Texevoloution is flawed, if you would have checked my link you could see that the bombadier beetle throws the theory out the window quit easily.

I have heard of this beetle before, saw it on animal planet. It doesn't throw evolution out the window. In fact it completely supports the idea of those strange evolutionary incidences I mentioned. O and if evolution isn't right forsakenwayfarer then what pray tell is? There is little to no evidence that any major religion is true so if not them and not evolution then what?

I am sure this creature (leviathan) or similar ones have existed through out the corse of history however you cannot expect me or anyone else to believe that a creature that lived under water breathed fire. Think about it, that is just stupid. I believe I can safely say that no under water creature on this planet has ever had the ability to breath fire. If someone proves this statement wrong I would be more then happy to retract it.

Maybe leviathan is nothing more than the Loch Ness, or something in those terms.
Deep

Originally posted by cudailikeman
The infamous leviathan is a small hobby of mine

A leviathan is a leviathan not a dragon. it would probably look more like a serpent than anything else. there are many dipictions of a leviathan-even a mechanacal one!

Where can I find that mechanical description for the Leviathan? Did I mention Israel/Germany is testing out a new sub just outside my hometown these days. That one can indeed blow fire. It is designed to carry nukes. That's why I want it out of our waters.

As for the original quote that starts this thread. It's not the same word that is used but in KJV 1st Kings is used another word for coal, "retseph" which can mean "hot stone, glowing stone or coal, flame, firebolt, spark".

1Ki 19:6 And he looked, and, behold, there was a cake baken on the coals, and a cruse of water at his head. And he did eat and drink, and laid him down again.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by mikromarius

Originally posted by cudailikeman
The infamous leviathan is a small hobby of mine

A leviathan is a leviathan not a dragon. it would probably look more like a serpent than anything else. there are many dipictions of a leviathan-even a mechanacal one!

Where can I find that mechanical description for the Leviathan? Did I mention Israel/Germany is testing out a new sub just outside my hometown these days. That one can indeed blow fire. It is designed to carry nukes. That's why I want it out of our waters.

As for the original quote that starts this thread. It's not the same word that is used but in KJV 1st Kings is used another word for coal, "retseph" which can mean "hot stone, glowing stone or coal, flame, firebolt, spark".

1Ki 19:6 And he looked, and, behold, there was a cake baken on the coals, and a cruse of water at his head. And he did eat and drink, and laid him down again.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

it was for a popular anime, Big O, now showing on cartoon network.my avatar and signature are from Big O episode 17 was Leviathan. i have a link to that :
www.paradigm-city.com








[Edited on 12-12-2003 by cudailikeman]

[Edited on 12-12-2003 by cudailikeman]

Originally posted by riffraffalunas
Isaiah 13: 21-22 ( as follows)

21: But wild beasts of the desert shall dwell there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.
22: And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged

Here's an alternative translation. It's not too well worked over as for mirroring etc, but it serves i bit more insight into the subject:

21 But the beasts of the desert shall dwell there, and the houses shall be filled with owls. There shall the ostriges dwell and shagged trolls shall jump around. 22 Wild dogs shall howl in the forts and jackals in the castles where it where pleasure and joy used to rule. A time has been set for the city (ie. Babylon) and it's days shall not be prolonged.

