Did Jesus Exist -- The Probing Mind

Originally posted by melatonin
Christians can bring forth their biblical YECism anytime they like, it is destroyed every time by real-world evidence without any reference to evolutionary theory.

Easy to say, impossible to back up

Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by melatonin
Christians can bring forth their biblical YECism anytime they like, it is destroyed every time by real-world evidence without any reference to evolutionary theory.

Easy to say, impossible to back up

Haha, yeah, until someone attempts it.

I've seen YEC eviscerated soooo many times. If you're ever bored and need something to do, open up a thread in the origins & creationsim forum. GreatTech did but ran for his life after the first post.

hmmm, plants before stars and animals, whales before land animals doesn't quite fit the real-world, that's just the very first chapter, heheh.

I used to play there quite a bit

I also had no idea what YEC was and falsely assumed it was some phrase for apologetics, which is why I said what I did. It wasn't until I looked it up that I realized it was Young Earth Creationism.

I've seen both sides of the evolutionary debate eviscerated in debate because they're both based hugely off of assumptions (macro, not micro evolution), and is why I'm still on the fence on the young/old earth thing.

However, here we are talking about Christ's existence, not evolution; I only used that as an analogy to explain how unbelievable it is that a debate can be held on a topic where those who saw and agreed with one side are not allowed to weigh in. That's not a debate, that's a lecture, and the lecturer doesn't want to deny ignorance, they want to control information and ideas.

Originally posted by junglejake
I used to play there quite a bit

I also had no idea what YEC was and falsely assumed it was some phrase for apologetics, which is why I said what I did. It wasn't until I looked it up that I realized it was Young Earth Creationism.

I've seen both sides of the evolutionary debate eviscerated in debate because they're both based hugely off of assumptions (macro, not micro evolution), and is why I'm still on the fence on the young/old earth thing.

However, here we are talking about Christ's existence, not evolution; I only used that as an analogy to explain how unbelievable it is that a debate can be held on a topic where those who saw and agreed with one side are not allowed to weigh in. That's not a debate, that's a lecture, and the lecturer doesn't want to deny ignorance, they want to control information and ideas.

Yeah, it's pretty dead in O&C at the moment, even Mattison and Rren dont' post anymore. Guess ID is dead as the proverbial dodo.

I generally keep out of these jesus as myth arguments as it makes no difference whether a person called Jesus, on which the NT was based, actually existed. It provides no support for his divinity apart from the circular argument. Joseph Smith existed but I don't accept he talked to angels and found golden plates about jesus in NA.

But I guess I should contribute something - although there are sources that mention christ and christians after the fact, none are contemporary and they may well just be describing christians and their beliefs. Some, especially Josephus, are suggested to be christian additions.

But, as I said, I won't argue the case as I care little

Originally posted by thehumbleone
You people who don't believe Jesus existed are like the people who say we never landed on the moon.

HUH!!!...What moon........landed???? Was that not a TV show back a few decades ago?

Sorry if I am repeating evidence already brought forth. But heres what I know

This is an article about James (Brother of Jesus) Burial Box being found.
James Burial Box Found

Many tax collectors wrote down his name in their charts. Zacchaeus, the chief tax collector of Jericho, had Jesus's name clearly written in his log. We have physical documents from the time that Zacchaeus was a living and breathing person. And last time I checked, Matthew (a disciple of Jesus) was a tax collector himself. Matthew wrote an entire book based around Jesus's life.

Pontius Pilate, an famous Roman Official of the time, was the man who gave the final order to crucify Jesus. In Pontius Pilate's journal and log book, Jesus is mentioned over a dozen times! Julius Caesar himself writes about Jesus and his widespread influence (Caesar and Jesus were both living at the same time). Any other first hand accounts? How about all twelve of his disciples. They touched Jesus, heard Jesus, and knew Jesus personally. Almost every one of them wrote an epistle or book about him, and these historical figures could not have been made up.

Jesus was crucified on a hill at Golgotha, near the west wall of Jerusalem. His body was most likely buried in a tomb nearby designated for people who were crucified for breaking Roman law.

Contrary to popular belief, Jesus was not born on Christmas. That's actually the birthday of various pagan gods. The bible tells us that Jesus was born while the sheperds were out tending to the flocks and that kings visited him on the day of his birth bearing gifts. It's highly unlikely that sheperds would be out with their sheep in the middle of winter, and that kings would travel hundreds of miles during the winter. I'm no expert, but Jesus was probably born in the springtime.

