Why Such Hate?

I have been posting here at ATS,BTS and PTS for quite some time now. While I certainly do enjoy my visits here, there are some things that should be addressed.

What I have noticed, particularly here in the FTS forum, is a subtle intolerance for ideas that are different from accepted "norms." While I admit that this is not something that is always obvious, though it's becoming more so, it is quite obvious for those who are perceptive enough to see it.

What I would like to know is why this is indeed the case. Now, we all know that there has been somewhat of an intolerance to any ideology that is Christian; however, what gets me is that people who are not considered mainstream is starting to receive the flak as well. I am wondering if any one can "enlighten" me as to why this may be the case. I am interested in hearing the answers.

I have stated from the beginning that my ideology does not really fit very well with any mainstream ideology. This is mostly because I have sit and came to my own conclusions rather than depending on others to tell me what to believe. I am willing to share some of my ideas with all, but not at the cost of being verbally assaulted every other time I post something. That's non sensical. If you choose not to believe what I do, that is fine. However, there is no need to degrade my personal beliefs or try to convert, which will never happen, me to what you personally believe.

Your beliefs are your choice. I can accept that even though I may or may not agree with your belief. However, what I have noticed, particularly here at FTS, is not only an unacceptance of beliefs that are different, but an abhorrence to them. I am not the only victim of this, but one of the most obvious cases in point.

It's interesting how some who post here think that if somone doesn't believe just like he/she does, then that other person must be wrong. Who says? I mean, who am I or anyone else to say that I have the truth and if you don't agree then you must be wrong? I try not to do that, but many posters do that without fail.

I just wish that people were more accepting of others' views. However,I suppose that considering we live in a world where everyone wants to be right all of the time, it is far too much to ask.

[edit on 17-12-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 17-12-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
I mean, who am I or anyone else to say that I have the truth

I have no clue. Due to the fact that I agree with you on this, how about changing your name to SpeakerofCrock.

You get it from both sides don't you. The Christians knows your views don't agree with the word and steps to the plate against you. The unbeliever wants to attack anything that appears Christian without realizing you point of view.

Kind of a bugger isn't it.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
I have been posting here at ATS,BTS and PTS for quite some time now. While I certainly do enjoy my visits here, there are some things that should be addressed.

What I have noticed, particularly here in the FTS forum, is a subtle intolerance for ideas that are different from accepted "norms." While I admit that this is not something that is always obvious, though it's becoming more so, it is quite obvious for those who are perceptive enough to see it.

What I would like to know is why this is indeed the case. Now, we all know that there has been somewhat of an intolerance to any ideology that is Christian; however, what gets me is that people who are not considered mainstream is starting to receive the flak as well. I am wondering if any one can "enlighten" me as to why this may be the case. I am interested in hearing the answers.

LOL you should try being an atheist then!!!

I have stated from the beginning that my ideology does not really fit very well with any mainstream ideology. This is mostly because I have sit and came to my own conclusions rather than depending on others to tell me what to believe. I am willing to share some of my ideas with all, but not at the cost of being verbally assaulted every other time I post something. That's non sensical. If you choose not to believe what I do, that is fine. However, there is no need to degrade my personal beliefs or try to convert, which will never happen, me to what you personally believe.

You know , I totally agree with this statement!!!

Your beliefs are your choice. I can accept that even though I may or may not agree with your belief. However, what I have noticed, particularly here at FTS, is not only an unacceptance of beliefs that are different, but an abhorrence to them. I am not the only victim of this, but one of the most obvious cases in point.

As I have said, try the atheistic view and see the hate flow.

I just wish that people were more accepting of others' views. However,I suppose that considering we live in a world where everyone wants to be right all of the time, it is far too much to ask.

[edit on 17-12-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 17-12-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Chance WOULD be a fine thing eh?



G

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
You get it from both sides don't you. The Christians knows your views don't agree with the word and steps to the plate against you. The unbeliever wants to attack anything that appears Christian without realizing you point of view.

as a person that most likely falls into the unbeliever category, i'd say that i never attack speaker for his views

i actually compliment him for being somewhat rational in his beliefs

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
You get it from both sides don't you.

