End all be all...Russia's Status as a Super Power

Originally posted by rogue1
LOL, I find this totally amusing with stellarx, he can post all these sources which prove nothing of what the real economic situation in th world is all about.

So what does prove what the real economic situation in the world is? Please provide us with the sources that specific why my conclusions are so 'wrong'. If you can not make specific claims as i do ( based on source material ) why are you here?

All it shows is his ignorance of what economics is.

How and why and what would your definition of economics be?

Tyical tactics of borwbeating people with posts which have little or no relevance to the subject being discussed.

How so? Why should i stand to be insulted by a bunch of ignorant children who never bother using sources and start screaming the moment anyone shows that there is actual alternative views the few times they do present source material ? You have never rarely contributed to discussion on ATS and i wonder why you even bother coming here.

Whilst he thinks he is somehow enlightening people, almost everyone just rolls there eyes.

Why do you persist in claims of speaking for others? Are you so insecure that you must imagine yourself part of a crowd so as to attack me with your baseless claims? You embody so many of the traits that destroys constructive activity on forum such as these.

I am still waiting for some information which actually shows that he knows anything about what he is talking about. But hey we've all been waiting since he joined up.

More lies that you never have and never will be able to support with the remotest fact. Why are you so vain as to believe that i will stop posting because you slander me for absence of real options?

As well I also find it funny that ghe tells people to enlighten himslef by reading certain authors when it is obvious to me ( as I hvae read some f these books ) that he hasn't read these books at all.

I have read more books about a far wider variety of topics than you are likely to read if you keep on for the rest of your life. Just keep up the slander as anyone who supports your discussions tactics exposes themselves by proxy. If you want to make specific factual allegations against the data and ideas i provided please do so here and now.

Stellar


[edit on 11-1-2007 by StellarX]

Originally posted by semperfoo
Im convinced that no one in their right mind will convince stellar of anything otherwise.

Your mind being a prime example of such minds i suppose? You might think your insulting me but i believe a few more educated readers might find reason to chuckle about these types of accusations.

I didnt bother reading his incoherent babbleing in response to something I wrote over a week ago.

So there is a expiry date on your ideas? It's pretty evident that you do not really want to discuss your views and are simply here to propagandize. That is just fine as long as you are ready to have your views contested when they have so little to do with reality. I respond due to the data ( or shall i say the lack of it) being presented and not due to some kind of obsessions to defend my vapid beliefs about the country i happened to be born in.

He couldnt argue it then why all of a sudden now?

Believe it or not but i was active on other threads and not here to attempt propagandizing those who do not take active part in the discussion. Everyone who takes part will see the update and will be able to evaluate the response in their own time.

I came by in a school bus, I picked him up, and i took him to school.

I think i have pointed out that you have no drivers license and were attempting to take me to church, not school.

His sources are a joke just like he is. And to think their are ppl out there that actually take the time to read this schumks propaganda filled crap.

Free speech does have it's problems but i think i can deal with you.

Somebody needs to get themselve a women.

Yup! This is all pent up sexual frustration since i am gay and refuse to come out of closet so to speak.

What troubles me most is that i am in 'discussion' with someone that believes one can 'cure' yourself of reality by means of women.

I have found women introduces more reality than they taketh away but that's just me!

Good luck

Stellar

Originally posted by ape
I use to take the time to read stellars sources but that all ended when he started posting garbage from prison planet and alex jones telling me it's good medicine and i'm a disgrace to my country if I dont bow before alex jones,

I have found that people who stop reading normally do so because they want to and not due to being 'forced' or due to the absence of reality or facts. If you do not want to read that is fine as it is possible that you lack the knowledge to understand what your reading.

whats also funny is when he links up the .ru sourceS HAHAHA.

When?

stellar lost any credability he had along time ago,

With you? Do you think i consider your opinion of me worthy of attention?

I have also noticed he does not respond to some posts that totally debunk what he spews.

I never ignore posts but some slip by ( go back and see if it's more than 10 in 1000) and some i can not spare the time to research at that stage. In the long run i do respond to every and all post's that i think are not true as i will with everyone you have made in response to something i said. Frankly i don't think i can do much for your condition so i am finishing up responses to others before you get my full attention.

I know as long as I frequent this site I will always challenge his unfathomable position.

