If Being Gay is alright in the eyes of God then.....

Homosexuality has been around since the dawn of mankind. The numbers of homosexuals have increased on this planet as the numbers of man/woman kind increase.

Homosexuality is not an answer to overpopulation, esp when they only make up of 2-3 percent of society ( Kinselys 10 percent is grossly outdates and full of flaws ).

Deep

I don't think it's 2-3 % anymore Zero.
That's what's so strange. The Percentage of homosexuals in this world seems to be growing. In Brazil for example, it's way way above the 2-3 %.

www.familyresearchinst.org...

Well, how can we figure the ones who are still in the closet ? People are still scared to reveal thier sexual orientation in fear of rejection and humilation. What of third world countries, were some of the population can be unaccounted for ? Countries were homosexuality can result in life inprisonment and even stoning ?

I think the numbers could be higher, only time will tell.

Deep

I'm NOT gay and personally I think this whole argument is stupid. The sole purpose of life is not to procreate and pass your genes on to your children. If anything the purpose of human existence is developing meaningul relationships and making a difference in other peoples lives. Last time I checked you didn't need to be heterosexual to accomplish this.

There are roughly 6 billion people on this earth. 6 BILLION! Just because a small group of people don't have sex with the opposite sex and therefore don't have children, doesn't mean the human race is going to die off! Hell I might even be so bold to say that there is a larger number of heterosexual people in the world that CHOOSE not to have children then there are gays.

The fact is that gays are a part of our society and unless you plan to rise to power in a Hitlerish way and wipe them from the face of the earth they are going to be here tomorrow. Learn to live with it. It is only weird now because we are not used to it. I say let em marry each other, let em kiss in public, heck they can come have sex on my front lawn for all I care.

Gays are not the problem. A society that is afraid of change is the problem.

I'm afraid I couldn't bear to read all 38 pages of this, but might I just suggest, that the story you recount seems more like a condemnation of rape, of nonconsensual sex, than of homosexuality. The townsfolk never say, let us meet these folk so we can ask them if they fancy a bit, they just say, send them out so we can climb inside 'em. (I'm paraphrasing) So it seems more a condemnation of rape to me thanhomosexuality.
Also, you should have edited that story a little better mate. CAuse it ends with Lot's daughters getting him drunk so that they can seduce him and have kids by him. So basically, what you're saying is the bible condemns homosexuality, but its totally down with incest! That, for me, illustrates perfectly why the Bible should be taken with at least a pinch of salt.

Originally posted by Yog the Sloth
So basically, what you're saying is the bible condemns homosexuality, but its totally down with incest! That, for me, illustrates perfectly why the Bible should be taken with at least a pinch of salt.

Uhm, how about understanding this part in the first place.
That Loth sends his daughter out to be raped by these men, does not mean this is the right thing for him or anyone to do.
It's a common misconception to think that when the bible does not clearly condemn the actions of an individual in a story or historical diary, it's the right thing to do according to the bible.

I'm sure Loth was wrong as well, but his actions were result of his fear for a greater evil, a group of men outside his house wanting to rape about everyone inside.

This story is about rape, more than about homosexuality.
If these men were "just" homosexuals, they could have entertained eachother. They clearly wanted to have sex with someone who does not want to have sex with them, God knows why.
That's why they were wrong, and that's why God kicked their arses.

I wonder if we get so caught up in the argument that we forget why we argue... Is it because there is a right and a wrong and we truely seek to find it, or because we want what we believe to be right no matter what. Stop to consider the other. Seek the truth.

If its ability to produce children is the measure of whether a practice is correct or not, then Jesus Christ was not a good individual, because He did not produce any children, no?

Obviously, arguments that homosexuality is wrong because it does not produce children are specious. Producing children or not doing so is morally neutral.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
If its ability to produce children is the measure of whether a practice is correct or not, then Jesus Christ was not a good individual, because He did not produce any children, no?