This may be the only time I agree with you SM! Mark the calendar!

Anyway, Speakerof Truth, I totally agree with you here. And you probably do have it worse than most because you say you're a Christian, but don't buy the 'conventional' Christian belief system in total, so you not only get flack from the atheists/agnostics, but also from the conventional Christians who want you to be more like them in your beliefs...

I'm sorry you get it from both sides. At lease those on one side or another (if you consider atheists/agnostics to be one side and conventional Christians on the other) have the support and commiseration of their cohorts.

I hope you know that nothing I've ever said to you has been in hatred. I totally respect your right to have and express your beliefs, whatever they are and I never would say or think that you were wrong.

I think what I need to do (and maybe you might want to do this too) is stop caring what other people think about my beliefs AND what they think about me. I need to stop caring that they say I'm wrong. If they feel sorry for me that I don't know the truth or if they get mad at me because I post in the FST forum or if they get frustrated because I don't agree with them or if they think they're better than me because they know the truth and I don't ... I just have to let it be.

It's something to work toward at least. Because if there's one thing I know, it's that I can't change or control other people or what they say and think about me. And as long as I'm going to share myself and my beliefs with other people, there are going to be those who disagree and make judgments about me and think they're right and I'm wrong. And that's OK because it doesn't reflect on ME, it reflects on THEM.

You're right about people's desire to be right. Imagine a thread where everyone voiced their religious and spiritual beliefs and NOT ONE person questioned anyone else! That would never happen here. My theory is that too many people are insecure about what they believe and whether they're 'right' or not. The more people who agree on one thing, the more they can feel 'right' and sure that they've latched onto the 'right' one.

People who don't really 'fit' into either category mentioned before, are the brave ones. They're the ones who have decided what to believe based on what comes from within, not without. They don't base their beliefs on what someone tells them to believe or something they read, but what they themselves generate as their beliefs. It's a tough place to be, but I support you!

I have no clue. Due to the fact that I agree with you on this, how about changing your name to SpeakerofCrock.

After I respond to this, I will promptly place you back on my ignore list.. My statement not only applied to myself but everyone,Sun. Therefore, don't get the idea that I meant anyone other than me "speaks the truth" either,certainly not you,Sun. Thank ya. Thank ya.

as a person that most likely falls into the unbeliever category, i'd say that i never attack speaker for his views

i actually compliment him for being somewhat rational in his beliefs

I certainly appreciate that, madness. I try and be as realistic as possible. Some of my views and ideas would probably be viewed by most as bizarre,but when one really examines in what context I espouse them,not so much.

I don't want this to turn into a "let's pity poor,Speaker," thread. I actually was just trying to use myself as an example. Lord knows that there are both Christians and Atheist alike that get lambasted much more than I do.

Anyway, Speakerof Truth, I totally agree with you here. And you probably do have it worse than most because you say you're a Christian, but don't buy the 'conventional' Christian belief system in total, so you not only get flack from the atheists/agnostics, but also from the conventional Christians who want you to be more like them in your beliefs...

True, Benevolent. You actually got to the heart of my purpose of even posting this. I am not an indoctrinated Christian and those who would otherwise be on a freakin "rah rah" cheering squad abhor me because of it. Since I don't believe what they believe,word for word, they conider me worse, in a sense, than a person who has no semblance of belief similar to their own. They have this irrational idea that, "Well, if you don't believe exactly as I do, then you must not be correct." Of course, Christian history is rife with this kind of descrimination, so perhaps we should not be surprised.

I think what I need to do (and maybe you might want to do this too) is stop caring what other people think about my beliefs AND what they think about me. I need to stop caring that they say I'm wrong. If they feel sorry for me that I don't know the truth or if they get mad at me because I post in the FST forum or if they get frustrated because I don't agree with them or if they think they're better than me because they know the truth and I don't

... I just have to let it be.