You will stop frequenting this site in the next few weeks probably due to the fact that you can not act in any remotely civil way when your religion is questioned. It is in a way sad that you will get banned before i get to expose you for the Sycophantic pandering lying plagiarist that you are. You get your free slander time for now but as with most easily gained luxuries it will not last.

Stellar

why would u ask when you posted a .ru source? dont you even know what in the hell you're posting?

this is a link you provided in page 3, english.pravda.ru...


so please cut the crap, you posture with misinformation too often on this site, none of the information you provide is valid and you have a bias opinion against america. you have been debunked plenty of times and I find it funny how you 'overlook' posts that debunk you when you constantly followed those threads and posted in them, you make so many excuses it's pathetic.


please continue to bait me and rogue and semper into getting out of line and down to your level because it's not gonna work and it will eventually get you banned for troll/flaming. you think you're so cute with how you word your paragraphs like it's civil and not meant to be insulting to the person it's directed at. when someone fired back you cry foul and advocate for them to get banned, it's really exposing on your part.

[edit on 11-1-2007 by ape]

With the personal attacks I see from Stellar's posts I am suprised he is not banned yet? He seems to bait a lot. And while he in intitled to his opinions, objectivity is not exactly his strong point, as he believes. As such I don't think he contributes much to the discussion, and I have chosen to 'ignore' him.

[edit on 11-1-2007 by Hiphar]

hah!, highpar if only I had your discipline =). I dont think i can ever ignore stellarX as it's so amusing even though it can be insulting at times I always remind myself it's coming from someone in capetown south africa who frequents prison planet =).

[edit on 11-1-2007 by ape]

You have voted semperfoo for the Way Above Top Secret award.

Way to tell it like it is - instead of how some on this thread would wish it is.

I keep seeing thread after thread like this, where they sound like little kids jumping up and down and screaming, "We're still relevent, we're still relevent!"

Truth is that on the world stage Russia is still invited to economic conferences, strategic conferences and asked to participate in middle east issues to throw them a bone based on the past. Just like you give a candy to a noisy kid to get them to quiet down and leave you alone. How does Russia act when they start feeling "ignored" again? Like a little kid acting up - they throw little temper tantrums and shut off somebody's gas or oil for a couple of days - until they get someone to say, "Yes, you still matter. And here's some more candy."

Regarding economics, the truth is that Putin needs to be seen standing there with all the G8 leaders (to make it appear that he still matters) way more than the rest of the G8 leaders need to have Putin there. Here's the true test. What would be decided differently at the G8 if Putin wasn't there? Can anyone really think of anything? Didn't think so.

Originally posted by StellarX

It is well known that Russia lacks the necessary controls over it's bomb grade materials.

Originally posted by StellarX Which is one one of those well known western media myths as far as my research goes. Not sure if it's true for chemical and biological weapons thought but if the US can sell such to Iraq i guess the USSR might have had some 'accidental' transfers as well.

Uh, what about the millions of dollars and all the people the U.S. sent to Russia to secure their unprotected nuclear and other WMD's because Russia couldn't maintain control over them themselves? What about the missions that actually took weapons grade material out of the former soviet onion to keep it from falling into the wrong hands. Now you can attempt to call that a "myth", as well, but I know someone who went. This person doesn't say a lot about the missions - because they can't. However, I will guarantee you that if you heard what they do have to say, that even you would believe it, too - and probably quit posting any more of these "Russian dream threads".

[edit on 1/11/2007 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by ape
why would u ask when you posted a .ru source? dont you even know what in the hell you're posting?

this is a link you provided in page 3, english.pravda.ru...

I know exactly what i posting and there is nothing wrong with Pravda these days. It's better than numerous US news agencies ( that's not saying much but it's a start imo) for raw data and you would be well advised to actually read before you just rabidly attack anything Russian.

so please cut the crap, you posture with misinformation too often on this site,

No crap and no misinformation but your free to attempt proving all those vague typically slanderous claims. Your playground notions of discussion is really laughably childish but about as effective as a feather in a knife fight.

none of the information you provide is valid

Something that might be true but you have never once proved anything like it.

and you have a bias opinion against america.

I only treat lies and misinformation , as provided with you, with some bias as it's hard to take your nonsense seriously. I do not have a problem with the American people but with the actions their government have taken against the world in the last five decades.

you have been debunked plenty of times

Not once and not by you. Why do you have to make up lies to defend what you never could prove? How old are you?

and I find it funny how you 'overlook' posts that debunk you when you constantly followed those threads and posted in them,

I do not have time for every and all posts and you will have noticed that you are the only person i am not responding to on a regular basis. I do have all your posts bookmarked and will respond to them in good time. I would much rather help inform those who have some semblance of sanity in sight than encourage your childish behaviour by responding. There are no forum rules that tells me i must respond to any post with a few days or a week and not responding to someone NEVER makes their views the truth.

you make so many excuses it's pathetic.

