Did Jesus Exist -- The Probing Mind

Originally posted by tylersch
Now your REALLY just making stuff up.
You are missing my point, and STILL avoiding all of my previous questions.

My point was that people are taking the birth of Bhudda and warping it to sound like Jesus' birth.
What I'm saying is that they are very different.

Nah, but I wasn't comparing remember. I was just stating that I thought the buddha myth was really a case of immaculate conception. I've no real gripe with you, I'm just throwing a few opinions here and there (like the post about the history - I accept a historical aspect to Jesus).

Then you went on about how giving birth from a woman's side was biologically unlikely - I completely agree - so I just applied a bit of real-world analysis to the mary myth - that is, it is just as unlikely that a spook impregnated mary. Both use a bit of magic, neither are as likely as the other, in my opinion.

edit: yah, get the point about immaculate conception, guess I need to scrub up on catholic dogma - I guess there needs to be a term for conception by some supernatural agent - how about 'spookly conception' - suppose that makes the point...

I read on wiki that even catholics get this wrong, and so they call it the 'immaculate misconception', heheh.

[edit on 25-1-2007 by melatonin]

it's not like jesus is the only mythic character to have been born without a sexual conception

typically the "pagan" gods of the osiris-dionysus tradition are born of virgins and experience a death a rebirth

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
it's not like jesus is the only mythic character to have been born without a sexual conception

typically the "pagan" gods of the osiris-dionysus tradition are born of virgins and experience a death a rebirth

How many times are you guys going to dodge my questions?
How many times are just going to post something with no external evidence?

Now I feel like i'm talking to a brick wall.

Originally posted by tylersch
How many times are you guys going to dodge my questions?

i'm not dodging any of your questions
i must not be seeing them
please restate them

How many times are just going to post something with no external evidence?

here's some evidence for the similarities between "jesus" and dionysus

It is possible that Dionysian mythology would later find its way into Christianity. There are many parallels between Dionysus and Jesus; both were said to have been born from a virgin mother, a mortal woman, but fathered by the king of heaven, to have returned from the dead, to have transformed water into wine, and to have been liberator of mankind.

source

edit: spelling

[edit on 1/25/07 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by tylersch
How many times are you guys going to dodge my questions?

i'm not dodging any of your questions
i must not be seeing them
please restate them

How many times are just going to post something with no external evidence?

here's some evidence for the similarities between "jesus" and dionysus

It is possible that Dionysian mythology would later find its way into Christianity. There are many parallels between Dionysus and Jesus; both were said to have been born from a virgin mother, a mortal woman, but fathered by the king of heaven, to have returned from the dead, to have transformed water into wine, and to have been liberator of mankind.

source

edit: spelling

[edit on 1/25/07 by madnessinmysoul]

That isn't evidence at all. Thats a paragraph copied and pasted from a website which ALSO has no literary backup.

Here is a website (with literary backup) I think you should read about the "similarities" between Jesus and pagan gods


As for the questions you missed I will repost them again.

[edit on 26-1-2007 by tylersch]

If you think Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John didn't write the Gospels, who did?

I know you replied with this...

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by tylersch
Then who wrote the Gospels?

some people who heard the preachings of the "evangelists" matthew, mark, luke, and john and decided to write them down and give the messangers credit

that's what the evidence points towards
all evidence for the gospels points towards authorship no earlier than 70 CE (i'm pretty sure that would be the gospel of mark)

1. I asked what that "evidence" was and you never answered me.

2. How can you prove that the "authorship [was] no earlier than 70 CE ?

and you CANT say they were too "old" to be alive then. Many of those historians, that whoever listed earlier, lived up to about 95 years old, most were around 70.



[edit on 26-1-2007 by tylersch]

junglejake posted alot of great information of historical people writing about Jesus, and you said this...

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
JJ, hold that thought
i'm going to come up with a long, thoughtful response to your post, because i honestly respect that you are actually talking about the article

but, right now with the hectics of the holiday season, i'm pressed for time and cannot come up with a long argument

I have yet to see you follow through.
If you'd like to follow through, his main posts are on Pg.2

(Immediately after junglejake's posts everyone started talking about YECism, comparison to caesar and zeus, radiocarbon dating, and then the mindless insults began)

Originally posted by kinglizard

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
so, why hasn't anyone adressed what i've directly quoted from the article?

OK here is your quote:

The notion that the four "gospels that made the cut" to be included in the official New Testament were written by men named Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John does not go back to early Christian times. The titles "According to Matthew," etc., were not added until late in the second century. Thus, although Papias ca. 140 CE ('Common Era') knows all the gospels but has only heard of Matthew and Mark, Justin Martyr (ca. 150 CE) knows of none of the four supposed authors. It is only in 180 CE, with Irenæus of Lyons, that we learn who wrote the four "canonical" gospels and discover that there are exactly four of them because there are four quarters of the earth and four universal winds. Thus, unless one supposes the argument of Irenæus to be other than ridiculous, we come to the conclusion that the gospels are of unknown origin and authorship, and there is no good reason to suppose they are eye-witness accounts of a man named Jesus of Nazareth. At a minimum, this forces us to examine the gospels to see if their contents are even compatible with the notion that they were written by eye-witnesses. We cannot even assume that each of the gospels had but one author or redactor.

