed.
He told them clearly, "This kind (of demon) goeth not out
save by prayer and fasting" (Matt. 17:21).

You see, therefore, that one who loves only to spend time enjoying himself and does not think of self-denial and self-sacrifice,
but continually wallows in every possible fleshly pleasure and delight is completely un-Orthodox, un-Christian.
Concerning this the great ascetic of Christian antiquity, the Venerable Isaac the Syrian, taught well: "The way of God is a daily cross. No one ascends to heaven living cooly (i.e. comfortably, carefree, pleased with himself, without struggle). And of the cool path, we know where it ends" (Works, p. 158). This is that "wide and broad way" which, in the words of the Lord Himself, "leadeth to destruction" (Matt. 7:13).

helen...

Originally posted by helen670
Banshee......Hi...

I dont think that the people here at A.T.S that are opposed to Homosexuality are having a go at ''Homosexuals'' ......
Yes.......It is a sin to look at others and their faults but completely miss our own faults....

What you said in your post about feeding the hungry and helping is all part of being a Christian......And in the eyes of God if those that call themselves Christians do not accept what the Teachings of Christ are ...are at the same level as those that are not repented of their deeds!

We all like to point out others mistakes and their faults..but when it comes to knowing our own we become rude and dont want to hear about it..
So when Jesus Christ does come....
"When the Son of Man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8),
"See then that you walk circumspectly/because the days are evil" (Ephesians 5:15-16). "Even so, come Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22:20).

To speak the truth is good...

Apostle Peter writes: "If when you do well and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is accepted with God. For even here unto were ye called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that we should follow his steps" (I Pet. 2:2-21).
In precisely the same way the holy Apostle Paul says repeatedly in his epistles that all true Christians must be ascetics, and the ascetic labor o' the Christian consists of crucifying himself for the sake of Christ: "They that are Christians have crucified the flesh together with the passions and lusts" (Gal. 5:24).


On Prayer and fasting...
Christ the Savior Himself stressed the great significance of the podvig of prayer and fasting when His disciples found themselves unable to cast out demons from an unfortunate boy who was possessed.
He told them clearly, "This kind (of demon) goeth not out
save by prayer and fasting" (Matt. 17:21).

You see, therefore, that one who loves only to spend time enjoying himself and does not think of self-denial and self-sacrifice,
but continually wallows in every possible fleshly pleasure and delight is completely un-Orthodox, un-Christian.
Concerning this the great ascetic of Christian antiquity, the Venerable Isaac the Syrian, taught well: "The way of God is a daily cross. No one ascends to heaven living cooly (i.e. comfortably, carefree, pleased with himself, without struggle). And of the cool path, we know where it ends" (Works, p. 158). This is that "wide and broad way" which, in the words of the Lord Himself, "leadeth to destruction" (Matt. 7:13).

helen...

Amen. Good job.

I am so tired of people quoting the bible about this. This same book that tells you not to eat shell fish. Well I don't see you putting down the shrimp. Plus there are hundreds of more references about "straight activities" in the bible than gay. Oh, do you all pay your tithe? 10% of everything you have. Pay up, or burn in hell.

I hate to tell you this but god did not write the bible. That book you are reading is a bastardised version of something writen thousands of years ago by Man. Whether god spoke through man or he didn't we don't know. We will never know. Just take a look at what you are reading. Don't believe everything you read, isn't that the saying? If any of you have ever laid eyes on the original text. The Aramiac, the Hebrew, the Latin, whatever. Tell me what it says. I don't put stock in any Mass-produced corporate ploy. What you have now is something completely different than what was originally writen. If your god is so against it, your god who creates everything, why did he make me this way?

Anyway. It's all open to interpretation. This whole issue is a neverending arguement. Nothing anyone says will ever make it go away. Its the new Black or White. People will live how they feel is right for them. People will always have beliefs. People will always have hate. I did my best to open some peoples eyes and maybe I did. But when some people can't see beyond their bible, well, there's nothing I can do. I tried my best.

I will live the best way I know how. That's all I know how to do.

Originally posted by helen670
Banshee......Hi...

I dont think that the people here at A.T.S that are opposed to Homosexuality are having a go at ''Homosexuals'' ......
Yes.......It is a sin to look at others and their faults but completely miss our own faults....

What you said in your post about feeding the hungry and helping is all part of being a Christian......And in the eyes of God if those that call themselves Christians do not accept what the Teachings of Christ are ...are at the same level as those that are not repented of their deeds!