As to physical evidence, I challenge you to find a shred of physical evidence that clearly tells us of a specific person that lived over two thousand years ago. We do not even have the body of Julius Caesar, because the Roman custom was to burn corpses. The world back then is not like today. There were no birth certificates, death certificates, big houses and digital documents everywhere that have a track of what you buy and where you go. Compared to other people in the B.C. era, it is actually astonishing that we have so much evidence of Jesus's existence today.


[edit on 16-1-2007 by tylersch]

Originally posted by tylersch
Sorry if I am repeating evidence already brought forth. But heres what I know

This is an article about James (Brother of Jesus) Burial Box being found.
James Burial Box Found

tylersch, the burial box has been found to be a fraud (don't have a link but it involved the discovery that the text was laser-etched)

i remember that because i was using it as evidence for the existence of jesus back when i was a christian

Many tax collectors wrote down his name in their charts. Zacchaeus, the chief tax collector of Jericho, had Jesus's name clearly written in his log. We have physical documents from the time that Zacchaeus was a living and breathing person.

can i have a link to the evidence that backs up this claim?

And last time I checked, Matthew (a disciple of Jesus) was a tax collector himself. Matthew wrote an entire book based around Jesus's life.

there is debate on this
the gospel of matthew is seen as being written anywhere from 70 CE (at the earliest) up to 300 CE
those dates would mainly exclude matthew as the author

Pontius Pilate, an famous Roman Official of the time, was the man who gave the final order to crucify Jesus. In Pontius Pilate's journal and log book, Jesus is mentioned over a dozen times!

evidence?

Julius Caesar himself writes about Jesus and his widespread influence (Caesar and Jesus were both living at the same time).

no, only one JC lived at a time
Julius was stabbed repeatedly well before the (supposed) birth of jesus
augustus was "first citizen" (aka emperor) at the time of jesus' supposed birth
he's the one that ordered the census
he gained power after the death of julius
so, let's throw that point comletely out

Any other first hand accounts? How about all twelve of his disciples. They touched Jesus, heard Jesus, and knew Jesus personally. Almost every one of them wrote an epistle or book about him, and these historical figures could not have been made up.

um, citations?

Jesus was crucified on a hill at Golgotha, near the west wall of Jerusalem. His body was most likely buried in a tomb nearby designated for people who were crucified for breaking Roman law.

now you're just stating what is written in your religious text
not external evidence

Contrary to popular belief, Jesus was not born on Christmas.

well, the harsh palestinian winters would have prevented any pregnant woman from traveling...
quite obvious point there
but i'm still disputing that he was born

As to physical evidence, I challenge you to find a shred of physical evidence that clearly tells us of a specific person that lived over two thousand years ago.

augustus caeser's face etched on coins

We do not even have the body of Julius Caesar, because the Roman custom was to burn corpses.

yes, but we have contemporary accounts of said man

The world back then is not like today. There were no birth certificates, death certificates, big houses and digital documents everywhere that have a track of what you buy and where you go. Compared to other people in the B.C. era, it is actually astonishing that we have so much evidence of Jesus's existence today.

well, all the "evidence" you claim is just a group of statements concerning things that you claim exist

back said claims up with citations and links

augustus caeser's face etched on coins

That isn't evidence, for all I know, that could have been anybody face.

yes, but we have contemporary accounts of said man

Proof? Prove to me they are contemporary before I believe it.

Originally posted by thehumbleone

augustus caeser's face etched on coins

That isn't evidence, for all I know, that could have been anybody face.

well, they are labeled...
unless they somehow mislabeled them...

yes, but we have contemporary accounts of said man

Proof? Prove to me they are contemporary before I believe it.



listen, we aren't talking about julius caeser
we're talking about a person who supposedly existed and supposedly claimed to be god

well, they are labeled...
unless they somehow mislabeled them...

Still doesn't prove it was his face.

listen, we aren't talking about julius caeser
we're talking about a person who supposedly existed and supposedly claimed to be god

So you can't even prove to me they are contemporary, then I have no reason to prove anything to you.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by thehumbleone

augustus caeser's face etched on coins

That isn't evidence, for all I know, that could have been anybody face.

well, they are labeled...
unless they somehow mislabeled them...

yes, but we have contemporary accounts of said man

Proof? Prove to me they are contemporary before I believe it.

listen, we aren't talking about julius caeser
we're talking about a person who supposedly existed and supposedly claimed to be god

Just because theres a statue of Zeus and its labeled "ZEUS" does that mean he really existed?

