Originally posted by Astyanax

Originally posted by ADVISOR
Not sure what is wrong with the "children of today", but I know one thing. If they were drafted (given legal age), they would sure as hell have their acts cleaned up.

Yes, turning people into trained attack dogs for the power elite is very character-forming.

You are mistaken with that statement.

The military would be a great place for teens / young adults to learn to "grow up" and bascially behave and learn some respect for others.

I can't tell you what the military did for me, I came out a new person, even better than when I went in, ( if I may say so myself ).

I swear most kids today are turning into little monsters with no bloody respect. I guess its alot of parents fault, but there so little time to bring up your kids today, it's left to the schools and the streets too.

"Kids! I don't know what's wrong with these kids today." By the way that was a line from Bye Bye Birdie Which is really all this thread reminds me of. I personally think parents should dicipline their kids more. Now a days it's like kids are running around freely "yay mommy lets steal, and swear, and be disrespectful!" and the parents are acting like "ok honey here's some drugs to go with it" I mean this is getting out of hand. I do think that over dicipline like totaly beating a child is wrong, but a few swats on the behind won't kill them. I've seen kids in the store as young as 3 that swear at there mother or hit her and I know that if I did any thing like that at their age I would have been smacked on the butt. My kindergarden principal would threaten us with a wooden paddle or use it if we got sent to her office. I'm not that old either I'm a senior in high school for goodness sake, and I am astonished at how much the kids have changed. Now that I'm older I don't get swated on the behind but I am on a trust system. My dad has said if I do anything against his rules I'm out of his house and he keeps my truck. so far all this dicipline has worked in my life I have been taught right from wrong. to this day I have never stolen, had sex, drank, smoked, used any illegal subtance, or cussed out anyone. ect... I just hope that some parents can get a hold of their kids.

What has happened? The schools are castrated in being able to kick out kids who are bad, violent, disrespectful or disruptive. Parents no longer parent. They expect the schools to handle it, which, they can't

Of course there are plenty of good kids and good parents. The bad ones just ruin it for everyone else

Originally posted by Astyanax

Yes. Why should I lie for a reason as trivial as making a point on an Internet message board?

you tell me, because i dont understand it. but it happens all the time. why dont you ask the admin how many hoaxers they have each month?

I have a life, as it happens. One -- as it happens -- that is under constant and daily threat from uniformed men with guns.

fine, if you say so.

The US won the Cold War by outspending the Soviet Union in an arms race at a time when the latter's grip on its empire was being challenged from within. Your military didn't win the Cold War. Your economy did.

now that is one of the most naive statements i think i have ever read. every war is won by the country with the better economy. without it, you can not have the military build up that outpaces or out-does technologically your opponent. but at the end of the day, it was the strong military presence that kept the soviets behind their wall. does the berlin airlift ring a bell? how could that have been accomplished without a strong military?

And -- possibly unlike you -- I am old enough to remember the Cold War and the terror it inspired in ordinary people living under the shadow of the Bomb.

possibly not. dont make assumptions....you'll find that you make an ass out of yourself by assuming too much.

The policy of deterrence you tout brought the world to the very brink of nuclear war over and over again.

yes, but in the end, it was the threat of that war which allowed for the peaceful resolution of the cold war.

In your own words, pick up a book, friend. A psychology textbook.

i'd rather educate myself by reading a history book than psycho-babble...if you try that yourself, you might actually become educated as to the benifits of said military. it's all well and good to spout the pros of a utopian society, but i would counter that every single time in history that a civilization became too "civilized" to maintain a strong military, they very soon thereafter ceased to exist. i dont know where you are or what war you claim to be in the middle of, but i do know this much: someone in that war is putting their life on the line for you and your safety. what does that make you?



[edit on 17-1-2007 by snafu7700]

Originally posted by llpoolej
What has happened? The schools are castrated in being able to kick out kids who are bad, violent, disrespectful or disruptive. Parents no longer parent. They expect the schools to handle it, which, they can't

Maybe we should teach the reinforcement of a positive behaviour rather than the punishment of bad behaviour. Young children do not comprehend a physical punishment. Kicking a child out of a class is nothing more than a "vacation". If these "bad" children were taken aside and given an incentive to behave positively, maybe we could see a more reformed classroom.