We all like to point out others mistakes and their faults..but when it comes to knowing our own we become rude and dont want to hear about it..
So when Jesus Christ does come....
"When the Son of Man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8),
"See then that you walk circumspectly/because the days are evil" (Ephesians 5:15-16). "Even so, come Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22:20).

To speak the truth is good...

Apostle Peter writes: "If when you do well and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is accepted with God. For even here unto were ye called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that we should follow his steps" (I Pet. 2:2-21).
In precisely the same way the holy Apostle Paul says repeatedly in his epistles that all true Christians must be ascetics, and the ascetic labor o' the Christian consists of crucifying himself for the sake of Christ: "They that are Christians have crucified the flesh together with the passions and lusts" (Gal. 5:24).


On Prayer and fasting...
Christ the Savior Himself stressed the great significance of the podvig of prayer and fasting when His disciples found themselves unable to cast out demons from an unfortunate boy who was possessed.
He told them clearly, "This kind (of demon) goeth not out
save by prayer and fasting" (Matt. 17:21).

You see, therefore, that one who loves only to spend time enjoying himself and does not think of self-denial and self-sacrifice,
but continually wallows in every possible fleshly pleasure and delight is completely un-Orthodox, un-Christian.
Concerning this the great ascetic of Christian antiquity, the Venerable Isaac the Syrian, taught well: "The way of God is a daily cross. No one ascends to heaven living cooly (i.e. comfortably, carefree, pleased with himself, without struggle). And of the cool path, we know where it ends" (Works, p. 158). This is that "wide and broad way" which, in the words of the Lord Himself, "leadeth to destruction" (Matt. 7:13).

helen...

Hi Helen, I think we should start at the beginning so who wrote this book that you call the bible ? Did u ever heard this little game where the first person tells something to the next, and that one tells it to the next...and so on..lets say it started with heterosexual people but when the last person in the game get to be spoken uppon he hears thats its about homosexual people. Thats how the bible stories have been told, on and on..till there was someone so clever to write it down. dont know who this was or when but after that he started using this to manipulate people by making em believe its true waht was written. He or they used it to scare other people and so he made it possible for him/her/them to controll the masses with a load of b-#..fairytales wich have been twisted and twisted over thousands of years..go back to the beginning and the game..maybe god [if he ever spoke wich i highly doubt but i still respect u believe it] was talking bout homosexuals as the good ones

Why do u actually have this firm believe in the bible, or god ? so firm that u attack other people other people with it and i think if u attack another person for whatever he is u should make damn shure youre right..wich u cant be, or plz give me some examples..only one maybe where god unleashes his powers to correct a wrong person ? Its only people like u that try to do so, that killed i dont know how many people in the name of god [shall thy not kill?]..then why do u do it ? Like i said b4, if u look at what people hvae been doing in the name of god doesnt it then like like its been in the name of the devil ? why cant none of your believers [the word says it all] comment to this ? Do u have this believe because its hard for u to see the real world and to accept how it is or maybe cause u have a problem with yourself in the way that u find it hard to stand for yoursef, cause its damn easy to just go by a book and dont think for yourself and take the concequences for your actions

[Edited on 20-11-2003 by jozuph]

Originally posted by BlackJackal
why did he destroy Soddom and Gommorah?

Since this is the first thing fundamentalist Christians always point out when speaking against homosexuality, I will address this first.

The sin the men of the town wanted to commit against the angels was not homosexuality but rape. They called the angels, which they thought were men, out because they wanted to violently gang rape them. There is a HUGE difference between consensual sex between two people of the same sex and sexual assault.
There is also another account of this same story but with different names and places.

Judges 19:17 And when he had lifted up his eyes, he saw a wayfaring man in the street of the city: and the old man said, Whither goest thou? and whence comest thou?
Judges 19:18 And he said unto him, We [are] passing from Bethlehemjudah toward the side of mount Ephraim; from thence [am] I: and I went to Bethlehemjudah, but I [am now] going to the house of the LORD; and there [is] no man that receiveth me to house.
Judges 19:19 Yet there is both straw and provender for our asses; and there is bread and wine also for me, and for thy handmaid, and for the young man [which is] with thy servants: [there is] no want of any thing.
Judges 19:20 And the old man said, Peace [be] with thee; howsoever [let] all thy wants [lie] upon me; only lodge not in the street.
Judges 19:21 So he brought him into his house, and gave provender unto the asses: and they washed their feet, and did eat and drink.
Judges 19:22 [Now] as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, [and] beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.
Judges 19:23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, [nay], I pray you, do not [so] wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.
Judges 19:24 Behold, [here is] my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.
Judges 19:25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.
Judges 19:26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord [was], till it was light.
Judges 19:27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down [at] the door of the house, and her hands [were] upon the threshold.
Judges 19:28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her [up] upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.
Judges 19:29 And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, [together] with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.
Judges 19:30 And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak [your minds].
Judges 20:3 (Now the children of Benjamin heard that the children of Israel were gone up to Mizpeh.) Then said the children of Israel, Tell [us], how was this wickedness?
Judges 20:4 And the Levite, the husband of the woman that was slain, answered and said, I came into Gibeah that [belongeth] to Benjamin, I and my concubine, to lodge.
Judges 20:5 And the men of Gibeah rose against me, and beset the house round about upon me by night, [and] thought to have slain me: and my concubine have they forced, that she is dead.

