if the whole conspiracy were really true......

Originally posted by bob2000
"they are controlling us and conditioning us through the media"........

Well, that would be right if it were true that they knew exactly how to control us through the media and that they were certain that it would work.

But when you wake up from fantasy land, you realize controlling the world, through the media alone without forcing guns in people's faces is incredibly difficult to do.

Ah! We have a real psychology major here!


The Nazis (as one prominent example; otherwise the USSR, etc.) gained control of their presses and it was no time until the significant portion of citizens were in lock-step with the party's line and gladly waving goodbye to all of the Jews being hauled out by the train full.

But surely that is fantasy land, and conditioning, modeling, shaping the way people think surely cannot be done with major media that most all of us are exposed to every single day.


It isn't that simple but it can and has and IS BEING done. The techniques used are not even esoteric -- you could run through some psychology courses and pick up on EXACTLY how they do this stuff.

It's in the connotations of words. It's in what they report to you, and what you never hear about. It's in the light they shine on each issue; it's in the boundaries of thought they set up for you by providing you with the left and right, but go beyond those boundaries of thought and you're "extreme".

It's in the lies they use when they explain to you how things work, or who is behind these attacks, or who is out to get you, and who is there to protect you.

It's a sad truth but only a few decades of gradual conditioning via the above will render a society without much independent thought. Nazi Germany is not the only example. Communist USSR, Cold War USA, Cuba, any major political party in the world, etc., etc., and saying this is fantasy land is just showing how much YOU live in a fantasy land.


I'm becoming convinced, bob, that you will post things regardless of their factual merit, simply by how true you FEEL them to be. Do you get that? It's what Colbert calls truthiness. It doesn't matter what the truth is; you're only interested in the truth you FEEL.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by bob2000
"they are controlling us and conditioning us through the media"........

Well, that would be right if it were true that they knew exactly how to control us through the media and that they were certain that it would work.

But when you wake up from fantasy land, you realize controlling the world, through the media alone without forcing guns in people's faces is incredibly difficult to do.

Ah! We have a real psychology major here!

I think you are dismissing the idea with examples that the Poster did not provide... it is very easy to provide a self fulling reasoning, if you provide your own Strawman.

The American media is weak and no longer investigative. Seymour Hirsch and Steve Coll (maybe Lou Dobbs) appear to be the only ones left. Greg Palast of the BBC, Guardian and Observer has continually written detailed pieces about the voting fraud in Florida and the Bush link... yet, it is not covered by the mainstream media in the USA.

Our media walks arm in arm with the Administration... no matter what Administration it is, otherwise they do not gain access to the Presidential Press Corp... plain and simple.

It is a fact that Greg Palast cannot get published in the mainstream media... only ABC will take a timid flyer on Greg, maybe twice a year.


Edit to trim quote:Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 27-12-2006 by mrwupy]

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by bob2000
"they are controlling us and conditioning us through the media"........

Well, that would be right if it were true that they knew exactly how to control us through the media and that they were certain that it would work.

But when you wake up from fantasy land, you realize controlling the world, through the media alone without forcing guns in people's faces is incredibly difficult to do.

Ah! We have a real psychology major here!


The Nazis (as one prominent example; otherwise the USSR, etc.) gained control of their presses and it was no time until the significant portion of citizens were in lock-step with the party's line and gladly waving goodbye to all of the Jews being hauled out by the train full.

But surely that is fantasy land, and conditioning, modeling, shaping the way people think surely cannot be done with major media that most all of us are exposed to every single day.

What the nazis did in Germany during WWII is a very weak example of controlling its populaton through media. The Nazis did not control the germans, they biased their political beleifs. And they only succeed on some of the germans, not all. Biasing political beleif will only work on those who are predisposed, propaganda aint magic. biasing political beleifs and actually "controlling" your people are not the same thing! Im not talking about biasing the populations political views so that they suport some political campeign, I know you CTers get aroused by just seeing analagies of the nazis and the U.S. government, but thats not what Im talking about, thats not what the common conspiracy theme is suggesting when it talks of "control" and that is not what ANOK is talking about.

