Originally posted by sirCyco
I know I'm not supposed to out this sort of ideology but, what are ya gonna do? I'm rule breaker. I'm such a scalawag.

If anything you seem to not be a rule breaker...you appear to agree with bush inc.'s decisions on the reasons for this war...

Whatever you have to paint me as to discredit my argument is fine with me. Too bad you can't go back and edit out my posts but if you talk really nice to a moderator maybe you can get them erased so no one can see them. I don't know how anyone could read this post and not think my citicisms of the pres aren't as strong as anyone else's. But thats how you all are..you want to put people in either a pro Bush or Anti Bush catagory when he is but a passing figure in all this. It seems that either you're trying to distract from my overall view or your obsessed with mr. Bush like so many others. he will be out soon but we will still face the same problems. The problem with American politics is that its all smoke and mirrors. Whoever the power behind the scenes wants in gets in. Our votes don't count for crap as proof by the last election which played out as if scripted by Vince McMahon of pro wrestling. Skadi is right about the various organizations which exist for one reason and thats the socialization of the planet and the US is designed to be the financial engine and all of us , slaves to it..ah but you see, the spoiler lies in the middle east. See, its not about one side or the other. Its not about half the pie verses the other half. Its about many different pieces all pulling a separate way, all making the world weaker and more suseptible. If you're into politics, then you're being played and distracted by either side. Makes no difference.

If you're into politics, then you're being played and distracted by either side. Makes no difference.

AGAIN,you make general presumptions made on no facts....did you read any of my posts????i read all your posts and would never want to ask a moderator to erase them..your just being a fool now...making presumtions on my political agenda like your so much smarter and informed than the rest of us...when i aked you to elaborate on your opinion that the muslims are out for world genocide against all that dont convert,i ask you to elaborate but you declined......my point is that you agree with what "the current administration" is doing regardless of bush being president....you think the muslims started this mess???? nope ..sorry thats foolish and they are not the enemy our own goverment seems to be out to do as much harm as possible..stop being so arrogant..

dont fight guys hehe. So this means that a. there are no chemial, biological or nucleair weapons found in iraq, like 'some people' already though. now theres all of a sudden no link between al qaida and hussein like 'some people' already thought. Maybe next time the UN should be given a bit more respect :]]] So Bush and his clicka of fools attacked a 'harmless innocent' country, like there are many in this world. So its only about the oil ? This is something i cant really understand, maybe someone can shine some light on this in a serious way. As far as i know these oil reservoir are already being exploited by different companies, before the war already. Like shell but iam not shure bout this..and lazy too :]
Can it be the weapons industry thats also behind it, or maybe its just Bush trying to look serious to be re ellected, something that with this foolish actions lately hopefully never will happen....or maybe hes just mad, i go for the latter

What is there to elaborate on? I don't need to present evidence to draw a conclusion for something they openly proclaim. Just ask one. When someone tells you they want to kill you, do you need to do an investigation and provide tons of circumstancial evidence to back them up? No. They want us dead and have already gotten a damn good start. They attacked once, intend to do it again and again until we're no more. They make no bones about telling us this either. They don't deny but rather proclaim it. I didn't make this up. Its already began and continues. Why do you think that damn dog is sniffing your bags at the airport. It ain't because he likes you. I don't need a plane to fall on me to believe what they say. they have already and continue to prove it.

Seekerof: "the DoD is is saying that there is NO NEW evidence...not that there is no evidence period.....DoD is covering its azz.
This article gave the leftist anti-war folks a chance to go *Whew*

Bush and the administration have long said that they might not have no evidence to connect Saddam to 9/11 BUT has made clear, for quite sometime, that there is NO question that Saddam/Iraq had Al-Qaeda ties..............."

WHAT?! If there were ANY links between Al Qaeda and Iraq (as the Bush Administration claimed, without proof), then they would be shouting it from the rooftops in Washington.

IF they had the proof then they would publish it, OF COURSE they would. Why would they bury something that they've been TRYING to prove for a long time? You're not making sense.

They've lied to you about so much else, and you've swallowed it, but when the Department of Defense says that a report is INACCURATE, you claim that they're covering up for something, and that there IS in fact proof, even though nobody has seen it.