What excuses? The fact that i do not have the time to argue with a insulting ignorant child who throws temper tantrums the moment anyone points out the lies he believes to be true? There is no way i can respond to all the nonsense you type in a single day so i am first trying to focus my energy on people who are interested in real discussion and not just slanderous exchanges with those who are trying to inform them.

please continue to bait me and rogue and semper into getting out of line and down to your level because it's not gonna work and it will eventually get you banned for troll/flaming.

There is no way any sane person is going to ban me before they ban all three of you and if you even consider that possibility you are grip on reality is fading ever faster.

you think you're so cute with how you word your paragraphs like it's civil and not meant to be insulting to the person it's directed at.

It is in my opinion and i don't see how i could treat such undeserving nonsense in a fairer way.

when someone fired back you cry foul and advocate for them to get banned, it's really exposing on your part.

I have never called anyone stupid or a idiot but that is what Rogue called me. That is not even close to within the rules yet Rogue gets to keep posting . Do you not find it odd that some of us can so blatantly break the rules while others are moderated on a daily basis when they respond in kind to such open attacks?

Your education is only starting and i suggest you buy a new chair for extra comfort.

Stellar

Originally posted by Hiphar
With the personal attacks I see from Stellar's posts I am suprised he is not banned yet?

Is it a personal attack when it can be proved to be the truth? When i call someone ignorant of a certain topic matter they are and i KNOW i can prove it given a remotely objective judge.

He seems to bait a lot.

So is correcting ignorance now called baiting by some? This is a interesting new twist.

And while he in intitled to his opinions, objectivity is not exactly his strong point, as he believes.

Willing to name a few instances or are you happy slinging slanderous accusations around as if they involve reality?

As such I don't think he contributes much to the discussion, and I have chosen to 'ignore' him.

Since i am not sure you have the maturity to fairly evaluate what i think and post on i can only thank you for choosing to ignore me thus saving me the temper tantrums of another brat who wants to believe what he likes and hates everyone who contests his propaganda.

Stellar

Originally posted by ape
hah!, highpar if only I had your discipline =).
I dont think i can ever ignore stellarX

Since discipline is based on knowledge and maturity in general i'm not surprised you don't have any.

as it's so amusing even though it can be insulting at times I always remind myself it's coming from someone in capetown south africa

What's wrong with Cape Town and/or South-Africa?

who frequents prison planet =).

Great site which everyone would be well advised to frequent so as to inform themselves and discover what is really going on in the world they think they know something about.

Stellar

Originally posted by centurion1211
You have voted semperfoo for the Way Above Top Secret award.

Way to tell it like it is - instead of how some on this thread would wish it is.

I do not mind if people share their opinions as opinions and normally only get involved when i disagree with their conclusions or notice that their selling their baseless opinion as fact.

I keep seeing thread after thread like this, where they sound like little kids jumping up and down and screaming, "We're still relevent, we're still relevent!"

It's after all VERY important for people like me to gain the respect of people like you! You accuse me of being self involved?

Truth is that on the world stage Russia is still invited to economic conferences, strategic conferences and asked to participate in middle east issues to throw them a bone based on the past.

Evidence? Why could Russia settle it's foreign debt today had it wanted to? How does that make them irrelevant in your opinion?

Just like you give a candy to a noisy kid to get them to quiet down and leave you alone.

I might try that on you in the near future so thanks for the advice...

How does Russia act when they start feeling "ignored" again?

You seem to be well informed on this matter so feel free to tell us.

Like a little kid acting up - they throw little temper tantrums and shut off somebody's gas or oil for a couple of days - until they get someone to say, "Yes, you still matter. And here's some more candy."

So controlling European energy supplies makes them unimportant and children to be treated with disrespect?Is that why America is attempting to encircle the Russian federation and their allies with all those new bases? What planet are you from and what happened to their education system?

Regarding economics, the truth is that Putin needs to be seen standing there with all the G8 leaders (to make it appear that he still matters) way more than the rest of the G8 leaders need to have Putin there.

Proof?

