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Freemasonry and Christianity

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posted on Dec, 20 2006 @ 01:23 PM
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Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
I think the conflict between masonry and religion is created because religions must compete with freemasonry for people's time, money, and energy. Relgious leaders feel that money, time, and energy masons spend at their lodges could be spent at the church. Lodges also offer their members many of the things church's can offer like comraderie, friendships, activities, etc. Religious leaders do not describe this conflict as healthy competition, but as some sinister force undermining their affairs. So perhaps there is no real conflict between religion and freemasonry, but the two compete, and one party in the competition (religion) is being a poor sport about it.


Aigh, before I joined I had a long talk with my parish priest. He said that the pope, both John Paul and now Benidict (I'm Catholic) have forbidden any Catholic from joining the Masons, however he said that neither he nor any priest or bishop all the way to Arch Bishop in our diocese (sp) really cared. The punishment in the books for Catholics is excomunication (no longer allowed to receive communion) but American churches especially do not enforce that rule at all. But I am Catholic I don't know how it works for others like Baptist and such, I would talk with your priest or pastor.

When I wen't to the lodge, especially my first visit I was more surprised then anything about the close relationship between Christianity and Masonry. Especially within the York Rite, that in my opinion is a very Christian sect of Masonry though not explicitly so that other faiths cannot join, however that's where you get the templars and such, I know several York Rite guys who are also in the Catholics Knights of Columbus.

I think it is more or less what you want out of the Masons to see the connections, I am not here for religious purposes and therefore do not care if it is about religion for some, I don't know anyone who joined because of religion though, but if you are a religious person you will see the connections. Like the guy I quoted the conflict is over power, much like when protostants branched off Catholics hated them, only because it takes power from the Church, which sadly is all religion is about, power and money.




posted on Dec, 20 2006 @ 01:40 PM
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Does Freemasonry conflict with Christianity?

I would say masonary has nothing in commun with cristianity.
From a masons point of view all religions are compatible with masonary.
But religions do come in confict with each other but are united in the lodge.
From my point of view masonary is a transition from something to another something.
Something like, okay you know that, now we'll teach you something new, did you now that ....................
But how can this be compatible when religions are not compatible with each other, how do you satisfy all of them, you throw in a big lie and say, I'll tell you something new, and you cook up some story well all religions have a single point of view, you tell a story never herd before, and then you say, look we even have a bible in the lodge, you do belive us dont you?
Cristianity is not even compatible with it's self, as diffrent cristian religions come in conflict whith each other, catholicism is only compatible with cathloicism , ortodoxism is only compatible with ortodoxism , and so on.
The least compatible place is some mix up of the cristian religion with suns and piramids all over the place.



posted on Dec, 20 2006 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78

But religions do come in confict with each other but are united in the lodge.


And thus your fallacy.

The point that you've missed is that religions aren't united in the Lodge. People are.



posted on Dec, 20 2006 @ 02:41 PM
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Hey Pepsi - you know you SO make me laugh


You really don't understand freemasonry at all but you have VERY STRONG OPINIONS about it. Are you like this in other aspects of your life?


You went wrong quite early on in your post...


From a masons point of view all religions are compatible with masonary.

This is a very deceptive sentence as it has only been anti-masons who have ever brought up the compatability issue. They are not incompatible because there is no overlapping area of conflict, in very much the same way that soccer is not incompatible with grocery shopping, or stamp collecting. Freemasonry is a fraternity, not a religion.


But religions do come in confict with each other but are united in the lodge.
It is true that religions come into conflict with each other, primarily over how to define GOD or What is the Correct Way to Heaven? Because freemasonry does not attempt to define God or offer a route to Heaven, or indeed do anything else that a religion does, there is no conflict. The religions themselves are not "united in the lodge" as religious discussion is BANNED (hey - Pepsi - name me a religion where no-one is allowed to talk about religion :lol



how do you satisfy all of them, you throw in a big lie and say, I'll tell you something new, and you cook up some story well all religions have a single point of view, you tell a story never herd before, and then you say, look we even have a bible in the lodge, you do belive us dont you?

Fantastic. You just made this up on the spot, didn't you? Go on then - I'll bite. What's the LIE? How does the story go?


The least compatible place is some mix up of the cristian religion with suns and piramids all over the place.

That'll be Christian. And Pyramid. Oh, and there's no A in Masonry while we're at it. And just to confirm... there are no pyramids in freemasonry.

Pepsi - please don't think I'm laughing AT you. It's your viewpoint I'm laughing at. Can you imagine Manchester United fans, while celebrating their 4th goal against Barca, being concerned about which grocery store they all shop at. Or whether they collect stamps or not. It's absurd, isn't it?