Benevolent, well I have certainly tried to do that. However, it has always baffled me as to why someone ele should really concern themselves with what I, or anyone else believes. Like I have said, believe as you wish. I really culdn't care less whether someone views my opinions correct or not. However, whenever I or anyone else comes under attack simply for what he/she may believe, that is when I have to intercede.

You're right about people's desire to be right. Imagine a thread where everyone voiced their religious and spiritual beliefs and NOT ONE person questioned anyone else! That would never happen here. My theory is that too many people are insecure about what they believe and whether they're 'right' or not. The more people who agree on one thing, the more they can feel 'right' and sure that they've latched onto the 'right' one.

You are absolutely right,Benevolent!! My question to anyone who is insecure about their personal beliefs is rather simple.If you are so insecure about your own beliefs that you have to attack anothers, because the other's opinion threatens yours, then why do you believe it? :shk:

People who don't really 'fit' into either category mentioned before, are the brave ones. They're the ones who have decided what to believe based on what comes from within, not without. They don't base their beliefs on what someone tells them to believe or something they read, but what they themselves generate as their beliefs. It's a tough place to be, but I support you!

Benevolent,I certainly appreciate both you and Madness' "votes of confidence." One thing that I can say about you Benevolent, you and I may not always agree, but at least we do have enough respect for one another to discuss rather than to devolve into a spitting contest.

[edit on 17-12-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 17-12-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 17-12-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

It's interesting how some who post here think that if somone doesn't believe just like he/she does, then that other person must be wrong. Who says? I mean, who am I or anyone else to say that I have the truth and if you don't agree then you must be wrong? I try not to do that, but many posters do that without fail.

Err, I don't know if I'm on your ignore list or not, but, are you not claiming to have the Truth when you say what you believe is right?

Originally posted by thehumbleone
are you not claiming to have the Truth when you say what you believe is right?

Where did SOT claim that what s/he believes is right?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by thehumbleone
are you not claiming to have the Truth when you say what you believe is right?

Where did SOT claim that what s/he believes is right?

Well, if it's what he believes, then he must think there is something right about it in order to believe it.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Where did SOT claim that what s/he believes is right?

Benevolent, we all know I have never made such a claim. Watch and see what I tell you though, someone will bring up my moniker and try to say that I imply that everything I say is the truth. :shk: Watch and see what I tell you.

[edit on 18-12-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Well, if it's what he believes, then he must think there is something right about it in order to believe it.

"Humble," I have had you on ignore and there you shall return. I just thought I'd respect you enough to respond to your post on this thread.
To a degree, yeah, that is true. However, there is a big diference between believing that your ideas are true, and demanding that others believe just as you do.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Well, if it's what he believes, then he must think there is something right about it in order to believe it.

"Humble," I have had you on ignore and there you shall return. I just thought I'd respect you enough to respond to your post on this thread.
To a degree, yeah, that is true. However, there is a big diference between believing that your ideas are true, and demanding that others believe just as you do.

WHY SUCH HATE?????????? SpeakerofCrock

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
SpeakerofCrock

You know, I don't know or care what causes you to resort to such childish name-twisting, but it really has no reflection whatsoever on SOT. It only shows your maturity level... I'm not on anyone's 'side' here, but that's just lame.

Now, back to the subject of the thread. Something else occurred to me. The question is "Why Such Hate"? I wonder if it's really hatred we're seeing at times or maybe just defensiveness. I've noticed many people (mostly those involved in organized religion) are hesitant to say, "I believe" blah, blah, blah... They'd rather say, "This is the TRUTH" or "This is the way it is"...

Because the position of "I believe" leaves open the possibility that I may be wrong. For most Christians to say "I believe" instead of "I KNOW" might feel to them like a weakened position. A threat... They don't like acknowledging that they might be wrong.

As a non-Christian, I am told many times that my belief (or lack thereof) in God or Christianity isn't required or necessary for the facts or Truth to to be what they are. Christians, many times, speak as though we all have our silly little "beliefs" but that THEIR beliefs are Facts or Truth... And therefore the possibility of them being wrong doesn't exist.