Not very logical.


jakomo

planes have been falling since the early 70's.......why didnt they start any wars then??? again i would like to know why exactly the islamic leaders in the middle east hate us so much?....which is primarley my point.....its because we asked for it...we brought this on our selves and there is no "good" reason for occuping iraq......they didnt pose any threat to us and these suicide bombing are a terroristic problem that actually poses no "real" threat to national security.....again...i would like to hear how you think the muslims plan to take over the world which you have claimed is a real threat...real enough to goto war with a country whose leader was NOT a radical islamic leader...but rather an easy targert with vast oil fields that we now control...

edit: when i say we, I mean the united states goverment



[Edited on 11-19-2003 by sirCyco]

maybe i better understand this kiddish fighting if someone tells me who they mean with we ? So u astro claim that the muslims want to kill us all ? Hihi, tja thats a nice excuse to kill them...i think this is not true, i mean i see muslims and never ever did one try to kill me...i think this generalisation is not nice, besides who started killing ? Wasnt it the US of A ? Guess so, man they already tried to wipe out all indians..cause they wanted to kill you right ?... Now its muslims,

True sirCyco, u've asked to be hated :] i mean the usa offcourse..and you will be hated more if you continu like this..

Um, Jozeph.....

The USA has been hated regardless of what we do. Just ask Jakomo, or Fulcrum (where is my cellphone boming little munchkin anyway?)

We shall be hated, and no, WE did not ask to be hated. Our govornment did. They dont care.

Regardless, its not a matter of who hates us, thier hate matters not. Only that we pursue a policy of rational isolationism, security, and a withdrawal from the world at large. Whatever the world thinks, they can rot in hell. The important thing is that we heal ourselves and forget "policing" or "liberating" or other Bu#e nonsense.

Astrocreep is not stupid. He has the right idea, just aimed in the wrong direction. Thats not a major problem. The real problem is for idiots to support our current path of suicide that we are speeding on.

Originally posted by sirCyco
planes have been falling since the early 70's.......why didnt they start any wars then??? again i would like to know why exactly the islamic leaders in the middle east hate us so much?....which is primarley my point.....its because we asked for it...we brought this on our selves and there is no "good" reason for occuping iraq......they didnt pose any threat to us and these suicide bombing are a terroristic problem that actually poses no "real" threat to national security.....again...i would like to here how you think the muslims plan to take over the world which you have claimed is a real threat...real enough to goto war with a country whose leader was NOT a radical islamic leader...but rather an easy targert with vast oil fields that we now control...

Why do they hate us?

Hmm. lets see. Because we live lives with liberties that they don't think we should have. Again, their reasons , not mine. We don't obey their religious rites and follow their doctrine. To a fanatic, thats reason enough. So, if by ignoring the way we're told they want us to live is bringing it on ourselves, then I guess that is technically the case. So score one for you.

How do they plan to take over the world?

Well, I think terrorism is working out pretty good for them so far. they did manage to nearly cripple the entire country's economy with one swift blow..so as they say, ya gotta stick with what works. Plus, I don't think their into developing biologic weapons for scientific discovery and the good of humanity..but I could be wrong...I guess...and whens the last time you heard one turn down a "Nukular" weapon. he'd be like "Na'h" we're dropping that whole blow up the US thing for a while". Yeah , right.


Why did Bush attack Saddam because of all this?

because he was on the outs with the Saudis but he was also a big source financial backing for Bin Laden ...and whether he was or not, its easier to control all the different factions of them when you control the very epicenter of the whole area. Iraq is a stratigic point for more reasons than just the oil. If I remember right, we pulled our base of of Saudi Arabia, albeit very quietly and relocated it in Iraq where the US will now install a puppet regime and maintain control through it.

Okay, thats lunch. Who wants pulled pork BBQ? No one? Okay, more for me!

Because we live lives with liberties that they don't think we should have. Again, their reasons , not mine. We don't obey their religious rites and follow their doctrine.

you honestly believe this is the only reason they are attacking us?? i think its the other way around..we have put our western prejudices upon then and they are tired of it and are fighting back the only way they can.


Plus, I don't think their into developing biologic weapons for scientific discovery and the good of humanity..

the U.S. is into biological weapons for the good of humanity???? who is???

because he was on the outs with the Saudis but he was also a big source financial backing for Bin Laden ...and whether he was or not, its easier to control all the different factions of them when you control the very epicenter of the whole area. Iraq is a stratigic point for more reasons than just the oil. If I remember right, we pulled our base of of Saudi Arabia, albeit very quietly and relocated it in Iraq where the US will now install a puppet regime and maintain control through it.


this makes more sense than us being over there just becuase muslims are attempting genocide upon the whole world if they do not convert....but still...saudi is still muslem...they have obvious links to terrorism...why not just take them over and keep their oil money...its EXACTLY what we are doing in iraq...only saudi has more obvious links to terrorism then iraq ever did...



[Edited on 11-19-2003 by sirCyco]

i dont think its because your americans that you are 'hated' yeah now its like that but u kinda did it yourself and when i talk about u i mean offcourse the elected gouverment...not the people in the states but i have to say also, thats why i said elected, you choose em..thats your liberty...so your liberty wich u claims makes you being hated makes it wors for urself.
Like i said, the indians, its in american history and dont say, euh not me...most people do think alike and thats why the gov gets votted offcourse..
I think the states started it themself, not 0only now but also before in history. I think america cant and doesnt respect other peoples opinion, or the way they life..If u dont life and act like your average american your the enemy

All you need to do is read history to see why the U.S. is so hated around the world.