[quoteHere's the true test. What would be decided differently at the G8 if Putin wasn't there? Can anyone really think of anything? Didn't think so.



What a bunch of baseless nonsensical claims that was! How did you achieve such a comprehensive state of ignorance in such a short span of time?

Originally posted by centurion1211
Uh, what about the millions of dollars and all the people the U.S. sent to Russia to secure their unprotected nuclear and other WMD's because Russia couldn't maintain control over them themselves?

Clever Russians to convince people to give them cash they will spend as they see fit. Why did the Russians have so much money to upgrade and deploy new strategic weapons and nuclear warheads but not enough money ( according to the west) to disband their older warheads? How powerful must you be so that others give you something for nothing which they will surely use against you? Why do the Russian have a national ABM system when the US does not? Why is the US economic and strategic position declining so very fast?

What about the missions that actually took weapons grade material out of the former soviet onion to keep it from falling into the wrong hands.

Links would be good.

Now you can attempt to call that a "myth", as well, but I know someone who went.

As far as i know there is some truth to it but not as much as you might think and the proliferation that did happen wasn't 'accidental'. That's from memory so here is a golden chance to 'expose' me as you guys so frequently claim to have done.

This person doesn't say a lot about the missions - because they can't. However, I will guarantee you that if you heard what they do have to say, that even you would believe it, too -

I have no real interest in these 'personal' accounts if they can not be supported by official intelligence data as i am not into sucking things out of my thumbs or simple believing the opinions of people who claim 'they' know but can't or refuse to prove what their saying. I keep it all in mind but it's pretty useless in terms of the well supported intelligence and defense data i normally employ.

and probably quit posting any more of these "Russian dream threads".

Then show up the flaws in my reasoning based on your own source material. Please contest the volume of data i have presented in the past when no one else did disprove the main tenants or anything at all. These vague slanderous attacks is fine if your going to at least provide sources as to why you disagree but in their absence i believe it's easy to expose who is ignorant of reality and who is not.

Stellar

I think Russia is still relevant, however not to the extent the Soviet Union was, but that was because the Soviet Union was the ideological superpower of Communism, and to a lesser extent China. Today that ideology does not have the world wide attraction it once did, and has been in retreat since the fall of the eastern block. Except for some tyrants in the backward bannana republics, that sort of socialistic empire is, as Kruschev once exclaimed, "on the asheap of history". Even China, the last large power to claim communism as it's faith, is distancing itself more and more from Marx and Engels.
Militarily Russia has some interesting left over military hardware and technology, however that is fading as well. They still can produce some interesting hardware, maybe comparable to some western hardware at best, however if you think about it, if you were a Russian military designer, who would you want to work for? Some underfunded Russian defense industry, or McDonnal Douglas, Martin Marietta or Lockheed who are flush with money, projects, jobs and future. Not that there are many defense jobs left in Russia these days, not nearly as many as there once were. Their aviation industry has totally halted. Hardly any new aircraft of any type are being produced for use within Russia, and exports are very limited. A perfect example is the production of airliners in Russia. Nobody is rushing to bid on new new Tupelov TU-204's which dublicate the Boeing 757 which was designed 25 years ago, and over 1000 produced. No, today the world wants new Airbuse A-380s, A-350s, and 787 Dreamliners, and Russia has nothing even on the drawing board to compete. And where did those people doing the designing military and civil go? They aren't idiots. Most of the best are now in the US with lavish retirement plans, and vacation homes in Aspen Colorado. So if the US can attract the best tallent, where does that leave Russia? In a firm number 2 position, at best, and even then just living off of it's past. The concept of Russia as a superpower (especially without Ukraine) is noting more than quaint nostalgia.

sigh stellar, you come on here posturing like you know something and yet you dont know how the US helped russia dismantle following the CTR agreement? I suggest you stop insulting ones intelligence when you really lack it.

here

www.nti.org...

for someone who 'knows' so much about russia i figured you would know this.

I hope you learned something, also prison planet is not good medicine, in the states it's considered rat poison.

Originally posted by StellarX

Then show up the flaws in my reasoning based on your own source material. Please contest the volume of data i have presented in the past when no one else did disprove the main tenants or anything at all. These vague slanderous attacks is fine if your going to at least provide sources as to why you disagree but in their absence i believe it's easy to expose who is ignorant of reality and who is not.