Freemasonry is not a religion, and its teachings demonstrably support the tenets and principles of most of the major world religions.

It's the SIMILARITIES that bind us together, not the DIFFERENCES that tear us apart. Understand this, and you will have learned something today.



posted on Dec, 20 2006 @ 03:10 PM
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Well trinity man, why don't you answer the question of the thread, is it compatible?
We are talking about religion, so your answer of "masonary is not a religion" is really irelevant in this thread and off topic.
The question is "is cristianity compatible with masonary"
Another similar question would be" is cristianity compatible with sex with 2 woman at the same time"
As you see, having sex with 2 ladys is not a religion.
Nice try to throw the topic in another direction.
If masonary is a religion or not is irelevant in this thread.
The question is , is the ways of the lodge compatible with cristianity.
I would say no.




[edit on 20-12-2006 by pepsi78]



posted on Dec, 20 2006 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
Well trinity man, why don't you answer the question of the thread, is it compatible?

I think you must have missed my answer, as it was "hidden in plain sight".


Originally posted by Trinityman
They are not incompatible because there is no overlapping area of conflict.

Freemasonry has co-existed with religion quite happily for its entire history. Many members of the clergy have been freemasons (e.g. Geoffrey Fisher) and have not found any conflict. Freemasonry itself outlines quite clearly its relationship with religion here.

The real question should be "why would anyone think there is an incompatibility?"

Incidentally, I think it's easy to misread this question. IMO Freemasonry can be incompatible with "Fundamental" Christianity, depending on the personal belief of the individual. I can see that an interpretation of scripture to "witness at all times and in all places" could cause problems with membership of freemasonry (as well as potentially problems at work and socially too).

[edit on 12/20/06 by Trinityman]



posted on Dec, 20 2006 @ 04:29 PM
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Hello friends,

I would have to agree with Trinity, in that Pepsi does appear to hold very strong opinions about the institution of Freemasonry. What I find so puzzling is HOW did he develop such a notion with regard to the Fraternity? It's almost as if he JUST KNOWS, as if by magic or divination or something
I, myself, have posted on Masonic subjects in this forum previously and must admit a degree of guilt for improperly presenting certain eternal and universally applicable ideas. Ideas that are probably best left expressed by those, who are ACTUALLY MASONS
my humble apologies.

On a religious note, I have studied varied religions and can say with certainty I AM not a Christian in any orthodox sense. In fact, as little as a few hundred years ago, my religious views would have seen me as center attraction at a cookout
I think true religion is much older than most think and primarily centers on developing the good qualities we as humans possess. Many of the great prophets throughout antiquity never seemed to arrive on the world scene with a pacifistic agenda. They we always reformers and were usually persecuted for it-at least initially. My true religious strength comes from the idea of possessing an internal eternal component. Something human beings have that simply cannot be destroyed by mortal hands.

My feelings on this whole matter is that Pepsi is probably a very nice person which, in itself, is a tremendous gift. Couple that with a leadership ability and an accurate perception of the future and well he may just be a fundie, a fundie freemason
I personally like the sound of that.


Kindest Regards Friends,


Hang in their Pepsi



posted on Dec, 20 2006 @ 04:43 PM
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Rockpuck,

One of my friends who I was initiated it with had the same question regarding being Catholic and Masonry. On our first visit to the Lodge our Worshipful Master explained that many Catholics are Masons. Yes under papal law Masonry is grounds for excommunication but, at least in the States, I have NEVER heard of a case where anyone was actually excommunicated for membership. As far as I understand Catholicism most dioceses view the practice of Excommunication on grounds of Masonic membership as an archaic practice.



posted on Dec, 20 2006 @ 07:29 PM
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Freemasonry has co-existed with religion quite happily for its entire history.

I can coexist with a moster near me, as long as I have meet to give it to eat, when I no longer have that it will eat me.
coexistance does not equal compatiblility.



Incidentally, I think it's easy to misread this question. IMO Freemasonry can be incompatible with "Fundamental"Christianity,

define that, what is "Fundamental Christianity.
You mean crazy people? that is agains cristianity, god him self told that he does not like crazy people.
There is no such thing, cristianity is incompatible with masonary and thats about it.
If masonary is not a religion as you say, there is no problem , it does not really matter, it's incompatible any way from any perspective you look at.
Cristianity is in fact incompatible with most of the tings. over all.
There for masonary is incompatible with cristianity.
Not saying what is wrong or right , just saying it's incompatible.



posted on Dec, 20 2006 @ 08:07 PM
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Pepsi, this was a serious question I wanted to ask on this forum. So please, if you're going to express your feelings on something, show that you have atleast some knowledge about the topic. Also, before you make accusations on a rather strong topic, learn to spell your most basic words. I'm not saying I have wonderful grammar, but I'm finding it qutie the task to make out what you write.



posted on Dec, 20 2006 @ 09:15 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
In case you are not familiar with waht the Apostle John meant in his gospel, the word he actually used was Logos, translated as "the Word" in the KJV. This was borrowed from Greek philosophy, as Plato often spoke of the Divine Logos, centuries before the Advent of Christianity.