Control is what you see when you look at a cult group, but imagine that kind of following on a much larger scale where the people are the followers, and the cult leader is the government. "cult group control" is the kind of control I am talking about and what the common conspiracy theme suggests is happening in the US, and in reality, theres no way any government can get that kind of controll through media bias alone. Its just not practically possible. Bias of Political beleifs is really as far as you can get, and that only works on those who are predisposed.

^What the nazis did in WWII is not this, sorry man. And BTW, there were characteristics associated with propaganda all over the german media that were screaming "PROPAGANDA! PROPAGANDA GOD DAMNIT!!!" during WWII that are not present in the media in the United States today. However, these characteristics do happen to be present in 911research.com and other "truth movement" sites.


[edit on 29-12-2006 by bob2000]

Originally posted by bob2000
The Nazis did not control the germans, they biased their political beleifs. And they only succeed on some of the germans, not all

Then we totally agree, but are using different words.

And the Nazis did succeed in brainwashing enough people to allow them to do whatever they wanted domestically; they had to be overthrown by external forces.

To me, that is "control" over the population. To you, it is "biasing their beleifs" [sic], but we both understand and acknowledge what they succeeded with domestically, very simply, by controlling their presses.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by bob2000
The Nazis did not control the germans, they biased their political beleifs. And they only succeed on some of the germans, not all

Then we totally agree, but are using different words.

And the Nazis did succeed in brainwashing enough people to allow them to do whatever they wanted domestically; they had to be overthrown by external forces.

To me, that is "control" over the population. To you, it is "biasing their beleifs" [sic], but we both understand and acknowledge what they succeeded with domestically, very simply, by controlling their presses.

yeah, biasing your beleifs, controlling you. not the same thing.

Im sure reading all that conspiracy sh1t convinced you the US govt is evil right? but does it mean 911research.com and other sites are controlling you? Do you find yourself mysteriously commited to doing what ever those websites tell you to do? do you feel commited to dress a certain way? eat a certain way? Do you feel you need to start making friends with different people? DO you look at people differently now on the street? Do you feel you need to change the music you listen to as a result of what you learned from these sites? the answer is no.

Your personality has not changed as a result or reading these conspiracy sites, what you like has not changed (food music etc.) your expectations of yourself and people have not changed, your probably not commited to following or doing or killing anyone those websites say you should. The only thing that has changed is your view as the US government being evil.

so really, your opinions are the only things that have changed. but personality, being controlled, umm, no.

Its very clear Im talking about something different, dont act like you cant see it. changing opinions are not the same as controlling someone the same way a cult does to its followers, becuase its the "cult style" control Im talking about here, not petty opinion manipulation.

[edit on 29-12-2006 by bob2000]

^Dude I recommend this book...'The Violent Decade' by Frank Gervasi.

Available here

He was an American foreign corespondent in Europe and the book covers 1935-1945. It's not a conspiricy book, more an auto-biography, but it's gives a clear picture of how the press was used, by both Mussolini and Hitler in the build up to WWII. It is quit clear that the press was the main tool used to influence public thought and opinion. They used every trick in the book. Hitler called his party the National Socialist Party (an oxymoron) so as to trick the workers on the left that he was Socialist, while all the time, as we of course know, he fascist just like Mussolini.

Do you think things have changed? Well yes they have imo, they have more control now than they did then...

Originally posted by bob2000
Do you find yourself mysteriously commited to doing what ever those websites tell you to do? do you feel commited to dress a certain way? eat a certain way? Do you feel you need to start making friends with different people? DO you look at people differently now on the street? Do you feel you need to change the music you listen to as a result of what you learned from these sites? the answer is no.

So where does 911research.com attempt to do any of those things? And then, what does this have to do with ANYTHING in our discussion?

Your personality has not changed as a result or reading these conspiracy sites, what you like has not changed (food music etc.) your expectations of yourself and people have not changed, your probably not commited to following or doing or killing anyone those websites say you should. The only thing that has changed is your view as the US government being evil.

so really, your opinions are the only things that have changed. but personality, being controlled, umm, no.

So wait; this is your logic?:

911research.com doesn't brainwash me, so therefore neither does the corporate mass media!