For example, I have been told that God loves me. When I counter with "I'm not sure I believe in God", I'm told that my belief isn't necessary. God still loves me. The Fact remains. My belief is irrelevant. So regardless what I believe, I'm told that my beliefs are insignificant, because the Christian has the Truth. This isn't just something the Christian believes (implying they could be wrong), it's the Truth.

Being told that my beliefs matter less than someone else's or that someone's beliefs are more important or right than mine has a tendency to motivate me to stand up for my beliefs and explain that their beliefs are just that. Beliefs, not necessarily Truth. Because no one can know the Truth. I can freely admit that, but many who are involved in organized religion (and some who aren't) can't admit that they might not KNOW the Truth.

"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." -Albert Einstein

Just some thoughts...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I've noticed many people (mostly those involved in organized religion) are hesitant to say, "I believe" blah, blah, blah... They'd rather say, "This is the TRUTH" or "This is the way it is"...

Because the position of "I believe" leaves open the possibility that I may be wrong. For most Christians to say "I believe" instead of "I KNOW" might feel to them like a weakened position. A threat... They don't like acknowledging that they might be wrong.

I don't see it as posturing.

Say I live on 2094 Main Street.

Now if you asked me if my home is on 2094 Main Street I wouldn't say "I believe" my home is on 2094 Main Street, I would say "I Know" my home is on 2094 Main Street.

That's something you can prove. You can show PROOF that you do and everyone in the world would agree that you live on 2094 Main Street.

It's quite different when a person says that there are pink bunnies living on Mars. There is no proof. Even if they've seen them through a microscope, even if they say they've read about them and you can read about them, too, until they can show other people that they, too, can see them through a microscope, it's just a belief.

And even if 50% of the people in the world agree that pink bunnies live on Mars, it's still a belief, not necessarily a fact. Not until there's proof.

And the funny thing is, there MIGHT be pink bunnies living on Mars, but until it's proven, it's still just a belief.

I telling you why WE say "I know", not why YOU need to believe us.

I know why you say "I know"

I'm just explaining why we feel discounted when you do.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I know why you say "I know"

Ok stop it. Are you trying to confuse me? lol

Anyway you don't "know" because you were saying we used that term as leverage or to establish a position of power:

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Because the position of "I believe" leaves open the possibility that I may be wrong. For most Christians to say "I believe" instead of "I KNOW" might feel to them like a weakened position. A threat... They don't like acknowledging that they might be wrong.

Not the case, as I explained above.

Originally posted by kinglizard
Anyway you don't "know" because you were saying we used that term as leverage or to establish a position of power:

I didn't. That's your interpretation of what I said. I didn't mention leverage or power...

My position is in trying to explain the defensiveness you may encounter sometimes when talking with people of different beliefs than yours. When you tell them that it doesn't matter what they believe because what you believe is the Truth, you can expect a little defensiveness.

Perhaps you should read over my post again to get the gist of what it's about.

Funny how deep this can get, isn't it? I'm sure you all know there's an entire discipline known as epistemology that concerns itself with the nature of knowledge vs. belief.

I've said this before and I'm sure I'll say it again: I'm all about the "maybe". Nothing's 100% sure, but there are degrees of certainty. There's no guarantee I'll make it to work every day without being killed, but I'm sure enough I won't to bet my life on it.

originally posted by benevolent Heretic
And the funny thing is, there MIGHT be pink bunnies living on Mars, but until it's proven, it's still just a belief.

Here's one place we have a slight disagreement. If I'd been to Mars and seen the bunnies, it's proven, to me. But if I had no way to bring back proof to you, you'd say it was a belief.

My mother passed away a couple of years ago. I'm quite sure she loved me. That's a factual truth, to me. But I can't prove it to you, so my factual truth in this case is a belief from your perspective.

And therein lies a major difficulty with this (and many other) topic(s) - Just because one person has a factual truth verified by their own personal experience doesn't make it a universally accepted truth that everyone else can or will accept as fact.