Stellar

I knew I wouldn't have long to wait before you started insulting me. That's just your standard operating procedure when someone (anyone) has a different view from yours. You claim to want a discussion? Well, you won't get one with your "my way or the highway" attitudes. Get over the soviet union, get over russia, but most of all get over yourself and your condescending attitude towards those that don't share your "insights".

The title of this thread includes the words "end all be all". We can only hope that this thread does turn out to be the last of a dying breed of threads longing for the by gone days of soviet "greatness" . Because otherwise we'll have to wait at least another generation before everyone that still dreams of the time when the old soviet union was powerful is finally gone.

Back on topic.

As to relative stengths and "super power" status, I think we shoould also look at space programs. If any have to ask why, the answer is that a space program drives the invention and development of new technologies. Some of these technologies will, of course, have military adaptations.

Now anyone who has studied history knows that the soviets where the first to launch a satellite and the first to put a man in space, and I'll give you the first to build a space station. But since then, maybe into the 80's, what have they done. Since the fall of the soviet union, what has russia done in space? Oh, I remember. The russians produced a couple of technologically inferior modules for the ISS that the U.S. had to send them money so they could be finished late. And their space shuttle - the buran today - sits unprotected from the weather in a pit. One look at the buran's familiar shape and it's obvious that the buran is not a "russian design". Let's now contrast that to the U.S. Once the U.S. was awkened to the space race challenge, it "zoomed" by the soviets back in the 60's and has never looked back with moon landings and mars landers and many other planetary probes. There's even one on the way to Pluto now.

So, my point is this. On the one hand you have a country (U.S.) that is leading the world and continuing to break new ground. While on the other hand, you have russia, who has basically given up even trying to compete, while their technologocal infrastructure rusts away and their technological people move away to other countries.

If and until the current situation in russia can be changed, then IMO these 'russia wannabe a super power again' threads are meaningless.


[edit on 1/13/2007 by centurion1211]

hah you're opening up a whole new can of worms there centurion!! I can almost bet people are going to challenge the US moon landing =). you made good points that I have never seen taken into consideration here on this forum.

Originally posted by ape
hah you're opening up a whole new can of worms there centurion!! I can almost bet people are going to challenge the US moon landing =). you made good points that I have never seen taken into consideration here on this forum.

Thanks. Well, I am just trying to help make this thread the "end all, be all" on this tedious subject that the OP promised.

I also added some things to the previous post.

[edit on 1/13/2007 by centurion1211]

Correct-amundo centurion. Great points.

Russia just isnt much of a threat to america these days. Some ppl need to get off there soap box and realise it. Russia has all the toys of a superpower. But lacks the funding to keep that 'superpower' status. Russia is a third world power dressed in a rotting cloth of what once was superpower clothing. Literally!.. Not only is russias space program pretty much irrelevant, but how about the russian navy? Its just one example of the many in which russia has declined rather quickly from superpower to thirdworld. Russias navy is something that has been neglected do to insufficient funding for many years (like much of russias military complex). With many of russias ships being too much of a hazard to take to the high seas. Thats one of the big problems with russia. The money just isnt there anymore.

Also many former USSR russian scientist fleed to the US after the collapse of the USSR. If that was the case dont you think that the americans would know just what the USSR had been working on in its inventory which was previously unbeknownst to the US government?

One look at the buran's familiar shape and it's obvious that the buran is not a "russian design".

Yet another sign of russian engineering at its best.... Or shall I say reverse engineering?!





[edit on 023131p://1801pm by semperfoo]

[edit on 023131p://1901pm by semperfoo]

Originally posted by centurion1211
But since then, maybe into the 80's, what have they done.
[edit on 1/13/2007 by centurion1211]

centurion1211,

Russia has made the most amount of launches into space from all countries of the world up to today and I have no idea why you're posting opposing information. I mean, Russia was the first to go into space and is on the leading position in space launches now. I just can't understand the logics of your thoughts, when you say they haven't achieved anything in space.

Buran isn't (and hasn't ever been) a holy grail of Russian space programme so your tiny bit of information which is irrelevant to this thread is therefore quite useless.

If you're proud of your shuttle programme, don't forget it wasn't as successful as you wanted it to be, 7 people died and many were put at great risk since then. I see nothing to be proud of, seriously.

Back to Buran.
Why does it look similar to the space shuttle ?..Good question. But what does it have to look like? Like a flying saucer?

You'd better study aerodynamics before even trying to compare COMPLETELY different spaceships.




[edit on 13-1-2007 by Leevi]