Obviously, arguments that homosexuality is wrong because it does not produce children are specious. Producing children or not doing so is morally neutral.

I agree with you to a certain extent, Alex. The New Testament is ambiguous on the subject of homosexuality, whereas the Old Testament condemns it.
It seems to me that the argument against homosexuality is a Jewish argument and not a Christian one.

I think that the historical aspects of Judaism and the propagation of the early religion through childbirth were pertinent to the early lawmakers, whereas Christianity had no need of such political constraints. Judaism had to start from a very small base whereas Christianity was looking towards converting existing populations.

In my opinion, you are correct - the argument that childbirth and the continuation of the line to follow the religion is not pertinent to the Christian faith and homosexuality is a non-issue. But if you look at the Jewish faith of history and the present day spread of Islam coupled with it's high birth rate, I believe it is an ugly subject that could become much more emotive in future.

This thread still going on?? Homosexuality is a SIN like any other.
Like normal sex outside of marriage.Like LIEING, STEALING and MURDER, it is a sin. Once you have SALVATION you are SAVED from your sin and OLD LIFE and begin a NEW LIFE IN CHRIST. SIMPLE. It gets complicated when people want to CONTINUE IN SIN but STILL HAVE GOD. What does light have to do with darkness?? Belial and Jesus?? Anyone who continues to be gay after receiving Jesus did NOT TRUELY RECEIVE JESUS. Its like being a murderer, receiving Christ then murdering as if nothing had happened. Sure people slip and make mistakes..BUT its a MAJOR difference from continuing your sinful life and not allowing the Holy Spirit to change you which is exactly what it does when you get saved. the OLD MAN DIES. THE MAN OF SIN IN YOU DIES!

links:

truthsaves.org...
www.desertstream.org...
www.purelifeministries.org...


And there are MILLIONS of links online. Just type "jesus salvation stories" find out the truth for yourself

I'd rather go to Hell than have to spend all eternity with a bigot like yourself.

Homosexuality is only a sin in the eyes of the blind.

Originally posted by dusran
...The sole purpose of life is not to procreate and pass your genes on to your children. If anything the purpose of human existence is developing meaningul relationships and making a difference in other peoples lives. Last time I checked you didn't need to be heterosexual to accomplish this.
...

You apprently haven't had any Biology in your lifetime? If humans are to stay on this planet we HAVE to procreate. As a species the only thing we are meant to do from a Biological stand point is procreate. Without it we woudn't be here, and our speices would be wiped off the planet. Also if we ever plan on evolving Biologically ever again we have to procreate.

Homosexuality doesn't go against Biology though. Although a homosexual's genes do not get passed on they help contribute to the passing on of other human's genes. So therefore Homosexuality is contributing to Society and Human Kind!

[edit on 29-6-2004 by HombreConUnPollo]

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
This thread still going on?? Homosexuality is a SIN like any other....

Last time I checked EVERYONE who emerges from their mother's Vagina is a SINNER. So therefore you are also a sinner. And also Jesus died to wipe away all the sins of mankind. Therefore if I SIN it doesn't matter because well Jesus died to wipe away my sins so I'm in the clear.

Also there is no way someone can find me a GOOD CHRISTIAN. By Good Christian I mean one who follows the Bible to the Letter. The reason why you may ask? The Ten Commandments(can't spell sorry). One of them is "Thou shall not kill". I bet there are a lot of soliders over there in Iraq that have killed plenty and still believe in God, Jesus, and the Bible. And this is good Christian practice how???

Originally posted by HombreConUnPollo
You apprently haven't had any Biology in your lifetime? If humans are to stay on this planet we HAVE to procreate. As a species the only thing we are meant to do from a Biological stand point is procreate. Without it we woudn't be here, and our speices would be wiped off the planet. Also if we ever plan on evolving Biologically ever again we have to procreate.