Can you explain what kind of logic that is, exactly?

Its very clear Im talking about something different, dont act like you cant see it

What's clear to me is that you've either had to much eggnog this holiday season, or you just don't have a good grasp on how arguments usually logically follow.

Bob you really need a one way ticket to Caracas Venezuela and see if you can exit the country without zillions of zombies telling you Chavez is GOD....

Even an event like the Superbowl makes a perfect example of brainwashing, the media plays for 6 months to build up a game that will be watched by millions, nor just think what they can do with your sense of security? ANYTHING

If 911 was a conspiracy, the same people involved would be making a lot of money of the retaliation, of course which they'd of lied to convince the public to follow. You wouldnt committ 911 unless u had something planned to do AFTER WARDS.

HOLYCR@P balls batman... THATS WHATS HAPPENING!

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
If 911 was a conspiracy, the same people involved would be making a lot of money of the retaliation, of course which they'd of lied to convince the public to follow. You wouldnt committ 911 unless u had something planned to do AFTER WARDS.

Oh but they had plenty planned for after 9-11...
They started a war, in Iraq, 9-11 was the excuse. We are now in a war economy, arms makers are making huge profits. If you notice the US economy is very dependant on arms sales, has been since WWII.

Why do you think the gov jumps at every chance for war and even creates events to allow them to go to war, like Pearl Harbor and yes 9-11?

And then there's Halliburton...

WASHINGTON, July 25 (HalliburtonWatch.org) -- Halliburton announced on Friday that its KBR division, responsible for carrying out Pentagon contracts, experienced a 284 percent increase in operating profits during the second quarter of this year (2005).

Source

Need I say More?

I'm sure there's lots of other benefits to the ruling elites that someone else will fill you in on.

Originally posted by ANOK
^Dude I recommend this book...'The Violent Decade' by Frank Gervasi.

Available here

He was an American foreign corespondent in Europe and the book covers 1935-1945. It's not a conspiricy book, more an auto-biography, but it's gives a clear picture of how the press was used, by both Mussolini and Hitler in the build up to WWII. It is quit clear that the press was the main tool used to influence public thought and opinion. They used every trick in the book. Hitler called his party the National Socialist Party (an oxymoron) so as to trick the workers on the left that he was Socialist, while all the time, as we of course know, he fascist just like Mussolini.

Do you think things have changed? Well yes they have imo, they have more control now than they did then...

again, your confusing propaganda=something that controls people the very nature of someones behavio; it is actually something that is supposed to persuade people to beleive something, much like a defense attorney would convince a jury that his man is innocent. Key word, persuasion, also see the word "opinion" or "views".

I know the nazis used propaganda and used media outlets to spread it. But that is not what Im talking about, that is not what my original post talked about. Im talking about using media to go beyond manipulating people's opinions to the point of CONTROLLING them, this includes changing their very culture, how they act and behave. This is different than just persuading someone to beleive something, which is the only thing propaganda does. My definition of "control" is very clear, I have given enough examples to see the distinction between a government "controlling people" and the government "persuading its people with propaganda".

What my original post said is that accoriding to the common theme, the big evil minds behind all the conspiracies have divine genius and the power to control societies and the people in that society nad have beein doing it for centuries as part of their NWO. Such control that they allagedly have gained over their people is impossible. Its not possible to use media alone alone to change a societies culture, how they act and behave all in a planned and directed way. Persuading a popultion to beleive something is a different story, the evil minds ruling the world behind the scenes are supposedly going beyond controlling opinion,s but to controlling the culture and nature of the societies themselves.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by bob2000
Do you find yourself mysteriously commited to doing what ever those websites tell you to do? do you feel commited to dress a certain way? eat a certain way? Do you feel you need to start making friends with different people? DO you look at people differently now on the street? Do you feel you need to change the music you listen to as a result of what you learned from these sites? the answer is no.

So where does 911research.com attempt to do any of those things? And then, what does this have to do with ANYTHING in our discussion?

It has alot to do with your discussion. Your argument is that what the nazis did was "control". I say its more like "persuasion" than control. What they did is exactly what 911research and others are doing. They are trying to persuade you to beleive something. Dont tell me 911research isnt considered propaganda. by definition, it is propaganda. ITs the same stuff the nazis use. The only difference is that the nazis persuaded people that jews are evil, and that hitler is good. 911research etc. wants to persuade you that the US is evil, and that the "truth movement" is good.

So if propaganda=control like you say. then 911research must be exerting control on you right, Im mean according to your own equating propaganda with control here. Since the only thing that has changed is your opinion of the government, this basically proves thats pretty much all propaganda can do.

What it cannot do is change the culture of a society in a planned way. It cannot change the nature of people or how they act in a planned way.

This relates to my original post which shows that the evil society cannot do that, despite what the CTers claim they are/can/have been doing.


[edit on 1-1-2007 by bob2000]

Originally posted by bob2000
I know the nazis used propaganda and used media outlets to spread it. But that is not what Im talking about, that is not what my original post talked about. Im talking about using media to go beyond manipulating people's opinions to the point of CONTROLLING them, this includes changing their very culture, how they act and behave.

But they DID do that, who do you think worked the gas chambers in the concentration camps? How were they convinced that what they were doing was in their minds right? Did they behave like that before? So what turned them then?

Do you think the Germans were always like that before Hitlers party took control? It was Hitler through the media that turned a nation against the Jews. Same way our government is trying to do with Muslims.

It is CONTROL, the media tells you what to think, how to act, what to wear, how to spend your money, who to vote for. You are just not looking at it from the right angle. You are looking for physical control, but on the surface it isn't like that. It's psychological control, which is in the long run far more powerful and effective than physical control. That was the lesson the elite learned from past events such as the 1930's fascists and their over use of physical control on it's population.

You're not going to find the overt physical control you're looking for, it doesn't work that way anymore.

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by bob2000
I know the nazis used propaganda and used media outlets to spread it. But that is not what Im talking about, that is not what my original post talked about. Im talking about using media to go beyond manipulating people's opinions to the point of CONTROLLING them, this includes changing their very culture, how they act and behave.

But they DID do that, who do you think worked the gas chambers in the concentration camps? How were they convinced that what they were doing was in their minds right? Did they behave like that before? So what turned them then?

Yeah, this is a really bad example. Your trying to say they killed innocent jews (when its not normal for one to feel okay about killing innocent people) becuase of the influence of propaganda and not due to another cause.

a Social Psychologist named Stanley Milgram did a study on obediance to authority. Basically his subjects would go into a room and a scientist wearing a white coat and holding clip board would ask them questions, everytime they got a question wrong, they were instructed to increase the voltage on a dial and the victim would be shocked. These "victims" were actually actors pretending to be shocked. of course the subjects thought it was a weird experiment, many of the subjects displayed extreme stress and questioned the experiment's legality, but despite their desire to quit, they still followed through even when the voltage was at a lethal level

65% of the subjects actually followed the orders of the "scientist" and shocked the "victim" even at the lethal volatage. This experiment has been independantly reproduced with the same results.

Just think, if the the power of authority of a white coat and clip board can induce people to kill someone else, then just think of how powerful the authority of having military personel giving you instructions to kill someone will have.

IT is clear that the nazis who did shove the jews in the ovens didnt do so becuase they were being controlled by media propaganda, but did so due to the power of authoritive influence. I have no doubt that most of the nazis who held the responsiblity of cooking the jews felt horrible about what htey were doing and knew it was wrong. But their peer and authoritive infleunce was too strong. THis had nothing to do with media propaganda. This proves this is a bad example for someone to use that is trying to show that media propaganda can do more than change opinions, but actualy control someone.

My point stands: Media propaganda cannot do anything but change opinions and views. IT cannot control people and make them do things they normally wouldnt do, or change their nature or behavior. and Authoritive influence is not the same thing as propaganda! having an authorative figure shouting orders at you is totally different than a TV set selling you propaganda ideas.

BTW, check out the experiment:
Milgram, Stanley (1963). "Behavioral Study of Obedience". Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology 67: 371–378.