The way I translate this passage, well the whole chapter, is that God will send satans against Babylon, which is Rome this time around, for her astrology is evil. The constellations she has drawn is like puke and frogs. The Heaven she has shaped, is shaped by humans, not God. She has made Heaven unclean. Welcomed dragons and cast out prophets. Therefore God shall judge her. For she doesn't tell the prophecy right. She has made the image of God, his holy Name, into the image of a beast. She has made the name of the beast into her god. Worse than the son of Seth's ways and his contemporaries, are her ways. For in the time of Enosh atleast they worshipped the Name of God. She has made sons from an unclean sun and called them fathers, though they're all childless. They say they are in Heaven. But hellfire is above her. Her heaven shall be shook, the Dragon shall be humbled. His power shall be overthrown. The Word of God is in my veins, the Law of God, my heart. She has broken my heart, and for that she must pay. The king of Babylon is Satan in disguise. The grapes she has sown are bitter. Her fruit is the wrath of God. With joy and gifts, music and choirs, poems and drama, she celebrates the death of prophets, blood of holy men and women is dripping from her mouth, her hands are full of shame. I didn't learn anything but sin from her. Who does she think she is? A son of God who carries sin? No! She is like a woman whose doors are open. For sin. If Justice walk therein and see their filth. How their images has lead the good to wickedness, the wicked to glory. Her Dominæ is the Dragon, not God. Ancient demons had their powers from her. Her festivals holds speeches for the beasts. On is her city. The Olymp, her mountain. The god of the castles is her refuge. She didn't cast out the old gods of her lovers. The claws on her lover's feet she made her servants, it's horns show all her whoredom. The horns uppon her prophet's head are princes of deceit: The princes of the king of Babylon: the prince of Javan (democracy) and the prince of Persia (UN) won't save her in the time of need. Neither will any of the spirits she worships. The wrath and woe they fear and fight has come from God above. The holy archs will not surrender. Faithful stars will shine.

She says she holds the keys of Heaven. But the keys don't fit no more. God has changed the lock. The promises she gave the beasts, her deals with the dead, are vain words made between fools. Poor men's riddles my God has solved.

Babylon: How could you give the bread to dogs and serpents to the children of the existing One? Mene, mene, tekel ufarsin! It's written on her wall. The king of Babylon is the father of sin. He sat himself in the chair of a god. Forgave sins without the authority. For Peter was never Pope. When he comes whom she will call the second, the prophecy will be reveiled. He will be cast down from the throne. For she has trusted violence, lies and pride. That which fills her basement with preacious stones and gold, her walls with images of gods and sinners, her throne with filth. She rise her prophets from the Earth, her lovers from the ocean. She gives them names of blasphemy. Holy names to wicked souls. Let the dead rest I tell you! You use the power of Ba'al to rise them. The power of the Satan. You force me to send messages back that kills my Salvation. Your heaven and your clock is wrong! Your calendar, a kiss of death! Your laws are all blasphemic. Your prophets are all like Bileam, him they payed to destroy Israel, your priests like Nadab and Abihu, who didn't follow the Law, like Korah, Datan, Abiram and On, unholy priests who were swallowed by the Earth, cast alive into Unseen State. You have become a curse uppon Israel, a woe to the children of God, a venomous plant in the Kingdom of Heaven. They who hope for God and keep his commandments must run for their lives. They who dream of rest, in the arms of Abraham. Who patiently awaits the victory. You have made it impossible for them to enter your houses, they must guard their children from your dogs. This was not my God's command. Yeshuah didn't say it. It was your own sin who dictated your wishes, your king who killed my God. Your human heart deceived my God. Your plans will find fulfillment, but not the way you think. Peter II will be humbled like Nebukadnezzar. Your own prophets admit it. The Word is the Tannakh. It prophecy the course of the world. Why do you call the evil good and the good evil? Why do you choose the wicked path? Mene, mene, tekel ufarsin!

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Yeah that is kinda what I was thinking. I believe that the myth of the dragon was simply exaggerations of some snake or sea creature. You know how it goes first it spits acid that burns, then it spits burning venom, then it shoots fire.... that sort of thing.

And for everyone looking in the bible for proof of dragons you will find none. The Bible may very well mention dragons however there is no proof to almost anything that happens in it, as far as I am concerned it is a fictional novel until proven otherwise. The only thing that can be confirmed is the world flood and even that is highly debated.

One thing I find interesting is that almost every ancient culture has stories of Dragons or Dragon like creatures.
Even the south americans had the winged snake Quetzalcoatl..... I think one thing to remember is the difference in peoples languages through time. Not to mention that these stories were most likely handed down from generation to generation. As far as no physical proof that they did nor did not exist, who is to say that we just ahve not found it yet? Everyday new discoveries are being made that make us rethink the way we see or believe things..

Another thought.. as far as the fire breathing part.. this would most likely come from glands correct? well in most cases all that is found are bones fleshy glands would be hard to detect...not to mention we would not be able to tell the true use for them..... thinking about the fact they would burn them selves... I looked at that beetle page... it says they can move their "sprayer" 720 degrees.... who is to say that the fire breathing didnt come from 2 or more glands that held enzymes that were benign by themself, but in combination were combustible? those glands could be then controlled to the point that the chemicals did not mix until well outof the body.

