How Do You Tell A Sunni From A Shi'ite?

You and your government shouldn't keep your hopes up about that. There are shia's who've joined sunni resistance groups, and sunni's who've joined shia reistance groups. And no matter how much hate is around, everyone still hates your occupations guts.

you can't really generalise people

Syrian sister, You always provide hours of entertainment. You know it is hard to take anything you say seriuosly when you contradict yourself constantly.

So how about actually adding something useful to this thread. A person asked a legitamate question and is trying to educate themselves. They are curious, and all that your reply adds is propaganda. So why dont you put your agenda aside for a few minutes and actually try to pass your knowledge along in a polite, nonagenda way.

The first Muslims were of course from the Arabian Peninsula. When they pushed their religion northward into Iraq, Syria, and Iran they were of course met with some hostility because they did not appreciate these "foreigners" from the Arabian peninsula conquering them. Shortly after these peoples (Iraqis, Persians, and Syrians) were conquered and accepted Islam, they still considered themselves different from the original muslims from the Arabian peninsula and held some animosity.

So Shi'ites are Syrian, Persian, and Mesopotamian in ethnicity while Sunis are Arabian (from Arabian Peninsula) in origin.

OK Grover - the above post might not have anything to do with the Sunni/Shi'ite divide (or Religious Denominations in general) - but when you think about it 'hotpinkurinalmint' does indeed have a point. I believe that the above quote is historically accurate in what happened in terms of a Culture/Ethnicity Conquering another Culture/Ethnicity. If you examine what the typical Iranian looks like you will see that they look much more Aryan than Semitic (although they are obviously a mix of the two). Interesting side note - the Caucus Mountain Region (you know were the word "Caucasian" is derived) is located in that area - in between Russia & Iran/Turkey I believe. I just got done watching a Special on TV about how even though Iran's Government are Fundamentalist Shi'ites one of the most popular Religious Holidays in Iran is based on the countries ZOROASTRIAN Roots (Persia is were Zoroastrianism originated remember). The Hardline Islamists HATE it & are trying to wipe it out - but so far they have been unable to - now that is a popular holiday!

Here is a link to a thread that I started on the whole Sunni vs. Shi'ite thing:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 21-12-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 21-12-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

I think Shiites differ from Sunnis as much as Democrates from Republicans.

Both sects believe in the same religion, differ in who should rule....that too not today.
They differ on who should have ruled after Prophet Muhammad....more than 1400 years ago.


Generally, it looks, today, both are Anti-USA............equally!



Any comments from those who know/understand more....wellcome!




chaudri

Originally posted by jsobecky
It's pretty clear, at least to me, that the violence in Iraq is a case of Iraqi's killing Iraqi's. This conflict is centuries old. It's also clear to me that Saddam controlled these factions with an iron fist. Al Maliki is too weak to control the situation, that is why he is doomed to fail.

But the conflict betwen Sunni and Shi'ite brings up a question: how do you tell a Sunni from a Shi'ite? I mean, apart from the religious split. How do Sunnis know that they are killing Shi'ites and vice versa? Do they look different? Dress differently? Do they live in distinct neighborhoods?

No, the conflict is not centuries old. It is in fact an artificial event that is unique to this century, and brought about by the war that so many on this board seem to enjoy - and for that very reason, it seems.

Islam has been around for a long time, and has been divided into shi'te and sunni for most of that time. There have been dynastic scuffles over which team should be in charge through history - but it has never been full-out shi'ite vs. sunni. Back in the old days it was simply people fighting over who would be a better ruler, with people from both sects bridging the divide quite often.

What we have here is a storm of chaos that got started by Saddam and fueled by Bush the First. Saddam took over and put the minority Sunnis and Christians in his cabinet and cracked down on any Shi'ite movement, then went to war against the Shi'ite Iran. Then after the Gulf War, Poppy encouraged a Shi'ite revolution with the implication that America would back them... Well, America didn't, and Saddamn and his Sunni Ba'athists crushed down even harder on them.

So fast forward to the American invasion of Iraq. The Ba'athists were stripped of power, and some Shi'ites saw a chance for revenge against them and their supporters. It had nothing to do with the sectarian divide back then, it was simply murder over politics.

However, thanks to American media (and thus middle eastern media) highlighting it as religion vs. religion, that's what it's become. It's been escalated to the point where it seems at least in Baghdad, the two groups are honestly trying to exterminate one another.

But it is not "centuries old".

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
No, the conflict is not centuries old. It is in fact an artificial event that is unique to this century, and brought about by the war that so many on this board seem to enjoy - and for that very reason, it seems.

I beg to differ. The violence today may seem more intense, but that's only because weapons are more deadly now.

What caused the original divide?

The groups first diverged after the Prophet Muhammad died in 632, and his followers could not agree on whether to choose bloodline successors or leaders most likely to follow the tenets of the faith.