[edit on 6-1-2007 by bob2000]

So, there is some all-encompassing conspiracy ?
Proof ?
Opinions are not proof.
Web-sites are not proof. Just more opinions, more eloquently provided.
Personal subscriptions to knowing the Truth ? Not proof.
I appreciate most of what you people are doing, but....where is the PROOF ??
To speculate on motives is exactly that. Speculation.
For myself, I want evidence that something, someone is in control.
Prove that, please.
Again, speculation, belief and postulation are not proof, show me proof.

Lex

Originally posted by bob2000
Yeah, this is a really bad example. Your trying to say they killed innocent jews (when its not normal for one to feel okay about killing innocent people) becuase of the influence of propaganda and not due to another cause....
So if propaganda=control like you say. then 911research must be exerting control on you right, Im mean according to your own equating propaganda with control here. Since the only thing that has changed is your opinion of the government, this basically proves thats pretty much all propaganda can do.

What it cannot do is change the culture of a society in a planned way. It cannot change the nature of people or how they act in a planned way....

OK not the best example, and yes I know about the experiment. People will do what they are told by an authority cause they put the responsibility on the authority figure. The media works in the same way, the media to the mass population IS an authority so I stand by what I said. I didn't say it was the only influence, just a huge part where most control of the population starts.

Why are you so desperate to excuse the media anyway? I have had personal experience with it and it's full of lies. Most journo's are lazy and take news that comes in from outside sources (e.g. government press releases) at face value and print it without checking the story themselves.

No the 9-11 media is not controlling anyone, unless you are allowing it to.
I make my own mind up about 9-11, and use the media to gain information.
Big difference than the mass population who take what the mass media tells then as fact. 9-11 media, is not MASS media, it's not an outlet for government, or corporations to influence your thoughts and actions.

The control only works if you don't QUESTION, sry but I question EVERYTHING.

Yes it can change culture, there is tons of proof of that. I think I already gave you the punk example and how the media was used to take a movement from a movement of personal expression, and a threat to the status quo, to mass commercial 'buy on the high street punk clothes' and music that was safe for mass consumption. And the sheep followed.

I could give you tons more...Manson used to discredit hippies (Manson was not a hippie just another psychopath). Sid Vicious was used the same way for the punk movement (He wasn't a punk, just another media clone). Both situations exploited by use of the media, to control.

Sry but the mass media IS used to control (influence if you prefer) the population.

[edit on 6/1/2007 by ANOK]

If there really was a conspiracy going on right now, an evil secret society, I guarantee you would not have the freedom to even rebut this thread. YOud already been improsoned already for som bull# charge meant to silence you.

Originally posted by In nothing we trust

I once had similar thoughts of, 'why would they let people expose the truth?' The only logical answer can be, 'the exposure of the truth plays right into thier hands.' Chaos is freedom for the devil, the one true god on this earth. The mafia, the masons and the church all worship the devil.

Everything is known, silence serves no purpose.

Revelation 22:10
Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11 Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

bibleresources.bible.com...

The see-eye-a (CIA) is the underground intelligence organization of satan.

Who's eye is in the pyramid on the $1.00 bill
www.abovetopsecret.com...

BTW, the eye on the pyramid belongs to discordia the goddess of chaos, discord and strife. She is the one, in greek mythology, who ate the fruit of the tree of good and evil.

The reason that the kennedy assination and 9/11 were never properly investigated is because those on the investigation committees knew the truth and they were terrified of it.

[edit on 22-12-2006 by In nothing we trust]

i belive the starter of this thread has mentions several times that there is no way this kind of plan could work unless it was somehow supernatural. well, this is exactlly what it is. the above quote from innothingwetrust explains some of this. there are ancient books that go into detail about the whole thing. there are powers that most people dont understand that have been working toward this global control for centuries. but i have a feeling that if you dont belive that the masses are being influenced by simple television then you will never belive how far this does go. again this whole plan does have supernatural roots. i know this will be hard for you to understand but i tell you the truth.



[edit on 6-1-2007 by Funkydung]

Originally posted by ANOK
People will do what they are told by an authority cause they put the responsibility on the authority figure. The media works in the same way, the media to the mass population IS an authority so I stand by what I said. I didn't say it was the only influence, just a huge part where most control of the population starts.

