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Believer Syndrome.

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posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 07:48 PM
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Originally posted by Gunney
Esoteric Teacher, here's a quote for you: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan


Here is a quote from me:
"Extraordinary evidence requires an extaordinary mind capable of integrating said extraordinary evidence"

and since the author of this thread has already come to the conclusion that it is a "FACT no evidence exists", it seems apparent to me that from their perspective there is no evidence, extraordinary or otherwise.



Now, I'm willing to contemplate wild ideas, I AM on this forum after all. I'm hearing what you are saying, BUT you don't seem to understand it takes more than simple words before I BELIEVE something.


And what have you chosen to believe without "simple words"?

What is it that you accept as FACT & TRUTH without words that instigated you accepting what you already believe?

Haven't you already chosen to believe something because of the words of others, or is what you believe totally unrelated to the words you have already heard?

People keep "requiring" proof, while so easily disregarding and/or disbelieving the proof that is already all around them.




posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 07:54 PM
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He had not denied the existence of aliens or ufos, only that they have a global conspiracy. And I believe the only reason your not giving any facts is because you know that your story is so weak that anyone can poke holes in it in a matter of seconds. So maybe if your up to it, you should just answer his questions and stop avoiding the question.

Also to what you said before, there are multiple ways to learn, he doesn't have to associate everything with something he already knows. If I told you that the smell of a skunk is made of chemical A and chemical B, and you don't know what they are, or even what a skunk is, but I show you a picture and explain what the chemcials do and how they react, you can still comprehend this fact. So please stop avoiding the question.



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by wswbkbroiler
So please stop avoiding the question.


What question have i avoided?



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 08:10 PM
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OK. I'll put it so you can understand it. Answer the previously stated questions.

1. What is your proof of their being an global alien conpsiracy?

2. What is their main objective?

3. What do they look like?

Only answer or say that there is no proof.

Also I would like to point out that just because someone famous thinks ufos doesn't mean s/he believes in an global alien conspiracy.

Life on other planets .... possible. We found bacteria on mars.

That life is controlling everything we do ................................... ?



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 08:37 PM
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Originally posted by wswbkbroiler
OK. I'll put it so you can understand it. Answer the previously stated questions.


There were not previously stated questions.
Source/Link:
encarta.msn.com...


QUESTION:
Definition:
1. written or spoken inquiry: a request for information or for a reply, which ends with a question mark if written or on a rising intonation if spoken


No Question mark, then by the very definition, there was no question.



1. What is your proof of their being an global alien conpsiracy?

Language. Human behavior. History. Truth.



2. What is their main objective?

Why am i expected to speak for the lifeforms of every other race on every other planet? Where is it i claim to have such authority to do so? Not even GOD (if you believe in God) claims to have that authority. hence the term "Free Will". I don't claim to speak for all life everywhere. But i strongly suspect objectives differ. Individual races do not always have the same objectives. This should be self-evident in humans, since humans don't seem to agree on earth's objectives. Yet, you request a human to define the objectives for every other race throughout all creation, when people can't efficiently agree upon what earth's objectives are. Their objectives are more than likely dependant upon what it is they percieve they need. Their needs are dependant upon what their truth is. