Martial Arts in Survival Situation

I'm a physical coward, so I practise t'ai chi.

Just thought I'd get that out up front.

First, a small digression. The OP was talking about survival. Now, I dare say they meant survival in a fight, but there are techniques in both yoga and t'ai chi that allow the user to generate heat, and that could be useful in a survival situation. I used to live in an extremely cold flat with cracks in the window frames, and the winter winds used to whistle straight through. I found a pranayama technique in B K S Iyengar's Light on Yoga that allowed me to generate heat quite quickly and warm up my cold (and at that time, bachelor) bed. Adepts are said to be tested by having to use their body heat to dry out a heavy blanket thoroughly soaked in iced water several times in one night.

It is also said that there are t'ai chi masters who act as a source of heat for their students on cold days.

This guy is pretty interesting, and I've studied with him personally. He has cross-trained in a LOT of different martial arts, and is convinced that the internal styles (t'ai chi, ba gua, and hsing I) have the edge over the external ones... given many years' diligent practice. It takes longer to get good at them, but once you are, apparently you're way ahead of the game.

This, from my point of view, is all theoretical. I'm in this for my health, and have always managed to avoid a fight ever since I was a kid. (I did judo then, and found it was good for dealing with bullies as long as they weren't massively stronger and bigger than me).

One of the things I like about the Taoist attitude to martial arts is that training that could cause damage is strongly discouraged. Why hurt yourself? Softness, not hardness, can be very important, as the story I shall relate demonstrates.

The guy I linked to can definitely do stuff that most people would think of as physically impossible. I've seen these things for myself. And one of his pupils, with whom I've studied a little ba gua, tells a great story.

He was living with Bruce as a favoured pupil and one day a guy turns up determined to challenge Bruce. Back in the day, apparently, Bruce did indeed do some serious fighting, very serious indeed... but has left it far behind him. The guy was so persistent that Bruce agreed to spar. He hoped that by simply being impossible to hit, he would prove his point, but it just made his opponent madder.

This is the part people will find impossible to believe, but... I've met the guy and seen/experienced what he can do. I have no problem with this.

Bruce, seeing the guy getting madder and madder, eventually decided to bring the sparring to an end. He allowed the guy to hit him in the stomach. The way Paul told the story, he said. "Bruce is so soft... the punch went in, under the ribcage and slightly to Bruce's left, and Bruce just let the hand sink in wrist deep (if you look at the website you can see he's not a slim boy), and then he twisted his internal organs, broke the guy's wrist, and expelled the arm with such force it dislocated the guy's shoulder.

End of contest.

You may not believe that tale. Fine. I have no problem with that, I probably wouldn't either had I not met the guy and seen what he can do.

Bruce is the only Westerner to have received the training he has: he is a lineage master in the Taoist martial arts. He started out in karate as a young man, and then spent most of his life in the Orient. He even studied aikido with Morihei Ueshiba, and it was his opinion (later in life) that aikido was derived from ba gua, but without the depth of ba gua's energy practices.

Apparently, in 1923, there was a nationwide martial arts contest in China. It was called off because of the number of severe maimings (they weren't messing about) but the ba gua guys won "on points", in other words, their art was judged to be the most effective. It is an extremely interesting art, and from physical and health reasons alone, worth checking out. I have done a little training in it, and I can say that the energy flows it develops are extremely powerful, although I cannot personally vouch for its martial effectiveness.

There's been a lot of stuff about kicking in this thread, and I find what Bruce has to say about kicks very logical (as I did the post about how legs are more massive and therefore harder to move, nice one). For Bruce, a kick leaves one exposed and unable to move in the time it's being executed. The training practices of ba gua emphasise two points that are germane here: first, the knees are generally kept together (a style of stepping is developed that allows this but permits extreme flexibility of movement); and secondly, the maxim is observed that a kick is a step and a step is a kick. With the knees together, groin kicks are constantly blocked, and integrating kicks with stepping makes a lot more sense than that flashy roundhouse stuff that looks great in the movies but leaves one very vulnerable to counterattack.

Anyway, enough of my secondhand theorising, time to leave this thread to the big boys who actually like a scrap. But... I'd really recommend Bruce's book The Power of Internal Martial Arts.

Does anybody have any information on the Keysi Fighting Method (prominently featured in the movie Batman Begins) I have seen only one website I believe is the official studio but it is located in England.

KLM website

Are there any American institutions, any practionioners in ATS ??