Notice that the townsmen ask for the stranger that they may "know", him but when the Israelites ask the man for an explanation, he says the men of the town sought to SLAY him, not KNOW him in a sexual sense. "know him" is the same phrase that is used in the story of Lot.
Maybe "knowing" someone has more than one definition, and doesn't always mean what people claim. It certainly appears to when you look at this particular case.
The Israelites go on to destroy the town and,

Judges 20:38 Now there was an appointed sign between the men of Israel and the liers in wait, that they should make a great flame with smoke rise up out of the city. Judges 20:40 But when the flame began to arise up out of the city with a pillar of smoke, the Benjamites looked behind them, and, behold, the flame of the city ascended up to heaven.
Judges 20:41 And when the men of Israel turned again, the men of Benjamin were amazed: for they saw that evil was come upon them.

So my take on all this is that maybe the things that were attributed to being actions commanded by God were really things were commanded by men and attributed to God. Maybe the fire and brimstone that destroyed Soddom and Gommorah was caused by men and not God, after all.

Another point about basing our laws or morals on the Old Testament Bible, is that it used to be acceptable to sell one's daughter or son into slavery, incest was accepted before people were distant enough relations to avoid it. Women were not supposed to plait (braid) their hair, children who swore a their parents were worthy of death, having sex with your wife while on her period was considered immoral and a sin, and there are a thousand more rules that people back then followed, but are no longer recognized as pertinent to Christianity or salvation.
If you are going to adhere to one rule as being true and relevant today, then you must adhere to all of them. If you don't, your argument loses all of it's merit.
Leviticus 20:18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.
Leviticus 21:17 Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever [he be] of thy seed in their generations that hath [any] blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. Leviticus 21:18 For whatsoever man [he be] that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Leviticus 21:19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Leviticus 21:20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; Leviticus 21:21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.
Leviticus 21:22 He shall eat the bread of his God, [both] of the most holy, and of the holy.
Leviticus 21:23 Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the LORD do sanctify them.

The fact is, these are all rules that were given to the Jews as rules to separate them from the rest of mankind. These rules did not and do not apply to anyone other than the "chosen people". To continue touting the Old Testament as justification for condemning gay people is ludicrous.

My heart breaks for people like Garon, who have to be subjected to the hatred of mislead, self-righteous "Christians" that don't even understand the context or teachings of the Bible they cling so tightly to. Jesus, as documented by John (the only writer who was a WITNESS to His teachings) taught nothing but love, kindness, tolerance, understanding, and compassion. If being Christian is to be like Christ, then maybe everyone should start following His example rather than picking and choosing from the rules meant for the Israelites alone.

Good question I'll ask her when I see her.

BlackJackal


are you saying it's NOT ok to be gay.........

but it IS ok to offer your two daughters to a mob to be pack raped?

always thought there was rather twisted logiv in this particular bible story myself.

[Edited on 20-11-2003 by mulberryblueshimmer]

Originally posted by jezebel

Originally posted by BlackJackal
why did he destroy Soddom and Gommorah?

Since this is the first thing fundamentalist Christians always point out when speaking against homosexuality, I will address this first.

The sin the men of the town wanted to commit against the angels was not homosexuality but rape. They called the angels, which they thought were men, out because they wanted to violently gang rape them. There is a HUGE difference between consensual sex between two people of the same sex and sexual assault.
There is also another account of this same story but with different names and places.