Please provide supporting evidence for all of THEIR claims in this one paragraph and every paragraph that you are asking others to do the same. Not just people that say the same thing but scientific evidence that supports time frames, dates, people, places and anything els that is mentioned. This is your exercise so I would expect that you would be willing to do the same thing you are asking other people to do. I mean to refute any of this stuff a person would need to do the same right?

Did you do any of this?

Originally posted by kokoro
Jewish literature mentions hundreds of "messiah claims" throughout history and in his supposed time this was fairly common for someone to claim to be the messiah.

I asked to see these "hundreds of "messiah claims"" I have yet to see ONE.

My apologies tylersch, i did not see your post. Here is where I got the external source info I quoted.

Jesus Mythos

What I am asking is.. where did THEY get this information?
They site NO external links or references.

I'm guessing maybe they got the info from another anti-jesus website?
I won't come to that conclusion for now.

But my question still stands.

I have yet to get an answer



[edit on 26-1-2007 by tylersch]

Originally posted by tylersch

honestly, christianity shares many things with pagan myths
jesus shares 19 out of 22 of the core characteristics of oedipus, a pagan myth

Where are you getting this from?
I just read a whole article about "oedipus" It had no similarities to Jesus at all. Did I read about the wrong "oedipus"?

I'm still waiting...

Originally posted by tylersch

Besides why would these Pagan and Jewish people care anyways? "oh, just another guy claiming to be the messiah...I'm not going to waste my ink on such things!" - I'm just guessing, but you never know.

One person you posted was a Geographer - Why would a geographer write about Jesus?

Originally posted by tylersch

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
tylersch, that's a good list you came up with
however
you point out only 2 things about those people
1: when they lived
2: that they wrote about "jesus"

however, you give no explaination as to WHAT they wrote about "jesus" and what context it was in

those points are just as important as their lifetime

I did, look above your post there's a little link. But here it is again.
link to what they wrote about jesus and what context it was in.

(Scroll about 3/4 of the way down, it has links to the people that I listed)

I have a feeling you haven't even bothered reading this one. I hope that you would, since it answers your question pretty well.

Ive taken on the Mithras myth, the Bhudda myth, and practically disproved them to have a connection with the Biblical Jesus.

Here is a link to some more..
Jesus/Pagan?

Okay, i've re-posted most of the questions we've asked that you missed.
Please start from the first one. Please don't pick the easiest one and forget about the others.

I look forward to you responses.

Originally posted by tylersch
Ive taken on the Mithras myth, the Bhudda myth, and practically disproved them to have a connection with the Biblical Jesus.

I like the way you call the other two myths but the virgin born, spookly conception, magic performing, living zombie, heaven-bound jesus as not

I don't think anyone can prove a connection between pagan myths and the jesus myths, just that they had some basic similarities. I guess it's like how new music can be influenced by previous bands but not be exactly the same.

Like for the Buddha myth, the main comparison I see is that of a supernatural agent producing a special individual with a female.

One who was supposedly being called a virgin birth in Greek stories is Perseus, the early christian apologist Justin Martyr noted the comparison...

And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept of Ferseus. And in that we say that He made whole the lame, the paralytic, and those born blind, we seem to say what is very similar to the deeds said to have been done by AEsculapius.

linky 1

Justin also talked about how these stories were created by the devil before Jesus' birth to deceive people in his dialogue with Trypho. He also mentions Bacchus and claims of similarity (LXIX, LXX).

linky 2

So, comparison between the Jesus myth and other myths were common even in the second century. It's nothing new.

Were there influences? I've no idea

[edit on 26-1-2007 by melatonin]

Mel and madness, you two obviously can't prove tylersch wrong, just admit it, you guys don't know how to answer his questions.

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Mel and madness, you two obviously can't prove tylersch wrong, just admit it, you guys don't know how to answer his questions.

You're still having difficulty actually reading my words, eh humble?

I've just said that people will find it hard to prove a connection. But claims of similarities were noticed to be around even by early christians.

I'm not trying to prove him wrong. I've actually indirectly supported him twice.

sorry, I have a hard time understanding Brits.

Originally posted by melatonin

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Mel and madness, you two obviously can't prove tylersch wrong, just admit it, you guys don't know how to answer his questions.

You're still having difficulty actually reading my words, eh humble?

I've just said that people will find it hard to prove a connection. But claims of similarities were noticed to be around even by early christians.

I'm not trying to prove him wrong. I've actually indirectly supported him twice.

Mel, I have noticed that you have indirectly supported me, I appreciate it.
However, I think thehumbleone is reading your words just fine.
In your last post you managed to not answer ANY of my questions that I posted AGAIN.

As to what you said... For all I care, Bhudda, Mithras, Oedipus were all real. I could care less if their stories are fiction or not. I'm just saying get their stories RIGHT.

All I am trying to PROVE is that people are twisting stories to the point where they make it LOOK like Jesus is just copying other people/gods.

All my questions still stand

[edit on 26-1-2007 by tylersch]

[edit on 26-1-2007 by tylersch]

Originally posted by tylersch
However, I think thehumbleone is reading your words just fine.
Your last post you managed to not answer ANY of my questions that I posted AGAIN.

I don't think any of your questions are actually directed at me, if they were I'd answer them...

I just noted that an early christian apologist wrote about how people in the early second century were making comparisons of the Jesus myth with their own.

I provided evidence which seems to be your biggest bugbear...

Sheesh, people are so cranky.