The Holocaust happend...why does it matter so politically?

I couldn't think of what forum to put this in.

This thread shouldn't turn into a flame war but the title is written to argue a point. The exact number killed in death camps during WW2 is unknown but its around 12 million of which 5 or 6 million were Jews.

At this time the conquered nations were just as guilty of send Jews to these camps, even the United States turned away ships of Jewish refugees, thousands back to die in those camps.

But there were more than Jews there. At this time the Japanese had killed approximately 10 million chinese and the Russians killed almost 20 million of their surfs.

So why is it out of this great crises are the Jews the ones we are taught to feel sorry for and give concesions to?

Is it because their homeland was taken 2,000 years ago and they've been scapegoats all these years?

Or is it a powerful Jewish lobby that wants you to never forget what the world did?

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, it's as simple as that....

The Jewish people were not the only ones that went to the ovens, and I don't think you could point out very many nations that haven't tried to exterminate some other group if you look back through history.

I live in Canada, and even here we can't be very proud of how our ancestors treated the indigenous people that lived on this land before we arrived.

The Jews just happen to have a very vocal lobby group that has the backing of the United States. They have a policy in place that reminds the world to "Never Forget", and they have the finances to back that up.

Don't think for a minute that China will ever forget the atrocities committed by the Japanese, and the same goes for any other ethnic group that has faced extermination and brutality at the hands of others.

Sometimes I think the only solution to this constant fighting would be a case of global amnesia.
If only there was some way for everyone to forget the transgressions of their ancestors the world might stop fighting battles started so many years ago.

There are laws in Europe that send you to jail for attempting to discuss alternative holocaust theories. While i certainly do not support neo-nazi's or other nutz, i think these laws are stupid...

For instance, lets say you discover real evidence that it was not 6 million jews killed, but only 5 million... It doesnt matter how good your evidence is, you go to jail...

However, lets say somebody wants to up the number to 12 million, anyone that tries to question the evidence could be sent to jail... This is a direct violation of the scientific method.

I certainly believe the holocaust happened, however i do not think we know all the details. It wasnt just jews killed, there were christians and gypsies and homos and POW's and many political dissident were killed as well... Whenever i mention that i had non-jewish relatives that died in the holocaust, people accuse me of being anti-semitic.

The holocaust was used as a major catalyst for the formation of Isreal, is it not possible that facts were skewed to achieve this purpose? Especially if you look at the fact that the holocaust is taught in schools as mainly jewish genocide, and all the other attrocities against other groups are essentially ignored.

History is written by the winners, is it not possible that some of these atrocities were exhagerated for propaganda purposes?

I have somewhat different views on the holocaust. I am open to hearing other theories. I personally think that Hitler threw any political opponent into the camps, whether they were jewish or not. I think the main purpose of the camps, other than removing political opposition, was slave labor. I do not think the main purpose of these camps was mass extermination. I do believe the holocaust happened and i certainly believe hitler was a scum bag, but i think there is a lot of propaganda and misinformation surrounding the event that is impossible to discuss under the current european laws.

I do not believe the jews were any more the target of hitler than any other religion. The Gestapo threw all sorts of people in there. The way the SS worked was strictly on propaganda, if you've ever seen the movie "A Scanner Darkly" you will understand what i mean.

The SS put fake news stories out every day about how powerful and all knowing they were, "Big Brother is always watching you, so you better behave!" They put out fake stories about big arrests of political dissidents. The affect of this was to turn all citizens into spies. People turned in their friends and families as political dissidents. Eventually it got to the point that if you weren't turning somebody in every week, you would be rounded up yourself.

There were no trials, no evidence, nothing. There was no way for innocent people to protest. People from all religions and walks of life were rounded up and forced to work themselves to death.

A few months ago, a european author wrote a book questioning some of the events surrounding the holocaust. He was put in jail, even though the main premise of his book was essentially true. His book is based around the fact that the gas chamber at Aushwitz is not the original gas chamber. The Aushwitz musuem director now even admits the current one is a fake.

The musuem had always maintained that this gas chamber was the original and that it had been built by the nazis. They said this again and again. However, even a cursory examination of the gas chamber shows glaring flaws. For instance, the chimney is an obvious fake. It is not connected to the furnaces or even to the building. Another problem is that the gas chamber is not air tight, this would kill everybody within 100 yards while it was in operation. Also, the gas chamber does not show up on the plans or MAPS of the original camp from the germans. I dont know if any of you have ever worked with Germans, but they are so anal retentive and detail oriented that to think they would leave something like that out, especially if it is supposedly the main purpose of the camp, is retarded. The ONLY gas chamber that does show up on the original plans is a delousing chamber used to spray clothes for lice. The original can still be found at the camp. It is not possible for this one to be used to kill human beings.