You are distorting what authoritive influence is. Sure, the media could be considered an authorative figure, but in the context of the experiment, it is not this. THe experiment I mentioned also found that proximity was a factor too. The subject was more likely to follow orders when the scientist was near him than when he was far away doing somthing. When it comes to proximity, the media is VERY FAR AWAY. ITs a TV set, not a person in the same room as you shouting orders. very far and very different. As far as this kind of authorative influence goes, the media has virtually none of it on people.

Why are you so desperate to excuse the media anyway? I have had personal experience with it and it's full of lies. Most journo's are lazy...

Im explaining what the media is truly capable of. YOu are severely distorting its capabilities. Given that a propaganda campeign was used, all it can do is manipulate opinions, thats really about it. Your claiming it can brainwash people, this is incorrect. You are also distorting what the media does. We know it has bias, but your going as far as saying theres a huge nazi propaganda campeign going on in the US today. Just to show you how off this is, look at the fact that Foxnews has on many occasions had CTers come on and explain their theory in fornt of millions of eyes. THis makes no sense if there is a propaganda campeign, this is counter productive. why plant the seed that weakens the propaganda. During WWII in germany, you would never see a radio show where jews would come on and explain themselves to the german people. wouldnt happen. I would expect FOX news to do the same with the CTers, not show them, if such a propaganda campeign did exist in the US as you claim.

No the 9-11 media is not controlling anyone, unless you are allowing it to.
Big difference than the mass population who take what the mass media tells then as fact. 9-11 media, is not MASS media, it's not an outlet for government, or corporations to influence your thoughts and actions.

Propaganda is propaganda. It doesnt matter who is using it, why or on what scale. It is clear the 911websites are on a mission to persuade you that the US govt is evil, not provide you with an objective view. If you cant see that they are using propaganda techniques, then they definitely have you. Based on your logic, aspects of your personality should have changed since you were exposed, since according to you, propaganda changes more than just opinions, it changes personality too.

Yes it can change culture, there is tons of proof of that. I think I already gave you the punk example and how the media...

There are so many obstacles that get in the way of a corp using the media to make people buy their clothes. People have diversity in their tastes, peer influence on what is "hot" has a profound effect, far more than any TV set will have. peer influence varies regionally. Other corps are competing to use TV to sell their clothes which delude and counteract the effect of any individual competing clothing corps ability to us TV to get people to buy their stuff. In fact, the people are actually controlling the corps, not the other way around. The corps arent making people want to buy their clothes, but rather selling the kinds of clothes based on what people like. This is so obvious to the corperations, that they dont even try to control people, they instead focus on figuring out what people already want, and play on that. not the other way around by trying to control what they want in the first place.

[edit on 8-1-2007 by bob2000]

Originally posted by Funkydung

i belive the starter of this thread has mentions several times that there is no way this kind of plan could work unless it was somehow supernatural. well, this is exactlly what it is. the above quote from innothingwetrust explains some of this. there are ancient books that go into detail about the whole thing. there are powers that most people dont understand that have been working toward this global control for centuries. but i have a feeling that if you dont belive that the masses are being influenced by simple television then you will never belive how far this does go. again this whole plan does have supernatural roots. i know this will be hard for you to understand but i tell you the truth.
[edit on 6-1-2007 by Funkydung]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence!

Im sure you wouldnt dare post about claims of the existence of supernatural powers without some scientific evidence to back it up right.

^Dude you're severely distorting what I have said, and made a lot of assumptions about me.

If you can't see how much media effects how society thinks, and then acts on those thoughts, then you need to get out more.

Proximity? How far does the average person sit away from their TV set?

You really need to think about this some more. Your imagination can't see any alternatives, so you can't see what it is that the media is doing.

It doesn't effect me or you, we obviously have other interests than TV and we question things. It works on the avarage joe who comes home from work tired and stressed and veges in front of the set, not thinking about what is being fed to them. They except the picture of how reality is presented to them without question. They eventually become that reality, the stereotype that is presented.

[edit on 8/1/2007 by ANOK]