Parents no longer parent? Broad statement, rather large assumption. True for many, but a stereotype nonetheless.

Originally posted by llpoolej
The bad ones just ruin it for everyone else

Exactly who are the bad children? The children who do not make the best grades and fail to garner any positive support? The children who are forced to act out to receive any sort of attention?

Who exactly is a "bad child"?

I have worked in a Jr High school. I worked in the Resource dept. There was one boy, at age 13 that was 6ft tall and very violent. When he slept at his desk, he was left to sleep. I was instructed to leave him to sleep. That is a child that SHOULD not be in a regular school. That is a bad kid. That is the kind that keeps the ones trying to learn, needing the extra help in resource from getting it.

Teachers do reward positive behavior. But, ignoring the bad behavior doesn't extinguish it. No matter how hard you want to believe so.

I grew up in the 70's/80's. We had a paddling was part of discipline. No one was abused. They were paddled. Parents were aware of it and they were punished when they got home too. You know, there wasn't back talking, disrespect, threats of STUDENT violence(in jr high) as I saw where the school has no rights

Many parents do not parent much. Many do. The ones who don't usually have the kids who are misbehaving in class. I am a parent. I am on the PTA board. I am very involved with my kids and at school. My kids are in grade school and they go to a very good school.

I have a friend who worked at an at risk elementary school and was going to have her masters repaid if she stayed there 3 years. The kids and parents were so bad, she chose not to. It was that bad. Parents totally uninvolved and kids completely out of control at the GRADE school level.

Parents make or break a school. It isn't about money being given to the schools, but, how involved the parents are and how they raise their kids. In my state, funds are distributed evenly across the state. Not to the individual areas.

Parents are what make children what they are.

Originally posted by llpoolej
I have worked in a Jr High school. I worked in the Resource dept. There was one boy, at age 13 that was 6ft tall and very violent. When he slept at his desk, he was left to sleep. I was instructed to leave him to sleep. That is a child that SHOULD not be in a regular school. That is a bad kid. That is the kind that keeps the ones trying to learn, needing the extra help in resource from getting it.

I don't believe there is such a thing as a "bad kid". I believe there are misguided children that need our help and are driven for attention. It leaves me disheartened to hear that you've worked in the resource department of a school, and your under the "Survival Of the Fittest" mentality. To hell with them slow kids, and those deviant youth, they take up too much damn time and effort.

Where do I enroll?

Originally posted by llpoolej
Teachers do reward positive behavior. But, ignoring the bad behavior doesn't extinguish it. No matter how hard you want to believe so.

I never said we need to ignore a bad behaviour. I said we should examine the manner in which we punish bad behaviour. If a child misbehaves, they need to be dealt with. But throwing them from the classroom, scolding them in front of their peers, etc., is not the answer. Sometimes a little bit of "resources" are required.

Originally posted by llpoolej
I grew up in the 70's/80's. We had a paddling was part of discipline. No one was abused. They were paddled. Parents were aware of it and they were punished when they got home too. You know, there wasn't back talking, disrespect, threats of STUDENT violence(in jr high) as I saw where the school has no rights

Are you saying we should bring back the paddle? You can make yourself believe that it was not a form of abuse all you wish, you are only kidding yourself. An educator paddling a child, is abuse, whichever way you want to look at it. What exactly is it going to accomplish?

Is it better to be respected or feared? Apparently you would prefer to be feared. Respect will get you much farther in life, and I would like to think our educators are striving for respect rather than fear.

Originally posted by llpoolej
The ones who don't usually have the kids who are misbehaving in class. I am a parent. I am on the PTA board. I am very involved with my kids and at school. My kids are in grade school and they go to a very good school.

And the possibility of your children misbehaving exists as well. As parents, we can attempt to instill all of the values we wish into a child. We can spend years trying to form the child into what we want them to be. But at the end of the day, they are going to be the person they want to be. They are going to determine what values they abide by, and the ethical standard they base decisions on. Parents, unfortunately, are going to take a back seat in the decision making process. It is a part of growing up.

All the boards, PTA's, etc., in the world are not going to change the harsh reality that a child is going to make mistakes.