The group now known as Sunnis chose Abu Bakr, the prophet’s adviser, to become the first successor, or caliph, to lead the Muslim state. Shiites favored Ali, Muhammad’s cousin and son-in-law. Ali and his successors are called imams, who not only lead the Shiites but are considered to be descendants of Muhammad. After the 11th imam died in 874, and his young son was said to have disappeared from the funeral, Shiites in particular came to see the child as a Messiah who had been hidden from the public by God.

The largest sect of Shiites, known as “twelvers,” have been preparing for his return ever since.

How did the violence start?

In 656, Ali’s supporters killed the third caliph. Soon after, the Sunnis killed Ali’s son Husain.

Fighting continued but Sunnis emerged victorious over the Shiites and came to revere the caliphate for its strength and piety.

Shiites focused on developing their religious beliefs, through their imams.

hnn.us...

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
Why would you want to tell the difference. The less difference the better.

The only way to tell is through the ID card, and even then it's probably fake.

I do think its fantastic that Shiites and Sunnis have re-discovered that they hate each other more than they Hate Westerners !

You and your government shouldn't keep your hopes up about that. There are shia's who've joined sunni resistance groups, and sunni's who've joined shia reistance groups. And no matter how much hate is around, everyone still hates your occupations guts.


^hotpinkurinal mint.

Informative, but one small correction, tha majority of Syria is sunni though not ethnically arab.

[edit on 20-12-2006 by Syrian Sister]

And yet here you are once again generalizing people. Syrian sister I enjoy your posts they provide me with almost endless opportunity for a good giggle. So to echo a previous poster instead of trying to spread hate again try to share your knowledge using a little less propoganda who knows I might even change my opinion; certainly I would like to understand a society that is different then mine and learn more about it. Care to share?

Originally posted by jsobecky
But my question was serious. Iraqis attacking Iraqis. How can they be sure they are not attacking their own group?

Cities like Najaf , Karbala , Hella and Sadr City have big majorities of Shia . Wherever you throw a bomb there you'll be killing shias .

Accounted on sunnis there is a fanatical groups called Salafis , and Takfiris (the one who consider all others as Kafirs/Infidels) , Al Zarqawi for an example . Those groups are also against sunnis who don't join them in Jihad against the occupation or the shia who are considered as hypochrites more dangerous than jews and christians . They consider such sunnis as apostates .
It's not like the attacker would care if he killed a sunni or a non shia by mistake .

Originally posted by jsobecky
I beg to differ. The violence today may seem more intense, but that's only because weapons are more deadly now.

The term sunni is not for an homogenous group of believes , ideologies and thoughts . They differ between eachothers , among what they differ on it is the hate amount or love for shias .

Shia despise and disassociate from the oppressors and the usurpers of the prophet and his household's rights .
Some of these oppressors are revered by sunnis because of different reasons like ignorance or doubting in historical facts , or justifications for their deeds (according to some odd believes) . Those are called by shia as the weakened or some of them the adamants (those who don't follow reason for subjective matters) . They are by theory kafirs but practically muslims . Some shia scholars consider them as muslims by theory and practically .

With peacefull sunnis shias doesn't have problems in coliving and emphasizing how they should work together for the betterment of all mankind ... "
Ayatullah Seestani's message to sunnis in this context is : "Sunnis are not only our bretherns , but they are ourselves " . link in arabic .

The only violences that happened between shias and sunnis were because of Nasibis , who are a group accounted on sunnis that hold enmity , attack and hate shias for following the prophet and his household (pbuh) and disassociating from their enemies .
Wahabis and Takfiris are the current Nasibis in our times . Nasibis can be non sunnis and non muslims as well .
Other peoples may hate and fight shias but not for religious believes , they are not nasibis , but ennemies .

The historical incidents were between the infallibles (pbuh) and the shias from a side , and the nasibi oppressors , usurpers and their followers on their deeds from the other side .


[edit on 24-12-2006 by AnarShia]

Originally posted by Impreza
I'd just like to let you all know that it is the shi'a muslims who want the destruction of anything and everyone non-muslim. The sunni may also call westerners kafur, but they do not in any way wish to kill people simply because they have different beliefs. I'm no expert on this subject matter, but that's what I've gathered in the several years I spent living in Northern Iraq, as a kurd. My parents are from Iran, but they moved to Iraq after the Shah was overthrown in the late 70's.

You seem having a hate for shia because of the iranian so called shi'a regime . Well you have to differentiate between the "muslim brotherhood" oriented Khomeini , that is an exception in the 1400 years of shia history , and shia islam .
Neither shia or sunnis want the destruction of west . It is some political ideologies that get in conflict with western interests , or even created by western colonialism .

In shia believes a fallible have no right to initiate Jihad . The only Jihad is a defensive one . An Ayatullah who is a Marja' Taqleed (source of imitation) is the one who give a fatwa for a defensive Jihad .
Moreover shia doesn't care who rules as long as his ruling is a just one and doesn't prohibit shias from performing their rituals , as Imam Ali (pbuh) said : " Ruling can stay with Kufr , but doesn't stay with oppression " .