Another problem is fuel consumption for the furnaces. You need lots and lots and lots of fuel for like 12 hours to burn a body... Just ask any crematorium about how the recent spike in energy prices has effected their business... And, if you'll recall the Battle of the Buldge was all about getting petroleum. The germans did not have enough petroleum to waste it on burning bodies.

The Aushwitz musuem was forced to admit that the gas chamber and chimney was built after WW2 by the soviets. But they maintain it was built with original materials and according to the original plans, which they still cannot produce.....

cgi.stanford.edu...

museum director admits on tape that current gas chamber is fake, no evidence exists of "original". The guy that made this video is jewish.
vho.org...

Aushwitz musuem site admits gas chamber was "re-built" Picture shown is at an angle which prevents you from seeing that the chimney is NOT connected to anything. Altough, if you look carefully you can tell the chimney is three feet away from the building...
www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl...

I think there is plenty of reason to investigate what really happened during the holocaust. Especially now that it has been proven that we have been lied to. I personally believe that all sorts of innocent people suffered. I think most people died from over work and disease, not gas chambers. The germans needed slave labor. The germans could not waste energy burning bodies.

I think the Jewish genocide angle was propagated for political purposes. However, i am of course open to other ideas. I dont like hitler, i dont like nazis, i am not anti-semitic. My only interest is in researching history and seeing through political propaganda.

Did you know that;

Hitler received most of his funding from Americans on Wall street?

Prescott Bush (Prez's 'grand-pappy') operated Thyssen Banks that helped finance Hitler and also helped Nazis flee to South America and hide their assets (which is where the Bush family Billions came from)?

A large number of the bankers supporting Hitler were Jewish?

The Bush's have bought up huge plots of land in Paraguay, right after the Prez coerced them into signing American Military Amnesty legislation? So, in other words, Bush is providing himself with a safe haven in South America to hide form all his war crimes, the same way they helped the Nazis flee!!!

I had expected that my comments would draw some criticism...

I welcome you to challenge my beliefs and present any evidence you may have that will help shape my opinions.

I think it matter's politically because like the recent Iran confernace on the "denial" of the event show's prejucdice for Isreal. We all know Iran hate's the Isrealie's, we know most country's neighbouring Isreal hate them right? They never openly admit it...well to us westerner's anyways, but when they go and do smething like this it just proves more and more that Iran is a threat to the jew's. So it's like the Fineall Nail in the coffin you know?

[edit on 26-12-2006 by COWBOYCON]

Anti-zionism is not necessarily anti-semitic. Anti-semitism often results in anti-zionism, but the two are really not the same.

Zionism is the belief that a Jewish state should control the holy land. Its not only anti-semites that have a problem with this, i know lots of hassidic jews that think Isreal is in and of itself anti-semitic and goes against the ways of judiasm.

Thou shalt not steal! Thou shalt not worship idols!

Worshiping a piece of land is idolotry. I dont care if it is "the holy land".

Isreal is nothing more than a modern day crusade.

Jews lived alongside arabs in palastine just fine before the UN came in and stole the land. There was no reason to go and muck things up. The region was fairly peaceful before western imperialism decided they knew what was best.

And obviously, things have gone so well since isreal took over....

There are lots of hassidic jews that publicly protest Isreal, however the media does not publicize this fact so as to maintain the illusion that anyone that is anti-zionism is also anti-semitic.

I feel that the holocaust like any other sad and dark chapter in the history of humanity should have the same importance as any other happenings of the same magnitude.

It should no be priorities when it comes to the lost of mankind due to power struggles, famine, wars and genocides.

As long as sizable amounts of human lives are lost during one single event created by the powers at the time should have equal amount of importance.

Because I was no born in the US mainland but in one of their territory our history on the holocaust and the Nazis where only covered in schools by its historical importance not by favoritism.

Just like the way we learned about slavery and the American civil movement groups.

So it wasn't until I came to live in US mainland that I saw how much priority this issues were given over other historical facts around the world that has impacted humanity just as much or more.

I thought that it was very interesting how certain parts of history were prioritized here in the US.