Originally posted by llpoolej
I have a friend who worked at an at risk elementary school and was going to have her masters repaid if she stayed there 3 years. The kids and parents were so bad, she chose not to. It was that bad. Parents totally uninvolved and kids completely out of control at the GRADE school level.

Not every teacher is made for every setting. I deal with troubled youth, that is the setting you will find me in. Some of us have not turned our backs, some of us are making the effort and providing the "resources" to assist these children. Don't get me wrong, I do not fault someone who would prefer a more relaxed environment where children and parents are involved. Frankly, it is the ideal situation. But there are those of us who are looking to help those who truly need the help.

Originally posted by llpoolej
Parents make or break a school. It isn't about money being given to the schools, but, how involved the parents are and how they raise their kids. In my state, funds are distributed evenly across the state. Not to the individual areas.

Disagree completely. The children and the educators make the school. When I grew up, I behaved one way at home for my parents and I behaved another way in school. I respected authority, but at the same time I acted out in many ways. Some of which my parents would of never fathomed. I would suspect that many others are guilty of the same.

"What Momma Don't Know Won't Hurt Her"

If the educators are willing to go the extra mile, than it will make all the difference in the environment for the school setting. Parents have a very small role in this process. In the school setting I grew up in, parents were rarely seen and not involved in any aspect of the school curriculum. Did not impact whatsoever.

I don't mean to offend, but I think a few too many PTA meetings have led us to believe that we have more of an impact than we really do. The parents play a big role at home, but as I have said, ultimately the child is going to determine the person they become.

Originally posted by llpoolej
Parents are what make children what they are.

I respect your belief, but I could not disagree more. You can only show a child the door, he/she has to walk through it. You can not make your child become a doctor, lawyer, teacher, politician, etc., they have to become it on their own. A day will come when they will open their eyes and say that what has been planned for them is either for them, or not for them. I was always pegged to be a teacher, all through school and even into University I was down the path of education. After three years of my under grad, I said "Nope, This is not for me!". I dropped out of university and looked into other schooling to take a more hands on approach and assist troubled youth who are in conflict with the law.

I have a bright career ahead of me, and I hope to positively influence some lives.

You can attempt to instill these values, but the child will ultimately determine if they stick or not.

[edit on 17-1-2007 by chissler]

You know, I worked at an upper middle class school. I hate to say it, but, the majority of the kids in resource for BEHAVIOR issues(and yes, they put the difficult ones there) were the kids from the trailer parks. It was sad the bad behavior kids were so disruptive that the kids who were really struggling to learn, had a harder time of it

You could see the parental influence. You could tell whose parent in those classes cared and worked with the kids. You could also tell which parents(and this one in particular was a doctor's kid, that, they didn't want to deal with) that just gave them an insane amount of ritalin that had the kid so doped she could hardly see

I don't know where you get that no one cared. That wasn't the case at all. Kids KNOW they won't get kicked out of school and they can do as they please. They aren't stupid. They know how far they can push things

As far as the school I went to. I don't remember anyone being AFRAID. We did all respect the principal. Seriously. He was a very cool man. We liked him! That was Jr high, but, the high school I then went to had over a 90% to to college rate. I can't remember anyone not graduating. So, something in that school system worked.

Again, the parents were very involved. IF you are working with kids who are problematic, I am also betting many are from lower income families and single parent homes. I am sure the parents love them, but, I would also venture to say there isn't a lot of guidance and consequence to bad actions.

When I was 12 or 13, something crazy got up my butt and I told my Mother to shut up at the dinner table. I have no idea why, but, I knew it was wrong when it left my lips. Dad's ice tea was thrown into my face, he also threw me over his knee and spanked me

I was not afraid of my Dad. I was never hurt by my Dad. I sure as hell respected him and my Mother. I couldn't swear in front of my mother or tell her to shut up to this day. My parents never beat me. I was NEVER afraid of being hit. I knew how far to push it and when to stop as there were consequences

There are very few consequences in school. Many not at home either

I commend you for working with troubled kids. I really enjoy kids and I really enjoy that horrible jr high age. I love seeing the kids test their boundries and develop their selves.

Parents do shape children from the time they are born until they leave the home. It is obvious when you look at society.