Actually no. Christianity has been around since the foundations of the Earth. So nothing can come before it. Only after it, and a puny counterfeit at best. As it is written, the WORD was with GOD and the WORD WAS GOD and the WORD was made flesh and revealed to be JESUS CHRIST, you see... nothing predates him.

Jesus plainly stated and I quote:

I tell you the truth, before Abraham, I AM. Where was Greek Philosophy before Abraham?


Originally posted by Masonic Light
In Freemasonry, the Word is an actual word, a password, whereby the ancient Masons could travel in foreign countries, work, and recognize each other.


This makes for some good sheep bait, but is it written? Are there manuscripts proven to date around the days of Solomon giving one precise instruction on these rituals and how to arrange them?


Originally posted by Trinityman
Oh dear 'Wise'sheep. It seems that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


As is darkness disguised as light.



posted on Dec, 20 2006 @ 09:42 PM
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Originally posted by WiseSheep

Originally posted by Masonic Light
In Freemasonry, the Word is an actual word, a password, whereby the ancient Masons could travel in foreign countries, work, and recognize each other.


This makes for some good sheep bait, but is it written? Are there manuscripts proven to date around the days of Solomon giving one precise instruction on these rituals and how to arrange them?



There is more written proof of the history of the early operative masons then the is of the existance of Jesus. Dont let your blind faith get in the way of the facts Brother
The truth is still the truth even if you deny it.

As far as the Masonic relationship with King Solomon, it is a story, a fable, an allegory. Kind of like many Christian traditions.

Honest questions get honest answers. Questions posed to discredit or set up a slanted, inaccurate anti-masonic sermon will be responded to in kind.



posted on Dec, 20 2006 @ 10:54 PM
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For the starter of the thread, I just don't get why don't you join and see how it is.
Think of it like this.
If they are trying to trick you in to joining and it's all bad, then you wont know any way, what guaranty do you have?
If I were you I would try to balance things, and if one thing seems wierd then I would recosider of staying out of it.
The best way to make an opinion is to read one of their books, and see if in your view this conflicts with what you belive.
Read morals and dogma, it's like a bible to them.
Don't just say, okay I'm joining, make sure what you are doing and if it's what you want.
From my point of view I don't need any fraternity to make my life better, my fraternity are my friends, but my friends don't dress in robes and preform rituals, we never do kinky stuff, our lodge could be any place, but we just call it a meeting place or a local I guess
we don't even have stickers, I guess were just a bunch of normal people talking intresting subjects, and we don't have simbols
who needs simbols any way.

My advice, if all you want is knolege you can do that with your friends, you can enrich your knolege by having conversation with your friends and with people on this forum, because this forum is filll with knolege.
This is what it comes down to, for knolege all you need is your self and the will to study, but when it comes to secrets
I guess people are fascinated by them.
What is the diffrece betwen a bunch of friends gathering toghether to debate on intelectual subjects and masonary?
Is there something they offer in plus?



posted on Dec, 20 2006 @ 11:19 PM
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Well Pepsi, for awhile now I have been planning on joining, but the reason I dont just jump in to see if I like it, and then leave if I don't, is because to join you must make that life long oath. I must promise before God and that is a heavy thing. As for whether it may give me a large amount of knowledge, no, either way that is up to me. I do think it will reasure my desire for learning though. As for my friends, they're not those type of people to partake in a long debate, or conversation. Our idea of fun is skateboarding and getting drunk, which is fun, but they don't care much for learning.

Thank you for your reply.



posted on Dec, 20 2006 @ 11:39 PM
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Originally posted by WiseSheep

Originally posted by Masonic Light
In case you are not familiar with waht the Apostle John meant in his gospel, the word he actually used was Logos, translated as "the Word" in the KJV. This was borrowed from Greek philosophy, as Plato often spoke of the Divine Logos, centuries before the Advent of Christianity.


Actually no. Christianity has been around since the foundations of the Earth. So nothing can come before it. Only after it, and a puny counterfeit at best. As it is written, the WORD was with GOD and the WORD WAS GOD and the WORD was made flesh and revealed to be JESUS CHRIST, you see... nothing predates him.

Jesus plainly stated and I quote:

I tell you the truth, before Abraham, I AM. Where was Greek Philosophy before Abraham?


Originally posted by Masonic Light
In Freemasonry, the Word is an actual word, a password, whereby the ancient Masons could travel in foreign countries, work, and recognize each other.