Toppling people's democratic governments and then turning around and claiming to PROMOTE democracy tends to get people pretty pissed.

Focusing on OUSTING some dictators while funding and propping up other dictatorial regimes across the globe tends to get people a little riled.


How would YOU feel if during the next Presidential election, the Chinese government contributed millions of dollars to one party and endeavoured to help them win the election irregardless of any U.S. laws?

It's unfortunate that US citizens have to pay the price for decisions made by their government "in their name".

jakomo

Originally posted by Jakomo


How would YOU feel if during the next Presidential election, the Chinese government contributed millions of dollars to one party and endeavoured to help them win the election irregardless of any U.S. laws?

jakomo

Hey, that happened in the 90s and you're right, it wasn't an ideal situation and because of it, the world now faces a threat from them. Look, I am not defending our politicians..none of them. We have instance after instance, (like the one above) when they've sold out our country's best interests for money. Our current administration is no better but the fact that we struggle more everyday to retain the liberities that militant Muslims hate us for is a different argument in itself. What this whole damn argument boils down to is this...

Bottom line, they want us dead, we don't want to die.

Regardless of how much you tell us its our fault, we're still not going to die willingly. Now, if it were money or land or something tangible we were fighting over, then maybe we could appease...but people, you are arguing for a whole country(s) to submit themselves to hellish torture and death and I'm so friggin sorry but its not going to happen willingly.

Its a stalemate that will likely end in one of two ways because they sure as hell aren't going to be appeased by anything less and we are gonna continue to live until we die (Duh).

Now thats my last word on this subject because no matter what we all say or do, its not amounting to a hill of beans to change it now is it?

It's a useless argument. Is anyone arguing to them that they might stop trying to kill us and see if we can work it out? Hell, no! We might offend them because their religious belief is that they must kill us and we can't go stepping on that so all you Americans and Britains, and Germans, and French..ect. who don't choose to confrom just need to die..Go ahead, die.

Appeasment is for suckers.

..but people, you are arguing for a whole country(s) to submit themselves to hellish torture and death and I'm so friggin sorry but its not going to happen willingly.


Oh please!!...there are no islamic militants attacking my house!! and when{they never will} they do..then i will load up my gun and start blasting...untill then{which will never happen} we should stay out of the middle east where we obviously dont belong and are not wanted by any country there..

Originally posted by sirCyco
..but people, you are arguing for a whole country(s) to submit themselves to hellish torture and death and I'm so friggin sorry but its not going to happen willingly.


Oh please!!...there are no islamic militants attacking my house!! and when{they never will} they do..then i will load up my gun and start blasting...untill then{which will never happen} we should stay out of the middle east where we obviously dont belong and are not wanted by any country there..

hihi start blasting, isnt that the american way of life..maybe u think about that and then ask why..and why stay out of the middle east ? if u use normal sense and act normal i dont see a problem for u going there. If u didnt frok it up in the first place :]
Not wanted by any country there, wanted in wich way ? going there and tell em what to do ? no indeed, that actually the big problem

astrocreep: "Regardless of how much you tell us its our fault, we're still not going to die willingly. Now, if it were money or land or something tangible we were fighting over, then maybe we could appease...but people, you are arguing for a whole country(s) to submit themselves to hellish torture and death and I'm so friggin sorry but its not going to happen willingly"

Whoa, back up the paranoia bus. A whole country to submit themselves to heliish torture and death?

Did anyone read Osama bin Laden's original memo as to why he attacked the US? His list of demands? He wanted the US troops out of Saudi Arabia, he wanted nationhood for Palestine, he wanted American interests out of the Middle East.

His demands are even REASONABLE, though he obviously went about it in a terrible, evil way.

NOBODY hates the US because "we're free". That doesn't even make any sense. Does your average Afghani mujaheddin give a rat's butt that Cletus in Mississippi is free to do what he wants? Hell, no, this is the Administration's reasoning, not the terrorists.

"They hate us because of our freedoms"

Pah. They hate us because we stick our noses in their business to "further American interests" while not caring a whit about who it affects as long as the good ole U S of A comes out ahead. Of COURSE that's going to eventually backfire.


jakomo

question, do the people in the states elect there goverment...looks stupid right, that question. Well after reading this topic i wonder..

if anybody attacks my home im going to defend it...whether its a burglar
or a islamic terroist im going to fight back....but nobody has as of yet so my guns stay locked up till hunting season

[Edited on 11-19-2003 by sirCyco]