In reading most of this thread but not all I see some ideas of blaming TV, video games and music. That’s all fine and good as yes those things can have a negative impact on a child but....... it's not the fault of those things at the base of their behavior.

Let me explain it like this.
When I was in school they still paddled you. Did I ever get a paddling? You bet I did. Did I deserve the punishment I got at the time yep I was breaking rules and disturbing the class. Is there a difference between punishment and abuse yes there is I have personally experienced both.
Spanking a kid for breaking rules is not a wrong thing to do. As long as those rules themselves are correctly laid out and not wrong.

But the truth is it is the parenting of today that is the cause of a majority of the problems. About 10 years ago when dating I seemed to find all the wrong women to date (but that's another story). All of the single mothers I was with still wanted to party which I found sort of odd. They/we would be out all night partying it up and then pick their kids up from the sitter. Kids that were old enough to see what was going on. After I left the picture they would bring some other guy home with them. These kids never had real stability and would get away with things they should not have because their parents didn't care or I should say care enough to give them the best. Honestly I was not super great either but I tried to show the attention and teach them what I could but most of the time I was around no longer than a month. But in looking back I was one of the few that showed these kids any attention other than their sitters.
Now at work I see another young woman doing the same thing as these others but with other guys. She has a five year old who apparently seen her mother and this other guy we work with come home drunk for a week straight. This after she had just gotten out of another relationship with some guy who was living with her. This is what I personally have seen our children being taught. A total and complete lack of responsibility, the don't worry about it some one else will fix it syndrome.

Did I ever do things to get into trouble? You bet I did and it was all stupid mistakes on my part. Things I have since then fixed myself from the time I was 16 until I was 20 I paid fines up to a total of about 3-5 thousand dollars. I paid for all of my mistakes with my own money I worked for because I was always told it I got into trouble for doing stupid things I was to get myself out of said trouble.

Now what has that done for me as an adult now? Well I have been married for six years to my best friend and mother of my child, I work like any one else (always have BTW), and I have not had trouble with the law for years (except the speeding ticket I got last year coming home from work after a mid night shift I was tiered and was not watching my speed). Would I change any thing that’s happened in my life? No every thing I have been through or did has made me who I am today and I'm very pleased with who I am.

To finish I say we bring back real parenting where you could spank your kid get the teachers who don't care out of the system and give them the right to paddle back.

Make the kids face responsibility for their actions and don't let them be planted in front of the TV or computer 24/7. Get the parents to face their responsibility and raise their kids and not live their life as if they don't have kids. The American parent lost the respect of their children in the 80's. Not all did but a great many did at that point their children could never get respect from their own children. Leaving us with the society we now see on a daily basis where some kid killed another or some kid rapes another.


Raist

Originally posted by snafu7700
why dont you ask the admin how many hoaxers they have each month?

Because I couldn't care less. I'm not one of them.

And -- possibly unlike you -- I am old enough to remember the Cold War...

possibly not. dont make assumptions....you'll find that you make an ass out of yourself by assuming too much.

To state a possibility is not to make an assumption, except possibly in the military. Doubtless you remember what Groucho Marx said about military intelligence.

i'd rather educate myself by reading a history book than psycho-babble... if you try that yourself, you might actually become educated as to the benifits of said military.

Possibly. On the other hand, possibly not.

The thing is, you see, I do read history. And not only do I read it; I write it, too. In fact, I had a book published just last month. Not self-published; published. And yes, it was a history book. For the same reasons I can't tell you which war I live inside, I can't tell you what the book was or where it was published. But I'm no more lying about this than I am about the war itself.

As an 18 year old, I'm not sure if I became angry or not when I saw this topic, but my curiosity got the better of me and I had to look.

I know the question at hand is the children of today, but part of me feels that society of today should be more justly questioned. I don't think it's fair to pin all of our hate of how society on a whole is becoming on the youth of today. (May I also assume that the majority of posts on this topic are directed at the American culture shock?)

I believe that people on a whole are violent, intolerable, ignorant and spiteful.

I also believe that they are many, many genuinely good people in the world; as well as intelligent children who can learn from their mistakes and make a successful life for themselves later on.