Judges 19:17 And when he had lifted up his eyes, he saw a wayfaring man in the street of the city: and the old man said, Whither goest thou? and whence comest thou?
Judges 19:18 And he said unto him, We [are] passing from Bethlehemjudah toward the side of mount Ephraim; from thence [am] I: and I went to Bethlehemjudah, but I [am now] going to the house of the LORD; and there [is] no man that receiveth me to house.
Judges 19:19 Yet there is both straw and provender for our asses; and there is bread and wine also for me, and for thy handmaid, and for the young man [which is] with thy servants: [there is] no want of any thing.
Judges 19:20 And the old man said, Peace [be] with thee; howsoever [let] all thy wants [lie] upon me; only lodge not in the street.
Judges 19:21 So he brought him into his house, and gave provender unto the asses: and they washed their feet, and did eat and drink.
Judges 19:22 [Now] as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, [and] beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.
Judges 19:23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, [nay], I pray you, do not [so] wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.
Judges 19:24 Behold, [here is] my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.
Judges 19:25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.
Judges 19:26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord [was], till it was light.
Judges 19:27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down [at] the door of the house, and her hands [were] upon the threshold.
Judges 19:28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her [up] upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.
Judges 19:29 And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, [together] with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.
Judges 19:30 And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak [your minds].
Judges 20:3 (Now the children of Benjamin heard that the children of Israel were gone up to Mizpeh.) Then said the children of Israel, Tell [us], how was this wickedness?
Judges 20:4 And the Levite, the husband of the woman that was slain, answered and said, I came into Gibeah that [belongeth] to Benjamin, I and my concubine, to lodge.
Judges 20:5 And the men of Gibeah rose against me, and beset the house round about upon me by night, [and] thought to have slain me: and my concubine have they forced, that she is dead.

Notice that the townsmen ask for the stranger that they may "know", him but when the Israelites ask the man for an explanation, he says the men of the town sought to SLAY him, not KNOW him in a sexual sense. "know him" is the same phrase that is used in the story of Lot.
Maybe "knowing" someone has more than one definition, and doesn't always mean what people claim. It certainly appears to when you look at this particular case.
The Israelites go on to destroy the town and,

Judges 20:38 Now there was an appointed sign between the men of Israel and the liers in wait, that they should make a great flame with smoke rise up out of the city. Judges 20:40 But when the flame began to arise up out of the city with a pillar of smoke, the Benjamites looked behind them, and, behold, the flame of the city ascended up to heaven.
Judges 20:41 And when the men of Israel turned again, the men of Benjamin were amazed: for they saw that evil was come upon them.

So my take on all this is that maybe the things that were attributed to being actions commanded by God were really things were commanded by men and attributed to God. Maybe the fire and brimstone that destroyed Soddom and Gommorah was caused by men and not God, after all.

Another point about basing our laws or morals on the Old Testament Bible, is that it used to be acceptable to sell one's daughter or son into slavery, incest was accepted before people were distant enough relations to avoid it. Women were not supposed to plait (braid) their hair, children who swore a their parents were worthy of death, having sex with your wife while on her period was considered immoral and a sin, and there are a thousand more rules that people back then followed, but are no longer recognized as pertinent to Christianity or salvation.
If you are going to adhere to one rule as being true and relevant today, then you must adhere to all of them. If you don't, your argument loses all of it's merit.
Leviticus 20:18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.
Leviticus 21:17 Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever [he be] of thy seed in their generations that hath [any] blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. Leviticus 21:18 For whatsoever man [he be] that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Leviticus 21:19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Leviticus 21:20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; Leviticus 21:21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.
Leviticus 21:22 He shall eat the bread of his God, [both] of the most holy, and of the holy.
Leviticus 21:23 Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the LORD do sanctify them.

The fact is, these are all rules that were given to the Jews as rules to separate them from the rest of mankind. These rules did not and do not apply to anyone other than the "chosen people". To continue touting the Old Testament as justification for condemning gay people is ludicrous.

My heart breaks for people like Garon, who have to be subjected to the hatred of mislead, self-righteous "Christians" that don't even understand the context or teachings of the Bible they cling so tightly to. Jesus, as documented by John (the only writer who was a WITNESS to His teachings) taught nothing but love, kindness, tolerance, understanding, and compassion. If being Christian is to be like Christ, then maybe everyone should start following His example rather than picking and choosing from the rules meant for the Israelites alone.

its always funny that people use the same words to explain different views and its always this stupid, its right, its wrong story..jezebel, maybe my idea about the bible is right after all

Originally posted by jozuph

its always funny that people use the same words to explain different views and its always this stupid, its right, its wrong story..jezebel, maybe my idea about the bible is right after all

It has definitely been misconstrued and misinterpreted throughout it's various translations. Whether or not the original Old Testament texts were inspired by God, I couldn't say. They strike me as being a historical account of the people living back them as told by the religious leaders of the times. Also, the religious rituals documented earlier in Leviticus are very reminiscent of other ancient pagan rituals. That is going to sound very sacreligious to many, but facts are facts, and if you read it objectively you can see what I mean.