The Holocaust happend...why does it matter so politically?

I think the Holocaust should be remembered for all the people that died, not just the Jewish. By focusing only on a single group that have been mistreated, it only acts to ignore the plight of any others.

I would also advise teaching about every other genocide in history. Africa is a prime example: From Britains first use of Concentration camps during the Boer War, to their subsequent implimentation of religion, which spawned civil war in Rwanda, Uganda, Ethiopia, Somalia...
Or we could learn about the hundreds of thousands of Aborigines that were slaughtered by the British in Australia, the small-poxing of Native American Indians, the rape of the Aztecs and Mayans by the Spanish and Portuguese, the destruction of the Kurds under Saddams regime, Polpots genocide in Cambodia, the Japanese invasion of China and the subsequent genocide....
This is all I can remember off the top of my head. Point being, to put the importance of one nation above another is injustice worse than the initial crime.

I think you forgot about the Native American Indians and all those who were slaughtered by the US Cavalry.

Originally posted by fritz
I think you forgot about the Native American Indians and all those who were slaughtered by the US Cavalry.

Well indeed, the good ol' Cavalry where the "Savages" practice of scalping infact originated. The list does go on for a while, especially if you include mass murder committed under the guise of war. From Mai Lai to Hiroshima, the West has always found an excuse for the extermination of millions.

And the development of the HIV virus and its subsequent unleashing upon Africa has killed millions already, and doesn't appear to be stopping. But if you don't believe that was manufactured for such a purpose, then feel free to believe that our people enjoy sexual relationships with primates, on a grand scale.

Wasn't the main goal of Zionism to save Jews from the Holocaust?

"In 1938 a thirty-one nation conference was held in Evian, France, on resettlement of the victims of Nazism. The World Zionist Organization refused to participate, fearing that resettlement of Jews in other states would reduce the number available for Palestine." John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."

The use of the Holocaust for political gain

"[In 1947] the U.N. appointed a special body, the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP), to make the decision over Palestine and UNSCOP members were asked to visit the camps of Holocaust survivors. Many of these survivors wanted to emigrate to the United States, a wish that undermined the Zionist claims that the fate of European Jewry was connected to that of the Jewish community in Palestine. When UNSCOP representatives arrived at the camps, they were unaware that backstage manipulations were limiting their contacts solely to survivors who wished to emigrate to Palestine," Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe in "The Link," January March 1998.

"Inside the DP camps, emissaries from the Yishuv organized survivor activity - crucially, the testimony the DPs gave to the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry and the UN Special Committee on Palestine about where they wished to go...The Jewish Agency envoys reported home that they had been successful in preventing the appearance of 'undesirable' witnesses at the hearings. One wrote his girlfiend in Palestine that 'we have to change our style and handwriting constantly so that they will think that the questionaires were filled in by the refugees.'"Peter Novick, "The Holocaust in American Life."

Victimology

"Jewish proponents of the 'victim' card are aware not only of its social effectiveness but of its usefulness as a means of insuring Jewish solidarity and, hence, survival. If we were forever hated by all and are doomed to be forever hated by all, then we'd best stick together and make the best of it...Personally, I have never found this view of the eternally-hating gentile to have any resemblance with reality. It seems a myth, pure and simple, and an ugly one at that.

"Is it a good means of social control? Perhaps, but at what cost? It strips the faith and history of Jew and gentile alike of all but their months of antagonism. It wallows in evil imagery and postulates a forever morally superior Jew, victimized by the forever morally inferior 'goy'..I have spent most of my adult life among Hasidic Jews, almost all of whom were Holocaust survivors, and I've heard almost nothing of the of the relentless harping on victimology and our need to forever memorialize it...(Victimology) allows Jews to bypass their own faith and offers the national allegiance of Holocaust/Israel in its place." Rabbi Mayer Schiller, quoted in "Issues of the American Council for Judaism," Summer 1998.

does anyone know an approximate number of Jewish people worldwide before ww2? I could be (and probably am) completely wrong but if 6 million died during the war was there really enough to populate a whole country after the war?