You think we are trying to change the subject. We're not. Were just comparing the two situations to make a point that it is nearly impossible to prove that specific people lived thousands of years ago.

as for my earlier post I must apologize i posted some information a friend sent to me without checking its validity. I will work on checking them out.
Could you please list the contempory accounts of Julius Caesar?

Since you want to leave the NT out of this...

Historian Tacitus Describes Jesus

Historian Josephus Describes Jesus

[edit on 16-1-2007 by tylersch]

Just because theres a statue of Zeus and its labeled "ZEUS" does that mean he really existed?

You think we are trying to change the subject. We're not. Were just comparing the two situations to make a point that it is nearly impossible to prove that specific people lived thousands of years ago.

as for my earlier post I must apologize i posted some information a friend sent to me without checking its validity. I will work on checking them out.
Could you please list the contempory accounts of Julius Caesar?



[edit on 16-1-2007 by tylersch]

well said tylersch, I couldn't have said it better myself.

You have voted tylersch for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

ok

julius caesar
mentioned in the speeches of cicero (his political rival)
which were dated to be during the proposed lifetime of caesar

You can even buy a copy of them on Amazon

now, back up your claims on the evidence for the existence of jesus
i found a contemporary account of JCaesar, and he died 44ish years before the supposed birth of jesus (i say ish because some people disagree on the exact year)

1 more thing
tacitus and josephus were born after the supposed death of jesus....
not contemporary

[edit on 1/16/07 by madnessinmysoul]

Look, this is on Amazon, does it prove That what he claimed is real?

This is "real"

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Look, this is on Amazon, does it prove That what he claimed is real?

This is "real"

well, i brought up a republishing of antique papers...
speeches that are confirmed to have been written during the life of Julius Caesar and confirmed to have been written by his political rival whose existence is just as well documented

and you bring up a deflective answer...

:bnghd::bnghd::bnghd::bnghd::bnghd::bnghd::bnghd::bnghd:

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Look, this is on Amazon, does it prove That what he claimed is real?

This is "real"

well, i brought up a republishing of antique papers...
speeches that are confirmed to have been written during the life of Julius Caesar and confirmed to have been written by his political rival whose existence is just as well documented

and you bring up a deflective answer...

:bnghd::bnghd::bnghd::bnghd::bnghd::bnghd::bnghd::bnghd:

Wait a sec, who confirmed it was written during his life?

How do they know, they DID NOT live 2000+ years ago, this just proves they're speculating.

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Wait a sec, who confirmed it was written during his life?

How do they know, they DID NOT live 2000+ years ago, this just proves they're speculating.

well, we do have radiocarbon dating
and we have dialectical evidence


how do you know "jesus" existed? you werent there

how do you know "god" exists?you werent in "eden"

[edit on 1/16/07 by madnessinmysoul]

With Julius Caesar we have dozens of documents from numerous sources that show a great deal of internal consistency, many are contemporary, they do add weight to his existence. We have documents from Caesar himself, he talks about his military campaigns, we have writings from his son. We have busts of caesar and coins with his name.

To compare the historical evidence for Jesus and Caesar is laughable, although common. Jesus has a few questionable references and others referring to christians. None are contemporary to his life.

If you take the line that no historical evidence is reliable, no discussion to have really.

But still, it doesn't matter if someone called 'jesus' existed in the right period, it adds nothing to his divinity. In fact, I'm sure that quite a few jesus's existed in those days.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Wait a sec, who confirmed it was written during his life?

How do they know, they DID NOT live 2000+ years ago, this just proves they're speculating.

well, we do have radiocarbon dating
and we have dialectical evidence


how do you know jesus existed? you werent there

how do you know god exists?you werent in eden

Give me a break, you're gonna trust radiocarbon dating?

I saw scientist do a test on an orange peel that had just been peeled off, and it dated like to 5000 years ago or something like that.

Don't ask me to show you, cause I saw it on TV.

You have still not told me who "they" is, the people who "confirmed" your supposed evidence.

You're right I can never prove Jesus or God exist 100%, but logic points in the direction that they do, just as you might say logic points to Julius Caeser existing.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Look, this is on Amazon, does it prove That what he claimed is real?

This is "real"

well, i brought up a republishing of antique papers...
speeches that are confirmed to have been written during the life of Julius Caesar and confirmed to have been written by his political rival whose existence is just as well documented

and you bring up a deflective answer...

:bnghd::bnghd::bnghd::bnghd::bnghd::bnghd::bnghd::bnghd:

Confirmed by who? Give evidence/sources/links

well, i brought up a republishing of antique papers...

Why does that sound familiar? *cough* The Bible */cough*

Have you ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls?




[edit on 16-1-2007 by tylersch]