When choosing a martial art, you should consider your personality as a guide. If you're laid back, I'd choose one of the more defensive forms like Aikido or Judo. If you're more aggressive the striking forms like Tae Kwan do or Jeet Kun do might be more your cup of tea. With any martial art form, you have to practice and dedicate yourself to it for it to be useful. The reason someone makes their form look so natural is they trained so much that their bodies have physical memory of their disciplines movements. HTH

Maybe the reason there are no Aikido 'badasses' prancing around the ring and fighting for the amusement of the crowd is because Aikidoka don't 'fight'. [...] I have a hard time imagining any true student of Aikido getting in a ring for money or fame. It would be a corruption of the fundamental principles of the art, I should think. Even if someone did abandon their principles, and engaged in that sort of activity using what they had learned, I suspect that they would lose any real power they might have had.

I've studied about Aikido, watched some video and talked to some practioners of the system. I understand where they are coming from, and I am sure some find it useful. I like the randori training. However, for somebody learning martial arts for survival, it would not be on my top 10 list. That's doesn't mean it's bad or not useful at all, just that there are better choices for survival/street purposes.

I have some issues with Aikido... From what I've seen Aikido is not aggressive enough, it's 100% defensive and too passive. Aggression and being offensive are necessary to succeed in many fights (even in self-defense)--for both practical and mental purposes.

BJJ and MT are better in this area by incorporating offensive techniques and encouraging being offensive and aggressive. The people doing jiujistu & muay thai therefore tend to be more aggressive/offensive which means the sparring is more realistic.

It's interesting though how Aikido people often point out that they don't fight they just use a person's force against them, they don't get thrown, they throw themselves down This seems to set up a false sense of confidence. This may work in theory or against a very unskilled attacker, but not against somebody with fight experience and certainly not a BJJ or MT guy. I see this as a bit of a crutch when a person's skills are not as good as the other person's--like "Sure the other guy's a black belt, but I'm going to use his elite skills against him so it's like he is fighting himself". A bit childish really, with no empirical evidence that system works.

Lastly I think the spiritual teachings/chi/ki ideas are more religious faith in nature and not directly related to self-defense and survival training. At best they are unnecessary and distracting--at worst they are a waste of time engendering false ideas and false confidence.

There is only one purpose in combat, and that is to kill your enemy.

I disagree with that. Let me get this straight...if some drunk guy grabs ahold of you and looks like he might punch, you should kill him on the spot with your lethal techniques?

There are many types of H2H combat situations where lethal force should not be utilized (most). That's why it is useful to have skills in neutralizing and incapacitating an attacker without lethal force.

Police departments have used jiu jitsu training exactly for this reason: it does not teach lethal techniques, and therefore all the techniques can be practiced at 100% full contact and utilized in field situations where lethal force is not needed. If you need to get lethal, that's what Krav Maga is for--military-style combat.

One correction KravMaga has non leathal techniques, basically counter-attack continues as long as the opponent presents a threat. Main techniques are simple kicks and punches, they can be leathal, but it's unnececary to learn how kill someone with a single move, If you can knock him down... and then if a need arises likvidate him.

Now I don't know a whole lot about other martial arts but I can vouche for the extreme practicality of Hapkido.

As a 6th kup (just ranked up a couple weeks ago), I feel I can go over what I really like about Hapkido and why its a valuable art to learn.

A sister art to Aikido, Hapkido is similar yet much more aggresive and incorporates aspects of both hard and soft arts while having the main focus of self defense. Focusing on self-defense rather than competition means it's all about surviving an encounter no matter the situation and without rules.

There's also a good range of techniques: kicks, strikes, locks, grappling, throws/rolls, weapons. Hapkido is all about practicality and non-resistance (using an opponents power against them) which is why I love it. It works for people of all sizes and is adaptable for all situations.

I wish I could relate all the little analogies our master uses when talking about Hapkido, things like where some arts like karate or tae kwon do teach you to win a fight in an open football field, Hapkido teaches you to win a fight in a closet.

I could go on and on about how great I think my art is, but honestly I think the most important thing when deciding on an art is to find one that works for you. Do you prefer punches and kicks or throwing and grappling or maybe some combination? Consider your strengths and weaknesses and what you intend to get out of an art.

Theres an old saying about what art is the best which goes something like how since all arts teach discipline and responsable use, you should never have to fight a student of a martial art, therefore it doesn't matter what art you choose.

Now this is obviously not absolute but I think theres truth in it and similarly I don't think you can go wrong with anything you choose.

Originally posted by Shark

I wish I could relate all the little analogies our master uses when talking about Hapkido, things like where some arts like karate or tae kwon do teach you to win a fight in an open football field, Hapkido teaches you to win a fight in a closet.

And Krav Maga teaches you to fight in a bar, street, atm and other practical places

I practice the art of Winchester Defender, guaranteed to beat any belt of any martial art.