And yes is pure political motivation in it.

To add to the issues Spoon1 had brought up, let us not forget Project Paperclip which secretly brought top nazi scientists into the US to continue their mind control research, (also physicists and a whole host of other scientists). There is an excellent short video on this subject: video.google.com...

There has been established an undeniable link between Prescott Bush and powerful central bankers in the US investing/loaning money to the Germans in WW2. Aside from being greedy bastards with no regard for human life, part of the logic was that it was understood that whichever side one the war would pay off the debts of the other side, so it was a win-win situation.

Another interesting note, the parent company of IBM used their early punch-card computer systems to catalog and manage the people in the labor camps in Germany during WW2. Hence the 12 digit tattoos, this was a cataloging method, and all of the vital statistics of a prisoner were fed into these early punch-card systems, and would calculate based on different factors how long that person was useful in a labor context, and when they became no longer profitable and were ready to send to the concentration camps for extermination.

I hear all of this saber-rattling regarding the Jews. The fact of the matter is, the US is what we should be more concerned about in terms of a history and propensity to propagate evil on the world (or more specifically the shadowy elite who have been pulling the strings safely hidden behid closed doors). Israel isn't going to usher in the NWO, the US and UN are.

The Jews were being systematically exterminated.

Russia's 20 million deaths were due to war, cold, starvation and disease.

There is a big difference between the two.

Originally posted by ferretman2
The Jews were being systematically exterminated.

Russia's 20 million deaths were due to war, cold, starvation and disease.

There is a big difference between the two.

Sorry, but that's just plain wrong.

There were camps in the so called Gulags long before the Germans invaded Russia. What would the world have said if Hitler and Germany had won and showed what was going on in Russia.

Even now, there is still some debate as to what happened at or in the Katyn Woods - the Russians blame the Nazis, but I think it was them killing off any desenting Polish officers.

As the the Holocaust, my aunt Joan - a Catholic Nun, betrayed by some French bloke in Paris, was taken to No 5 Avenue Foch where she was tortured by the gestapo.

From there, she was sent to Auschwitz but for some reason, was passed on to Ravensbruck and finally with some other Nuns, to Bergen-Belsen [to tend the sick] where, in 1945, 1 SAS liberated her and thousands like her.

She never said anything about what happened during her stay in the camps but, renounced her religion in 1950, as she could not come to terms with what she had seen.

Today, she is 98 and holds no grudge and bears no malice towards the Germans for what they did to millions of Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Cripples, Mental patients or enemies of the state.

But what she does want, is for the world to remember the millions that died in that war and in those camps and for it never to happen again, to anybody.

Originally posted by sp00n1
Did you know that;

Hitler received most of his funding from Americans on Wall street?

Prescott Bush (Prez's 'grand-pappy') operated Thyssen Banks that helped finance Hitler and also helped Nazis flee to South America and hide their assets (which is where the Bush family Billions came from)?


The Bush's have bought up huge plots of land in Paraguay, right after the Prez coerced them into signing American Military Amnesty legislation? So, in other words, Bush is providing himself with a safe haven in South America to hide form all his war crimes, the same way they helped the Nazis flee!!!

Link x 3.

Thanks.

Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler
reformed-theology.org...

George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography
www.tarpley.net...

Heir to the Holocaust
www.clamormagazine.org...

London Guardian - How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power
www.guardian.co.uk...

London Guardian - Jenna Bush Buys Half of Paraguay
www.guardian.co.uk...

Originally posted by fritz

Even now, there is still some debate as to what happened at or in the Katyn Woods - the Russians blame the Nazis, but I think it was them killing off any desenting Polish officers.

I dont think there is much debate. I think it has been unequivocally confirmed that the Russians did it and framed the Nazis. Which brings up the whole subject of all the other evidence brought against the nazis at Nuremberg by the soviets, much of which has now been discredited.

The "official" Soviet figures for Jews exterminated at Aushwitz was 4.4 million. However, in the 80's the number was finally revised down to 1.1 million because the 4.4 million number was absolutely ridiculous, the rate at which people would have needed to have been exterminated was just not possible.

So what if the numbers do not add up?

Are you suggesting that because the numbers are incorrect or inaccurate that the Holocaust may be founded on false accusations?

Are you also expecting people like me who have a direct link to the Holocaust, to be outraged any the less?

The 4 million Jews spoken about I think, is the total number of Jews murdered by gas, shootings, hangings, torture and by being buried alive or starved to death, throughout the Nazi death and labour camps.