As the world becomes more Liberal (spiraling towards social chaos) I think that it's more acceptable to try to accept the "wrong-doings" of people... be that the children mouthing off to adults or whatever other examples posted here in this topic of youth being insubordinate.

I think that most adults generalize the youth as lazy and believe they lack the desire to learn. Thus, their education suffers because of lethargy.

I think our (America's) educational system on a whole lacks the desire to teach our children. If you walked into a 3rd grade classroom you could see the excitement and desire to learn, but if you walked into a High School you would see the majority of kids loathing to be there. It’s not that they DON’T want to learn, but they don't like the situation. (Most of the complaints I hear in school are: "I hate this school." They never say "I hate Math," They hate math class.) Why? The "system" is flawed.

The problem as I see it is not what they teach, but the way they teach it. There is no competition to actually teach. Students are sent to schools by district. I can see the logic behind this due to funding, (By the way, anyone care to guess where most of that money goes in my township? Educators pockets, transportation and useless technological tools.), but this doesn't create any desire to attract students to learn a subject. The way I've seen foreign countries conduct funding for schools is that students have an amount of money fixed to their actual person, thus, not by district taxes. This gives a school the incentive to attract good students as well as teachers to survive. It’s sort of a way to "weed out" the students with alternative educational values, as well as schools with bad proformance.

I think we can all point fingers at TV and Media and violent games, but in the end it's what you allow your kid (Or yourself even.) to do. You're the only role model your child has now. Don't let them rely on Hollywood or ABC [Laguna Beach and OC anyone?] to dictate them what good and bad is.

I have a 6 year old sister who my mother plunks down in front of the TV all day because she's tired of dealing with her. I'm not saying this is right or wrong (She's always been a bit on the hyper side but she's a child. She needs to get out and play), but I think it shows as to our different upbringings. My parents have the same goals and ideals, but they no longer have the time to allow her to run around outside like I did. Nor is it even safe. It's not her fault, and I don't think it's just in saying "Kids today..."

Also, a small personal note I'd like to add before I get too long-winded: I think as an 18 year old I'm well-rounded for my age. I believe that I am open minded yet I stand on my beliefs. It may also surprise you that I do not watch TV like the rest of my family nor play video games and I work three part-time jobs. I love learning and I have always loved the notion of school on a whole. (And no, I'm not part of some crazy religion nor cult. It's just a typical middle-America town) I do not think it's fair that kids like myself and my friends, who I believe do not fall into this group of deliquents you have drawn up for us, should be frowned down upon because our generation is seen, as a whole, as dumb, ignorant, spoiled, violent brats.


By the way, I just realized I said liberal before... I didn't mean the Left America, I was refering to the extreme Liberal philosophy of social construct that we were learning about in my Philosophy class... hence, Social Chaos.

An excellent post by DarkFlame; I'm not sure what else I could add, but I'll try.

I think a lot of problems stem from parental non-involvement, and a general culture of not accepting responsibility for anything. Groups have little fits over content in tv or games or movies, and they're rated as a result . . . then (some) parents ignore said ratings, and blame someone else for CREATING said product, and then to take it a step further try to prevent anyone regardless of age from having/viewing said product.

Little Johnny shoots up a school, everyone blames Marilyn Manson, but no one stops to think that maybe Little Johnny had serious psychosocial issues to begin with, and the parents were ignoring the signs?

I think more than discipline (by which I do not mean corporal punishment mind you), there should be involvement in the child's life by parents and educators, and trust there. Your kid isn't going to come to talk to you about something they're struggling with if they're terrified of the reaction they're going to get, or know they won't get any at all.

I don't really think there's anything different about kids today. The difference is the world we live in. Up until very recently, every memer of a family had to work hard, day in and day out, just for survival. Nowadays that isn't the case; we and our children have far more free time than we ever had before, far less uncertainty about where our next meal is coming from, etc. Parents need to be involved in how their children fill their free time, and what shapes them.

If a kid has a problem, he or she may not know how to express it other than acting out. Rather than jumping on them with both feet at the first sign of trouble, one might give thought to understanding what's going on with them.

So often I hear the ideas bandied about of corporal punishment or having the military 'straighten them out'. But if you don't understand the underlying problem, both of those will do *far* more harm than good.