Peace

I agree best fighting form is a pistol.
I have seen a fight outside a bar with an american indian and a mexican. the mexican ran to his truck while being chased, grabbed a crowbar, swung at the indian very hard twice, hit him in the head and the indian stood there and laughed at him. the indian grabbed the mexican by the shirt through him on the ground and started whailing on the mexican with repeated fists pounding on him like a wild gorilla. the cops then showed up. and took the indian down. it took 20 minutes and 10 cops to finally subdue this guy. the ambulance took the mexican away. dont know if he died or not.
no matter what martial arts you practice, chances are you might run into one of these guys. If a beating with a crowbar wont stop them. then a punch or kick definetly wont. This is reality

Get a concealed weapons permit go through the class. carry your pistol. chances are you will win.

I teach Wado-Ryu, Ju-Jitsu and Kobu-Jutsu.
The disciplines are varied from each style. What you need to understand is that no matter how good you think you are, there are always better out there.

Martial Arts is a good way of learning self defense, but it is not the be all and end all. It does not make you invincible.

Most people that do not practice, tend to think that what they see in films is the true thing. Yes, but it is choreographed, and practiced to look good.

I myself have had many an experience in the street. I have come off good more times than bad, but that dose not mean nothing.

I train with weapons, and how to combat them. If someone pulled a knife on me, my first defense would be to run away, unless my back was against the wall, in which case i would use what ever techniques i know to defend my self.

Martial Arts are brilliant, but they can also be one hell of a burden if anyone finds out you practice.

no matter what martial arts you practice, chances are you might run into one of these guys. If a beating with a crowbar wont stop them. then a punch or kick definetly wont. This is reality

It all depends where you hit the guy. It seems like the guy with the crowbar was trying to just knock him senseless. He should have been going for the crippling blows to the knees. I don't care how big you are, if you get a crowbar in the knee hard enough, the bone WILL shatter... and then after that it's "the bigger they are the hard they fall" and you can then safely get away while buddy is writhing in agony on the ground. Frankly the best self defense weapon aside from a gun, is a sawed off hockey stick. Oak sticks are the best. Places to aim for: Side of the head(temple area), Solar Plexus(the spot just below where the ribcage end, his that area square on and you'll wind the guy immediately), Knees, Groin, etc.

Originally posted by sardion2000
Frankly the best self defense weapon aside from a gun, is a sawed off hockey stick. Oak sticks are the best.

I keep a hickory axe handle next to my bed.



Sri Oracle

Originally posted by searching_for_truth
There is a very lethal martial arts which you can find in the Philippines. (origin)

This is called:YAW YAN (Dance of Death)

For more information, here is the official website:www.yawyan.com...

I studied this for six years, I started 1991. This is where I saw how a Yaw Yan fighter massacred a Thai boxer in a bout for a full contact fight. (bloody!)

Yaw Yan is not just a plain martial arts. It is somethign like a religion or a brotherhood. There isd a sealing ritual where you will be sealed on the chest by a flaming iron as part of its tradition.

This is basically an offensive martial arts. This includes intense street fighting techniques. You will also learn how to use swords, nunchaku & Arnis.

It is very well known for its deadly kicks.
Due to its lethal techniques, Tae kwon do was officially replaced by Yaw Yan as the offical martial atrs of the National Police

just had a look on thiir site.seems more like a kickboxing art .
hows their street fighting and weapon fighting like.
any history of art available?

There is a very lethal martial arts which you can find in the Philippines. (origin)

This is called:YAW YAN (Dance of Death)

For more information, here is the official website:www.yawyan.com...

I studied this for six years, I started 1991. This is where I saw how a Yaw Yan fighter massacred a Thai boxer in a bout for a full contact fight. (bloody!)

Yaw Yan is not just a plain martial arts. It is somethign like a religion or a brotherhood. There isd a sealing ritual where you will be sealed on the chest by a flaming iron as part of its tradition.

This is basically an offensive martial arts. This includes intense street fighting techniques. You will also learn how to use swords, nunchaku & Arnis.

It is very well known for its deadly kicks.
Due to its lethal techniques, Tae kwon do was officially replaced by Yaw Yan as the offical martial atrs of the National Police

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

oops wrongly posted

just had a look on thiir site.seems more like a kickboxing art .
hows their street fighting and weapon fighting like.
any history of art available?

Originally posted by DeusEx
Just remember the Indiana Jones lesson, everybody...

Remember when Indy's in Cairo, and that huge Arab guy comes out of the crowd, swinging those two swords?

Yeah.

DE

I always loved that part.

La chose la plus facile que je peux suggérer est un poinçon dans la gorge.

Originally posted by Bikereddie
I train with weapons, and how to combat them. If someone pulled a knife on me, my first defense would be to run away, unless my back was against the wall, in which case i would use what ever techniques i know to defend my self.

agree, running away is usually the best martial arts technigue accompanied with fast legs. You should go to hand combat only if you have no other options, including running as fast as you can. It may sound covardly, but it keeps you alive.