You miss-understood what I said. I said procreation was not the SOLE purpose in life. Of course it is a part of life and a part of human existence. I'm not that stupid. I know we will die it out if everyone stops procreating . Its just that personally the biological advancement of the human takes a seat way in the back of the bus when I think about what is important with humanity. I would rather see humanity evolve its ideals long before I would want to see an advance in biological terms. Unless biologically you could remove ignorance and blind hate from people...


[edit on 29-6-2004 by dusran]

The way I see it there are some people who believe in God and some who do not. Some who believe the Bible is inspired, and again some who do not. If God does exist, then according to the Bible there will be a "Judgement Day" when Jesus Christ will judge all the inhabitants of the earth. If not then we will all be dead and no one will care. Lets remember the beauty of the original design of this country. We are free to believe what we want as long as it does not disrupt the beliefs and rights of others. The only politically correct action to take in regard to your belief is voting for officials who share your beliefs. Otherwise, should we all not seek to live in peace and expand our minds?

Originally posted by dusran
..... Unless biologically you could remove ignorance and blind hate from people...
[edit on 29-6-2004 by dusran]

This may be possible. Who knows Tolerance and acceptance may be biological just like being gay. Or maybe they have a pysological disorder that we don't know of. Really we just need to change the way we educate our children at a young age. Social evolution is the key to tolerance. Hate is most likely a learned thing because at a young age most kids are very loving. If someone is hurt they don't care whether the kid is gay, black, white, mexican, or whatever that kid will care. Enless his or her parents have taught that child to hate. If the parents are bigots most likely the kid will be one too. I live in a small town. I've heard it all. People around here don't call people Mexican or Chinese. They use vulgar terms for them. It annoys me to no end also. They are people just like us. What they look like or who they sleep with is nothing that anyone can control and it's not something we should judge people on.

We should not teach our children hate...

Also the Bible says nothing about lesbianism. God likes lesbians. The bible only says "Mankind with not lie with other mankind like he lies with womankind" ...Maybe this is why guys like lesbians but not gay men...

[edit on 29-6-2004 by HombreConUnPollo]

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by Yog the Sloth
So basically, what you're saying is the bible condemns homosexuality, but its totally down with incest! That, for me, illustrates perfectly why the Bible should be taken with at least a pinch of salt.

Uhm, how about understanding this part in the first place.

You seem to have missed where I got the reference to incest. It comes from these verses, as cited by Black Jackal

19:31 The firstborn said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth.

19:32 Come, let's make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve our father's seed."

19:33 They made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father. He didn't know when she lay down, nor when she arose.

19:34 It came to pass on the next day, that the firstborn said to the younger, "Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine again, tonight. You go in, and lie with him, that we may preserve our father's seed."

19:35 They made their father drink wine that night also. The younger arose, and lay with him. He didn't know when she lay down, nor when she arose.

19:36 Thus both of Lot's daughters were with child by their father.

19:37 The firstborn bore a son, and named him Moab. The same is the father of the Moabites to this day.

19:38 The younger also bore a son, and called his name Ben Ammi. The same is the father of the children of Ammon to this day.

So as I said, it ends with Lots kids getting him drunk so they can make the beast with two backs. Now is that not incest? And is it also not clearly condoned by this passage? So I say again, lets start to take this whole bible business with a pinch of salt. It is clearly not always right. Unless you'ld be happy for you're sister to have a kid by you're dad. Personally, the idea appals me.

Originally posted by HombreConUnPollo
Last time I checked EVERYONE who emerges from their mother's Vagina is a SINNER.

I would assume that those born by Caesarean Section are also sinners, no?

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
I would assume that those born by Caesarean Section are also sinners, no?

lmao! Man it must suck to be God. You have to think of every little thing or else it comes back to bite you on the rear.

[edit on 29-6-2004 by dusran]

I'm not Christian. But not all Christians feel that the bible actually condemns homosexuality.