the holocaust happened, yes

and the original shock & disgust has long since given way to a corrupted version of grief, rememberance...that's become a cottage industry with political support - Holocaust Museums

if one googles up holocaust museums, you'll find there are many
money making enterprises flourishing all over the planet, devoted as holocaust museums.
Israel, London, NM, also in NYC....(just to point ot a few)
there was a recently ?arsoned? museum called "CANDLES'
(Children of Auschwitz-Nazi's Deadly Lab Experiments Survivors)
an article called the museum [...a place of enlightenment and virtue]
-. see NYT link, 25 Nov 2006

books & movies are other ways of capturing your almighty dollars
?"Shindler's List"...comes to mind, it was-not a box-office failure



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in response to the response that Nazi Germany did not have the resources
needed to keep perpetual fires going to burn the corpses....

? have you barbequed lately?
the (whatever is left) fat & sinews that the forced labor victims had,
after being gassed & shoved into incinerators,
dripped down onto the coals/peat/cinders/fuel source
~much like that burger or chicken carcass does on your grill~
& caused a 'flame up'
which aided in the fiery consumption of the stacked like logs, corpses

reminds one of the 'wick effect' in the study of spontaneous-human-combustion phenomena

The "furnace theory" is critical to the "homicidal gas chamber theory". There are plenty of mass graves that have been excavated and all the victims appear to have died from disease, over work, and gunshots. None of the victims that were dug up show any signs of zyklon B poisoning (the homicidal gas chamber at Aushwitz also shows no Zyklon B residue, which is strange for the 24/7 usage required to kill 1.1 million people).

They use the furnace idea to explain why no gassing victims have been found.

Why would the Germans waste precious petroleum burning bodies? Especially considering the shortage. Why would they sacrifice their war machine just to burn bodies? To cover up evidence of war crimes? Why didn't they burn all the other bodies then? Why didnt they burn the camps? For such a large scale operation of gassing and burning jews, how come there is no paperwork that would be required to enforce protocols for such policies? How come the germans, the most anal retentive engineers on the planet, didnt include the furnaces on their blueprints?

Why would they only burn the jews they gassed? This little tidbit is especially insulting to jews as cremation is considered obscene to their faith. This would be a convenient tool for political manipulations.

Burning a human body requires intense heat and flame reaching temperatures between 1,400 and 1,800 degrees fahrenheit. It takes approximately 50-60 gallons of petroleum to burn each body of around 150 pounds. The process usually takes about 3 hours to burn flesh, and much much longer if you wish to "burn" bone. In modern cremation, the bones are crushed up and put into an urn and called ashes. This entire process requires massive amounts of petroleum, regardless of human fats present. The more fats or other mass present, the longer it actually takes to burn a body.

It makes no sense to me why they would waste petroleum burning bodies when they could just as easily bury the bodies with all the rest in mass graves...

Burning 100 pounds of flesh usually results in about 3 pounds of bone dust. To burn 20,000 people a day would leave at least 60,000 pounds or 30 tons of dust each day that they need to get rid of somehow. What did they do? Bury it? Where? Why has none of this massive stockpile of dust ever been unearthed?

Burning bodies is absolutely required to support the homicidal gas chamber theory, and hence the only reason why anybody believes it occurred. There is no hard evidence to support the theory.

The germans did not have the supply of petroleum needed to carry out such an operation. They were so desperate for oil that they invented ways of extracting diesel from coal. You're telling me that the anal retentive, encircled, oil thirsty Nazis were wasting their precious petroleum to burn bodies at the expense of their war machine?

sp00n1 your post really surprises me, to say the least. You speak as if you had personal experience of dead bodies, crematoria and human remains. However, these are the official facts:

The Allgemeine-SS dealt mainly with police and 'racial' matters. It also had it’s own branch of the Totenkopfverbande who administered all death and concentration camps.

1. The Nazi Concentration Camp

From the outset, the Nazi Racial machine built concentration camps in Germany shortly after Hitler came to power and Dachau, established in 1933, became the model on which all camps were built.