I wonder if the "spit" from spraying insects & reptiles is flammable ????? maybe one spit at a torch or fire in ancient times & they thought it was spitting fire....

ok ok Ill quit rambling now & save braincells for response..

Originally posted by HerExcellency

Well when you consider the entomylogy of dragon, it comes from the greek word for serpent.

Could they mean the spitting cobra, whose venom is caustic and causes blindness?

just a thought...

hrxll

And this, my friend might just be the answer. Remember how the cobra serpent was the pride of Egypt. It was uppon their crowns.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

I have heard from a rather learned individual that "breath that could set coals ablaze" indicates that the coals are (naturally) already hot and only need a little oxygen and fuel to flame up again. He theorized that the "dragon" mentioned in this passage could have easily had methane as well as oxygen in it's exhaled breath/belching and could therefore possibly cause a coal to relight if not for just a moment.

ALso. there is another passage in one of the scriptures that was not included in the bible about king nebucanezer having a dragon that he paraded through babylon.
If any cares i can find that passage and post it and what "book" it appeared in.




[Edited on 13-12-2003 by intelgurl]

bump. . . bump. . . bumper!

Originally posted by intelgurl
ALso. there is another passage in one of the scriptures that was not included in the bible about king nebucanezer having a dragon that he paraded through babylon.
If any cares i can find that passage and post it and what "book" it appeared in.

It's from a hidden passage in Daniel called "Bel and the Dragon" where Daniel busts the Bel priests eating the sacrifices secretly while they said it was Bel who ate it, and the story also explains how Daniel destroyed the dragon they had there which they looked uppon as God, by giving it poisonous food. This could indicate that this dragon was indeed a living animal, possibly a Nile croc or something, or who knows, maybe they had some kind of dinosaur there. The validity of this passage is questionable though. There are other additions to Daniel too. Among them is a story about a girl called Suzannah or something and also a song called the Song of the Three Children if I remember correctly which is an elaboration over the story about when Daniel and his friends were cast in the oven. If you like I can dig up a link to these stories, they are quite fun and interresting to read.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Somewhere in thr book of Job it speaks of animals very close to a stegasaur.

It says that there was a reptile with giants plates on it'sback and spikes on its tail. I don't know the actual phrasing though (and I'm no where near a Bible)

Originally posted by mikromarius
And. We also have the Komodo Varan or the Komodo Dragon, whose mouth is so full of bacteria that if you are bitten it's not venom that kills you but it's terrible mouth hygiene. I don't know if you can be killed by it's breath, but it's spit can indeed kill you.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Lets hope they dont learn how to "fly loogies!"

Simple, how did dragons die out if they were so large and fire for breath? Easy, the same way all the other dinosaurs did. Maybe they did not die at the point of impact, but an animal of that size would require such large amounts of food that when the dinosaurs did in fact die out, they had nothing left to eat. And i think it is very possible that dragons could breath flames. Many different substances when mixed together can cause an explosive reaction such as Sodium and water... Dragons may have had the ability of taking in normal salt water and seperate the Chlorine from the Sodium, and using both as some sort of defense. Chlorine gas kills on contact and could have been used as a close combat weapon, while the Sodium could have been used to catch patches of woods of fire to herd the animals together before an attack, and also a very lethal weapon of choice too. Who is to say that dragons left? We still have very large lizards (dragons) that are still around today, just land based and do not have the ability to breathe fire. All i can say is evolution.

[Edited on 30-12-2003 by Dravenn]

The original dragon (and all its species) was stripped of its limbs at the time of cursing the serpent in the Garden of Eden. The dragon is the serpent and the serpent is the dragon.

Genesis 3:14 "And God proceeded to say to the serpent. "Because you have done this thing, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the will beasts of the field. Upon your belly you will go and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life.""

Notice that male pythons have talons on their hind quarters.

Also. Revelation 12:9 "So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called devil and Satan..."

Here dragon and serpent are connected along with the fact that Satan was associated with them in the fall of mankind. He spoke through an animal of his choosing and it was the dragon/serpent.