"The story of Sodom and Gomorrah has been used by people to condemn gays. The argument used by them is that God destroyed these cities because the people of these cities were homosexuals. In this section we will show conclusive BIBLICAL evidence that Sodom and Gomorrah were NOT destroyed because of homosexuals. The only book I will use to show this is the Bible. The Bible does not contradict itself because the it is the Word of God and God is not fickle.

The beginning of this story is found in Genesis 13:

Genesis 13:8-13

So Abram said to Lot, "Let's not have any quarreling between you and me, or between your herdsmen and mine, for we are brothers. Is not the whole land before you? Let's part company. If you go to the left, I'll go to the right; if you go to the right, I'll go to the left." Lot looked up and saw that the whole plain of the Jordan was well watered, like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, toward Zoar. (This was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.) So Lot chose for himself the whole plain of the Jordan and set out toward the east. The two men parted company: Abram lived in the land of Canaan, while Lot lived among the cities of the plain and pitched his tents near Sodom. Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD. (NIV)

Abraham and Lot were so wealthy that they had to separate because the land could not support both of them with all their family members, herds, and workers in one place Lot chose to move his family to the twin cities.

The next time we hear about these cities is in Genesis 18:16-33. Here God tells Abraham his plan for Sodom and Gomorrah.

Genesis 18:20-21

Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know." (NIV)

Abraham pleads for these cities because of his nephew Lot. While Abraham and God were talking, the other two angels go to Sodom. Let's read for ourselves what really happened that day:

Genesis 19:1-13

The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning." "No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square." But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate.

Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom both young and old-- surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof." "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door. But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door. The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here--sons-in- law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it." (NIV)

There are several major holes in the theory that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality. First, The idea that "all" the men of Sodom were gay is ridiculous. For one thing, Lot's daughters were pledged to be married to men of Sodom. Second, if all the men were homosexuals, why did Lot offer his daughters to appease them? What good would it do to offer a gay man a woman to have sex with? Finally, these people threatened Lot. If he didn't comply with their wishes they said they would do WORSE to him that to the two visitors. They were also trying to force the door down. They were obviously violent and they were trying to get at two unwilling guests. Whenever you mix sex with violence against an unwilling person you do not have homosexuality, you have RAPE.

There is another story in the Bible in which the same thing happened:

. Judges 19:13-27

He added, "Come, let's try to reach Gibeah or Ramah and spend the night in one of those places." So they went on, and the sun set as they neared Gibeah in Benjamin. There they stopped to spend the night. They went and sat in the city square, but no one took them into his home for the night. That evening an old man from the hill country of Ephraim, who was living in Gibeah (the men of the place were Benjamites), came in from his work in the fields. When he looked and saw the traveler in the city square, the old man asked, "Where are you going? Where did you come from?" He answered, "We are on our way from Bethlehem in Judah to a remote area in the hill country of Ephraim where I live. I have been to Bethlehem in Judah and now I am going to the house of the LORD. No one has taken me into his house. We have both straw and fodder for our donkeys and bread and wine for ourselves your servants-- me, your maidservant, and the young man with us. We don't need anything." "You are welcome at my house," the old man said. "Let me supply whatever you need. Only don't spend the night in the square." So he took him into his house and fed his donkeys. After they had washed their feet, they had something to eat and drink.

While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him." The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing." But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. (NIV)

Notice the similarity in the stories. Compare Genesis 19:4,5 with Judges 19:22.

Genesis 19:4,5

Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-- both young and old-- surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

Judges 19:22

While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."

In the account in Judges the wicked men were appeased with the female concubine. This proves they were not homosexuals. They were after sex for power or rape. If you read further you'll learn that the tribe of Benjamin was almost totally destroyed because of this incident. Neither the tribe of Benjamin nor the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were punished because of homosexuality. Both of these accounts clearly describe rape. What the men of Sodom were going to do to the angels in Genesis was what the men of Gibeah did to the traveler's concubine in Judges.

Why were Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed? What were the grievous sins that God judged them worthy of such destruction? What was the great outcry God was referring to in Genesis chapter 18? We don't need to wonder. The Bible tells us exactly why these cities were destroyed.