This makes for some good sheep bait, but is it written? Are there manuscripts proven to date around the days of Solomon giving one precise instruction on these rituals and how to arrange them?


Originally posted by Trinityman
Oh dear 'Wise'sheep. It seems that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


As is darkness disguised as light.


This is coming from a dyed in the wool Christian just to clarify (as in me)...you are obviously a literal translationist of the Bible. Jesus has been around since the beginning of time, yet the Bible says Jesus was crucified and died under Pontius Pilate. How is that the begging of time? Their exist hundreds of documents and artifacts that predate the event. Not to sound corny, but DENY IGNORANCE!



posted on Dec, 20 2006 @ 11:45 PM
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Originally posted by thexsword
Well Pepsi, for awhile now I have been planning on joining, but the reason I dont just jump in to see if I like it, and then leave if I don't, is because to join you must make that life long oath. I must promise before God and that is a heavy thing.

Well there you go, first incompability, how can you promise before god to a bunch of people?
I don't think god would want you to do this, to use his name to promise to a bunch of people, it's right there in the bible too, it's also bad to knee to any one, to any human being, this can be humiliating, it means that you are no more than a slave to them.
For me it's unaceptable.
remember in the apocalipse peeter kneeing down before an angel, and he told him, don't do this , don't kneee down before me, don't knee down before any one, because I'm just like you, you don;t even have to knee down to an angel.
God is only one.


Now gathering to talk with a group of people about a subject is acceptable, but why weare stupid robes? and get in circles is something I don't get.
Is it something you want to learn, are you just curios about masonary?
What is it really that intrests you in masonary?



As for whether it may give me a large amount of knowledge, no, either way that is up to me. I do think it will reasure my desire for learning though. As for my friends, they're not those type of people to partake in a long debate, or conversation.

Well good, have fun, keep your friends and also make new ones that offer you what you need as in debating, this forum has alot of people , this is a great place to start.
make sure what you are doing is right for you.



[edit on 20-12-2006 by pepsi78]

[edit on 20-12-2006 by pepsi78]



posted on Dec, 21 2006 @ 12:03 AM
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So it's wrong to lay a knee for anyone, how do you explain Communion? I've never experienced a Communion where I did not lay a knee down. Wait let me guess, laying a knee in that situation is laying a knee for God; despite I willfully do it in front of a Minister who is absolutely wiser than me in the subject; but still does not represent the Word of God, but merely our understanding of it.

[edit on 21-12-2006 by Baphomet79]



posted on Dec, 21 2006 @ 12:26 AM
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Originally posted by Baphomet79
So it's wrong to lay a knee for anyone, how do you explain Communion? I've never experienced a Communion where I did not lay a knee down. Wait let me guess, laying a knee in that situation is laying a knee for God; despite I willfully do it in front of a Minister who is absolutely wiser than me in the subject; but still does not represent the Word of God, but merely our understanding of it.

[edit on 21-12-2006 by Baphomet79]

Kneeing before some one blind folded is not only humiliating but also in contradicton with cristianity
read the bible the apocalipse.
You're not supose to knee before any one, it's in the bible

i would not knee to any not only because it's about religion, but because it's also degrading.
If one is wiser I don't have to kiss his feet, I can stand side by side on my foot with him and listen to him while he is speaking but I don't see why I have to knee before him, you can respect some one with out having to do humiliating things, for example you can be polite and apreciate his work, but kneeng before some one makes him god.
It's like saying "YES MASTER" "RIGHT AWAY MASTER"
I don't have a human master, my only master is god, the one that created this universe and everyting that is in it, he is the only one worth bowing down to.



posted on Dec, 21 2006 @ 07:12 AM
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Originally posted by thexsword
Well Pepsi, for awhile now I have been planning on joining, but the reason I dont just jump in to see if I like it, and then leave if I don't, is because to join you must make that life long oath.


Just for the record, there is nothing in the obligation that would prohibit a man from resigning his membership, should he so desire.

Also, regardless of what Mr. Cola claims, Masons do not kneel before any other men in the ceremony of initiation. The candidate kneels during the prayer given in his behalf, and it is neither humiliating nor dishonorable for a man to kneel before that awesome God who gave him life, light, and love.



posted on Dec, 21 2006 @ 08:26 AM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
... it is neither humiliating nor dishonorable for a man to kneel before that awesome God who gave him life, light, and love.

Nicely put. Its a shame for some people that no matter how heartfelt our explanations of the Craft are, there are some who wilfully disbelieve anything that is said. Ignorance will never be banished for the close-minded, and I genuinely feel pity for them.

Maybe it's the time of year, but I've come over all "hug an Anti today".

Merry Christmas!






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