I also believe that the correct figure is probably nearer the 6 or 7 million mark, if one takes into account, all the other undesirables the Nazis were determined to exterminate.

In any case, numbers do not matter. What matters is that it was expedient in 1942/3 when the allies first learnt about the death camps, that they allowed the camps to carry on with their evil murder.

The official number oh jews killed is around 5 or 6 million...

The 4.4 million figure i was referring to was just the number of homicidal gas chamber victims reported at Auschwitz by the soviets. The "new" 1.1 million number is figured into the "5 or 6 million" number that currently stands.

My point is that if the Soviets were going to lie so outrageously about the number of victims at Auschwitz and fabricate all sorts of evidence, then maybe we need to re-examine a number of the claims that were made in the post war hysteria that are obviously propaganda.

Have you watched this film? The guy that made it is Jewish, so hes def not anti-semitic.
vho.org...

Im not trying to excuse the Nazis. They were scum... However, a number of the claims made against them are obvious fabrications. For historical sake, i prefer to know the truth.

The holocaust happened but the stats are irrelevent to me.

What is more important is that the world should never forget and must not let history repeat itself. Hello ? History is repeating itself but not quite the same way.

I find it ironic that the Isrealis could commit a sort of holocaust against the Palestinians whose land they occupy(illegally) destroying their houses, crops and basically treating them as sub human, breaking the people.

The Israelis are no better than the fascists who decimated so many of their population.

Then would could get into a big rap about China and Tibet. Care to add more ?

Politically important ? Yeah Isreal setup to be the bully in the middle east for the west, and funded by the west.


I am very uneducated, I say what I see.

Originally posted by resistancia
The holocaust happened but the stats are irrelevent to me.

What is more important is that the world should never forget and must not let history repeat itself. Hello ? History is repeating itself but not quite the same way.

I find it ironic that the Isrealis could commit a sort of holocaust against the Palestinians whose land they occupy(illegally) destroying their houses, crops and basically treating them as sub human, breaking the people.

The Israelis are no better than the fascists who decimated so many of their population.

Then would could get into a big rap about China and Tibet. Care to add more ?

Politically important ? Yeah Isreal setup to be the bully in the middle east for the west, and funded by the west.


I am very uneducated, I say what I see.

The following points may be of interest to you:

1. The lands of Canaan included a region called Palestia-nan-ae Anciet or Attic Greek meaning Land of the Phillistines;

2. The land inhabited by the Phillistines are now the modern day Gaza Strip;

3. Modern day translation of the word Palestia-nan-ae is Palestine;

4. Israel has withdrawn from Palestine;

5. When the Romans invaded Canann, 10 Tribes of Israel fled into the countries around them leaving 2 tribes to face the music. In effect, these 10 tribes are the forefathers of countries we know today as Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Iran;

6. Israel is, by no stretch of the imagination, herding millions of arabs into ghettos and shipping them to death and labour camps by rail;

7. The modern Arab leadership could resolve the arab refugee situation by allowing the Jewish Arabs to settle in their countries. That they don't is on record - they prefer to maintain and stir up hatred in those they are sworn to give a home to. [If you don't believe me - try reading the Koran]

8. The Isrealis are not occupying land that is not theirs. If you can be bothered to read up on the subject in museums or on ancient history sites, you will find surprisingly that the 12 Tribes of Israel lived in peace and harmony with Jewish Arabs for thousands of years before the question of Palestine reared its ugly head.

fritz

always happy to be corrected if wrong.

I saw a doc recently about the Turks and Arabs and how the land was given to the Isrealis by the British...not theirs to give as I understood it.

thankyou for sharing the info that will enlighten me further.

Before the UN created modern day Israel, all of that land was "Palestine". Many western jews pilgrimaged there and lived in relative peace with the arabs. The major problems all seemed to have occurred after western imperialism decided for some reason that that land needed to be controlled by a jewish state. I have yet to see any reason why that land needs to be controlled by a jewish government. All i get is hyperbole that amounts to nothing more than a modern day crusade.

Trying to justify the creation of Israel based upon the bible is like trying to say Russia should be returned to the Byzantine Turks, Saudi Arabia should be returned to the Persians, Greece should revert back to ancient Greece, Mexico should be given back to the Aztecs and the Mayans, and the United States of America should be turned into one giant Indian casino where the current American Citizens should be worked as slaves...