These camps were designed to take enemies of the state, common crminals or sexual deviants[rapists and child molesters]. Camps were built at Oranienberg [Berlin], Dachau [Munich], Esterwegen [Hamburg] and Lichtenburg [Lower-Saxony].

By 1939, the Nazi political machine had established a further 5 main concentration camps at Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald, Mauthausen, Flossenbuerg, Bergen-Belsen and Ravensbruck.

As the war progressed, in order to facilitate the imprionment of enemies of the state, the Nazis built new camps at Gusen [1939], Natzweiler [1940], Auschwitz [1940], Gross-Rosen [1940], Stutthof [1942] and
Majdanek [1943].

2. The Nazi Death Camps

Chelmno near Warthegau [occupied Poland] was open by December 1941, where mostly German jews and Romany Gypsies were gassed in mobile vans;

Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka opened in 1942, where Jews were systematically gassed to death with carbon monoxide from diesel engines, in specially made chambers;

Auschwitz-Birkenau, was open by 1943. Jews from all over occupied Europe were gassed in four main gas chambers, with Zyklon 'B';

Majdanek, was another concentration camp turned death camp. Up to 200,000 Jews, Russian and Polish POWs and civilians were killed there by gas, shootings, hangings and brutal beatings and torture.

3. The Allgemeine-SS and commercial enterprise

From early on, the Nazi death machine made use of all the parts of the human body, even after death;

The Allgemeine-SS made big businesses and profits by exploiting their captives for Teeth [gold and silver], hair [wigs], flesh [plastic surgery], blood [transfusions], bones and ashes [fertilizer] and from 1941, captives were used as forced labour to make up shortfalls in German industry.

In many cases, captives were literally worked to death! Sometimes, profitability was so good, that local SS commanders made commercial contracts with big business such as the infamous I.G Farben synthetic rubber plant at Auschwitz - established in 1942;

Mauthausen sub camp Wiener-Neudorf provided forced labour for a local aircraft factory; At Sosnowitz - a sub camp pf Auschwitz, prisoners were forced to mine coal in appalling conditions whilst rockets and their warheads were built and assembled at Dora-Mittelbau, another sub camp.

4. Removing the evidence

There is little doubt that from 1942 onwards, the Nazi extermination machine began to find ways of destroying the evidence of it's mass murder.

For example at Chelmno, the bodies were buried in mass graves which were then camouflaged with bushes and trees; At Sobibor, bodies were buried in massed graves and simply covered with turf; Treblinka however was so efficient at killing people that the mass graves quickly filled up. The camp commandant ordered the Sonderkommando to dig up the bodies and burn them in specially prepared burning trenches - the resulting ash being sold commercially as fertiliser.

As the Russians slowly advanced through occupied Poland and moved towards the camps the Nazi, fearful that their secrets would be exposed, started a mass exodus from the camps.

These were to be later known as the Death Marches and hundreds of thousands of prisoners died from starvation, exhaustion, illness and of course the Allgemeine-SS guards simply shot those who fell behind or could not keep up.

[edit on 4-1-2007 by fritz]

There is a meeting about the Holocaust in Edinburgh this month (24th January, 7pm-9pm at Augustine Church, George IV Bridge.
Organised by the SPSC (Scottish Palestinian Solidarity Campaign) it has public speakers talking about all of the other minorities murdered during the Holocaust and asks the questions "Why should the suffering of all these other victims be belittled and covered up, in an attempt to justify Israel's theft of Palestine?"

It seems an interesting event and I'd recommend a visit by any other Edinburgh based people on ATS.com

Originally posted by Subcomandante
There is a meeting about the Holocaust in Edinburgh this month (24th January, 7pm-9pm at Augustine Church, George IV Bridge.
Organised by the SPSC (Scottish Palestinian Solidarity Campaign) it has public speakers talking about all of the other minorities murdered during the Holocaust and asks the questions "Why should the suffering of all these other victims be belittled and covered up, in an attempt to justify Israel's theft of Palestine?"