Good question...all these folks look alike...even to them. So what really seperates the groups? Do they they each ride different breeds of camels or something?

Originally posted by princeofpeace
Good question...all these folks look alike...even to them. So what really seperates the groups? Do they they each ride different breeds of camels or something?

racism much?
the ol' camel stereotype?
the "they look alike" cliche

anyway
i think it's just something you know about your neighbors
the people in iraq know which religion their neighbors are

just like in rwanda, we couldn't really tell the ethnic groups appart, but they knew because they lived together

Thank you, AnarShia, for that informative post. You have earned a WATS from me:

You have voted AnarShia for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

You know, to be honest, i could care less which group wants the destruction of all non-Muslims or the west yadda yadda yadda. Point blank it ain't happenin.

And what religion is it that Iran's president follows that permits him to make statements suggesting that Israel be wiped off the map? Sounds like a real peaceful religion to me.

Originally posted by princeofpeace
You know, to be honest, i could care less which group wants the destruction of all non-Muslims or the west yadda yadda yadda. Point blank it ain't happenin.

most shi'tes don't want to destroy the west
most sunnis don't want to destroy the west
in both cases it's a very tiny minority

And what religion is it that Iran's president follows that permits him to make statements suggesting that Israel be wiped off the map? Sounds like a real peaceful religion to me.

it isn't a religion that permits that, it's his position as a head of state with some popular support
not that i defend his statements or anything, it's just not his religion that permits him to make those statements

hell, some orthodox jews want israel wiped of the map...

some orthodox jews want israel wiped of the map...

No, not quite. You are referring to "some" of the Hasidic Jews here I believe. They don't support the State of Israel because as they Interpret their Scriptures they believe that it specifically states that GOD shall return the Jews back to their "Promised Land" a.k.a. "Israel" - NOT man. Remember that Zionism is a Geo-Political movement with "Religious Overtones" that uses the opposite interpretation of said Hebraic Scripture to back it up. Also because of the Tragic events of the Holocaust - after Nazi Germany was defeated in WWII - that the U.N. passed an Edict that stated that the "Jews" were now permitted to have their own home land in the Middle East/Palestine (Why do you think that Ahmadinejad is so obsessed about Denying the Holocaust took place?). This was followed up by a War in the 1960s that the Jews won - this is how the State of Israel was created.

Now this does NOT mean that Jews that don't believe in the STATE of Israel - whether Orthodox or Liberal/Secular Jews - want a repeat of the Holocaust i.e. the Genocide of the entire Israeli population. Come on... that is just Common Sense. If the Islamic Extremists had their way however - that would be a different story... when they say "Israel wiped off of the map" I am pretty sure that they would like to Destroy all of the Jews living there as well as the State itself!

QUOTE: "it isn't a religion that permits that, it's his position as a head of state with some popular support
not that i defend his statements or anything, it's just not his religion that permits him to make those statements"

Yes but he has stated many times how "religious" he is. He even sent Bush a letter this past year encouraging him to join his faith. If he is so deeply religious, then again i ask what religion permits him to speak freely about exterminating a people?

Originally posted by princeofpeace
Yes but he has stated many times how "religious" he is. He even sent Bush a letter this past year encouraging him to join his faith. If he is so deeply religious, then again i ask what religion permits him to speak freely about exterminating a people?

the KKK uses christianity as the bases for their anti-semitism and various other forms of bigotry
so does christian identity
and christian nationalism

christianity allows open talk about the extermination of the people
hell, the bible has instances in which god ORDAINS genocide and instructs people on how to carry it out

and Seraphim_Serpente, my point on the "wiping off the map" is a point on semantics
nothing more

[edit on 12/30/06 by madnessinmysoul]

Last time i checked, David Duke wasnt the president of a country either.

Originally posted by princeofpeace
Last time i checked, David Duke wasnt the president of a country either.

that's because this country never had a world superpower repeatedly interfere to keep an oppressive strongman in power to fight off the opposing superpower
even at the expense of toppling a democratically elected government

see, the USA exploited Iran
kept the shah in power
the shah was a brutal leader
they overthrew him and put a slightly leftist leader in place
the CIA orchastrated a reinstatement of the shah
then the shah was overthrown by islamic extremists because the Iranians thought ANYTHING would be better than he was

and my point was on THE RELIGIOUS ASPECT
just like you were implying that ISLAM ALLOWED PEOPLE TO BE BIGOTS
i showed that christianity does so as well

Qoute: "that's because this country never had a world superpower repeatedly interfere to keep an oppressive strongman in power to fight off the opposing superpower
even at the expense of toppling a democratically elected government"

I dont think thats the reason David Duke isnt the president of our country...i dont think the American people would elect an idiot like that. Iran on the other hand..........

Originally posted by princeofpeace
I dont think thats the reason David Duke isnt the president of our country...i dont think the American people would elect an idiot like that. Iran on the other hand..........

so you went from bigotry against islam to bigotry against iranians
nice shift
then again, looking at the post that got you a warn, i'm surprised you wouldn't vote for duke yourself