Ezekiel 16:48-50

As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done. "'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. (NIV)

Ezekiel Chapter 16 is an allegory God used to compare unfaithful Jerusalem to an adulterous wife for committing religious adultery. As you can see God listed the sins of Sodom. No homosexuality is listed there. Those detestable or abominable acts mentioned refereed to the religious rituals popular in that time. We will cover these in the section on false gods.

Deuteronomy 29:22-26

Your children who follow you in later generations and foreigners who come from distant lands will see the calamities that have fallen on the land and the diseases with which the LORD has afflicted it. The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur-- nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger.

All the nations will ask: "Why has the LORD done this to this land? Why this fierce, burning anger?" And the answer will be: "It is because this people abandoned the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, the covenant he made with them when he brought them out of Egypt. They went off and worshiped other gods and bowed down to them, gods they did not know, gods he had not given them. (NIV)

Moses was about to die and he predicted the scattering of Israel and the destruction of the land like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. This destruction of Israel was not prophesied because of homosexuality but because of religious infidelity. This is quite in line with the context of the entire Bible. Of course God promises their restoration in Deuteronomy chapter 30. This complete restoration is about to happen in the end times, but that is another study.

Amos 4:11

"I overthrew some of you as I overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. You were like a burning stick snatched from the fire, yet you have not returned to me," declares the LORD. (NIV)

If you read the book of Amos you find that God promises to overthrow Israel as He overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah for three things: turning away from God which is religious unfaithfulness, being evil to the poor and living selfishly. Homosexuality is not even addressed.

Jeremiah 23:13,14

"Among the prophets of Samaria I saw this repulsive thing: They prophesied by Baal and led my people Israel astray. And among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness. They are all like Sodom to me; the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah." (NIV)

Here is yet another comparison of the promised judgment of Israel to the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah. Once again the theme is religious unfaithfulness, not homosexuality.

Matthew 10:11-15

"Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. As you enter the home, give it your greeting. If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. (NIV)

Here, Jesus Christ compares the sin of Sodom to the sin of faithlessness in people who reject the Gospel and inhospitality.

Matthew 11:20-24

Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." (NIV)

Here the Lord again makes reference to Sodom's destruction as he talks about unrepentant cities that refuse to believe in him or his miracles. This is about religious unfaithfulness and unbelief, not homosexuality.

If you don't know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, you can know him right now. Don't be guilty of not believing in Him. Here is what Jesus himself said:

John 3:16-18

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. (NIV)

Notice that Jesus said WHOEVER believes in him shall have eternal life. The condemnation is reserved for WHOEVER does not believe in Him. He made no mention of homosexuals in this passage.

If you recognize that you are a sinner and need Jesus to be the Lord of your life then it is a very simple process. Ask God to forgive you of whatever has separated you from Him. That is what sin is. When you ask Him that he will forgive you:

I John 1:9-10

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. (NIV)

According to Romans 10:9,10 all you have to do is:

...confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. (NIV)

At the end of this article is a simple sample prayer that you can pray. There is also some other information you will want if it is your desire to receive Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.

If you have known Jesus as your Lord and Savior but felt you had to walk away because you are gay, come back to Him. He has never left you. Repent of whatever you have done to hurt yourself, others and God. He is just waiting for you with open arms. He understands it was all a misunderstanding. His love never fails.

Psalm 36:10-12

O continue thy lovingkindness unto them that know thee; and thy righteousness to the upright in heart. Let not the foot of pride come against me, and let not the hand of the wicked remove me. There are the workers of iniquity fallen: they are cast down, and shall not be able to rise. (KJV)

Psalm 48:9

Within your temple, O God, we meditate on your unfailing love. (NIV)

Give your heart back to Him and tell us about it. At the end of this article is some information for you if you have decided to rededicate your life back to God."

SOURCE: www.christiangay.com...


I'm new. I hope this helps the discussion a little though.