Carrying weapons is not an option in my country, so your best bet is to avoid situations. In my mind weapons are allso guite bad option, because it will allways end in other side in IC at hospital or graveyard. When people carry weapons they are more probable to use them. Offcourse avoiding fire-arms does not work anymore in countries like america, where every hotshot-triggerhappy-idiot can get his/her hands on large caliber semi-automatic handguns legally. this will end in that every little click makes whole crowd draw guns. Best protection in these situations is to wear concealed bodyarmor all time and duck when you hear that click. helmet recommended.

Back to main issue: Hand-to-hand combat means close quarters, which means that your opponent probably gets at least couple hard hits on you before you get him down. no matter how good you are. Because unless you are *sshole and actively search for fight, first hits will be supprise attacks (if you are *sshole and actively search fight, it's right for you getting beaten up. you get what you order). After that you can use your nice moves to take attacker down, if attacker has not knocked you down before it.

You just can't stop trained unexpected attack from out-off-visual area in hand combat range, because you notice the attack when it hits you. those damn kung-fu inctict jobs don't work unless you notice possible attacker before and expect something might be coming. Which you can not do all day, because you would get nervous break down. So best martial arts tactigue is to look around yourself when moving and keep nice distance to anyone you don't trust. This way you hear, if attacker tries to close in.

Especially important awayding hits is in sit X where you have no hospitals to go to get yourself patched up after fight. If you broke your hand in handcombat now, it is not situation just visit to hospital and couple weeks off medical leave. Instead if you broke bone in sit-x it is most probably death sentence.

[edit on 5/4/08 by hopea]

My main issue with Oriental martial arts is that there is almost no emphasis on groundfighting. You may be able to kick like Chuck, but if you're on your back in half guard, what then? My Krav Maga classes are starting to emphasize Bad Things happening, like ending up on the ground with someone on top of you. You need to get out of that sort of stuff, which is why some BJJ and MMA stuff is good. However, if you specialize in ground fighting, what's gonna happen is while you're got the first guy on the ground and you're pounding away, his buddy is going to come by and bootf**k you in the head. Game over.

I like Krav Maga, I really do. It takes what it wants and leaves the rest. That said, I'd like to remind everyone that martial arts are something to be used in less-lethal situations (subduing drunks or valuable persons) or in absolute desperation. Remember Indy?

DE

I have no formal training, but since i was a kid, i always rolled with martial artists, of many disciplines. I do have a lot of exposure to TaeKwonDo and Ninjitsu, as well as a lot of other agility skills that contribute to self defense.

One thing I use is psychological intimidation in the form of a calm demeanor, i appear as if i'm relaxed, indifferent to my opponent's anger or motivation, and patiently await my opponent's first move.

A Sun Tzu put it, i calmly await my opponent to arrive on the battlefield and engage an enemy that rushes into battle. Most times i can deal with people who are just plain pissed off by awaiting their attack and using a subtle counter. I'll stay arms down, dodge a few blows, remain outwardly calm, let your opponent exhaust the initial rage, and tire out after a few attempts at contact. It's amazing how many people just expect someone to stand still and get hit.

Know your enemy. If you're up against an enemy that you KNOW can absorb a hit from, suck it up and remain completely indifferent to the attack. Let your opponent think he delivered a blow that would deal damage, and simply don't react in any outward way, regardless of the pain, just use your mind to numb the pain and act like you didn't even notice.

These kinds of things i find will turn anger into fear with people who don't know you're using psychological attacks and defenses. Just watch out, because for 10 times anger to fear makes an opponent quit, there's that one nutcase who will whip out his gat and commence to squeezing till it goes click.

I haven't had to use much in the way of any physical contact in many years because i learned to present myself in a way that makes me an unknown in battle, i remain calm, but i subtly let on to the raging inferno aside with very few softly spoken words as firm as granite.

I've worked extensively with animals in the past, stuff like monkeys, lions, tigers, gators and crocs, vipers and cobras (forest cobras are quick!) and many other animals that can be quick and dangerous, and i've found that learning how animals react and how to use instinctive reactions in untrianed opponents is the same as getting the cobra to strike at your hand you're using to bait it as you reach around and grab with your other hand. I've also watched how each animal wields it's natural defense, how a tiger uses powerful low sweeping blows , how a bear will raise up,m charge forward with descending body weight to bring down an opponent, or reptiles such as large monitors and other lizards (and gators/crocs) use tails as whips, some armed with razor sharp scales on the tail end.


I'm of the belief that a strong mind and solid tactics makes whatever technique you choose effective, Also, as stated before, rules only limit you, so many times i see someone get whooped because they followed the rules while the opponent simply acted in disregard of any rules.

reply to post by SneakySquirrel


Think that about the best combination!!...Jujitsu combined with discipline that teaches the use of kicking and punching techniques...but there must be practical exprience...what it feels like to fight...even just in a Dojo..to give you that edge in a survival situation!!