It seems an interesting event and I'd recommend a visit by any other Edinburgh based people on ATS.com

Your sentance, "Why should the suffering of all these other victims be belittled and covered up, in an attempt to justify Israel's theft of Palestine?", leaves very little room for maneouvre but it does give a very biggoted view.

May I respectfully suggest that you read my earlier posts on this subject or indeed, make your own investigations into the ancient history of Canaan and Galilee and my friend, you could very well be in for a very big surprise.

Originally posted by fritz
Your sentance, "Why should the suffering of all these other victims be belittled and covered up, in an attempt to justify Israel's theft of Palestine?", leaves very little room for maneouvre but it does give a very biggoted view.

May I respectfully suggest that you read my earlier posts on this subject or indeed, make your own investigations into the ancient history of Canaan and Galilee and my friend, you could very well be in for a very big surprise.

Not a quote of mine I'm afraid, but of the SPSC. I just felt I should put their view down for anybody interested in visiting. They do support alot of anti-zionist speakers and groups, be that for good or ill. Personally, I have problems with the way Israel has set itself up in the Middle East, history aside. Therefore, I'm willing to listen to what the speakers have to say, even if I don't wholeheartedly agree with their rhetoric.

Really?..........................

Well I am afraid it does not read or come across like that.

Perhaps you should have said something like, 'The quote I have just written was by............................. and in no way do I subscribe to his or her views'.

There, much better.

I'm not saying all jews are bad...
But just don't trust the zionist jews!!!

Look what they have been doing to the palestines for over fifty years. They created a holocaust for palestines!!!

In the time of the WW2 their where a high percentage of jews in the government of Russia. And they made the story of the holocaust strong at the nuremburg proces..

The holocaust has happend, but it was not what most people think about it.
They have been exaggerating the story in favor of the jews to get a proffit from WW2. And that profit is ISRAEL

Now call me whatever you want. I've said what I wanted to say, and that's the truth.
Any geniune revisionist will say the same thing, although they would be more carefull with their statements.

Originally posted by fritz
Really?..........................

Well I am afraid it does not read or come across like that.

Perhaps you should have said something like, 'The quote I have just written was by............................. and in no way do I subscribe to his or her views'.

There, much better.

Maybe, except I wouldn't consider myself against what they are saying. I don't agree with broad anti-semetic vitriol against all Jews, but it's nonsense if I'm not allowed to condemn what the Israeli forces are doing in the Middle East for fear of being labelled a religious bigot.

Here is an intresting video about Aschwitz.

A jewish guy taking the tour, watching around and asking questions to the guide and the scientists.
The truth behind the gates of auschwitz

Have an educational hour


[edit on 9-1-2007 by buddhaLight]

Yes, buddah!!

That video is an absolute must see for anybody that wants to know the truth!!

It raises some very disturbing questions that can no longer just be swept under the carpet!!

When will people let go of their misguided ideologies and embrace the fact that all of us are nothing more than pawns in a global game of corporate plutocracy?

If it's happened, I'm not going to make theories this time, but the numbers are surely not correct. According to the known Jewish population data of 1938 and 1939, their population was 15 million. Now somehow the population data is not really correct of the year 1945, which says, there were 15, 2 million Jewish people. It's been released after the war. So, if 6 million have been killed, how is it possible, that they were more with app. 200,000. And these are valid data. You can search after it in libraries and maybe on the net too.

Just throwing it out there, have any of you seen Mr. Death by Errol Morris? He's a great documentary film-maker, consistently brilliant, he also did "The Thin Blue Line." For those who have not, Mr. Death is the story of Fred Leuchter. I'm sure some of the posters here know who he is, and probably have read his "Leuchter Report." Spoon1 and Buddhalite I'm looking in your general direction. This is a great film that everyone on any side of whatever perspective you have regarding the Holocaust (none of us were there, so we can only extrapolate) should see. It's a great piece of film-making, once again Errol Morris doesn't dissapoint.

My thoughts, and I am open, suprisingly enough, as to what the actual death-toll was as a result of the Nazi death-machine, and the Jewish population is one sub-set perhaps of a larger population, but it is clear from all of the Nazi propoganda (like Leni Riefenstahl's films) that the "Jewish question" was a primary rallying point for the National Socialist Party. Certainly the Jews were singled out, for reasons that have never been satisfactorily explained to me. Certainly others were as well, but the bulk of Nazi films I have seen single out the Jews, and suprisingly enough singled out the Rothschild family in one particular film I saw, which seemed a little strange due to the trail of funding that kept the war machine going in Germany. So maybe it wasn't 6 million Jews that died during WWII. So what? I don't care if it was 6 thousand, that is still too many. I don't like any sort of genocide, whether it is happening is Armenia or Tibet. Squabbling over the death-toll is a pointless venture, death is death, and tyranny is tyranny. I know people are going to say "what about Palestine?" Which I also don't understand. I'm not sure that there ever was a proper "Palestine." Sounds like it might be a myth that the Muslims came up with. Who knows? I don't have the credentials to scientifically discern what the Jewish death-toll was during WWII, and neither would I want to. If by trying to lessen the body-count, it is thought that somehow the attrocity is lessened, then your thinking is lacking in the most important area. If 10 people died in the Concentration camps, gyspy or jew or queer or smurfs, it doesn't matter-- it is too many. Arguing over the details does nothing for the dead.


This question is obviously not going to be settled on this forum. I am not against exploring these sort of questions, but I wonder what sort of fruit it will bear, if any. Whether you deny the holocaust happened or not (which largely doesn't matter), the deaths that occured in Germany from civilians/non-combatants is an attrocity according to the Geneva Conventions-- but who follows the Geneva Conventions anymore? Certainly not the US.

It seems like it is possible that the Nazis were most likely the first holocaust deniers-- they denied it while it was happening. I'm no expert, but it seems like this was something that they were trying to down-play even at the time they were doing it, because it was bad for PR. Isn't that a loose defination of "black opps" afterall? Just a possibility...

Hitler also had Jewish ancestory. Just because someone's a Jew doesn't mean the person wouldn't attack one's own bloodline for some gain. It is a matter of to whom or what someone is loyal.

I have long had the theory that the United States did not really want to save the Jews within those camps. It just sort of happened that way and they could not get rid of them. So they knew that setting up Israel would cause great conflict between the Jews and Arabs and was hoping they would finish each other off all while maintaining a better public relations image.

My family had to pretend to not be Jewish to get into the United States before Hitler and did all it could to hide its Jewish ancestory. I did not find out I descended from Jewish roots until I had to trace my family history for a college class. The United States was in no way pro-Jew back then. I have never been able to find out from which country the family came. It was not passed down. I find it hard to believe that the United States was so anti-Jew one year and did a total turn around that quickly.

judicial-inc.biz...

We take an old neighboring widow lady who can't drive, to town once a week so she can buy groceries, eat out, etc., ...every since her husband died. She hates Zionism with a passion, and has enlightened us with regard to the "Shoa" business propaganda. Her family was in several of the "work camps", and the so called "death camps" didn't exist... her family survived and after the war, immigrated to Canada... then when she became an adult, she immigrated to the States. All my life, I bought into the incessant propaganda... until this old Jewish lady showed me the truth. And so I understand how hard it is to change an accepted belief system, but the level of evidence she has revealed to us, sure trumps the mere claims of the "Shoa business". The above site about Auschwitz jells exactly with her first-hand family's experiences. Be sure to click on the video clips at the above site, too.

Update: I just rechecked the site, and noticed some of the links are now going to propaganda crap. LOL, amazing... I just found the site a few days ago, and already some of the links have been changed towards the Shoa business. Just goes to show, if you build a page... it's best to download info instead of linking to info on outside sites controlled for the Shoa business. The savvy will figure out which links no longer match.

I read an article some months ago, that included pictures showing Israelis working in a large building on banks of computers, whose occupation was to monitor websites, blogs, etc., on the internet. Purpose is to derail or control inconvenient dialog in regards to Zionism or the Shoa business... apparently some of the links not controlled by the maker of the above page, have been changed for "political correctness".

After all, "We must never forget"!


[edit on 29-1-2007 by Surface]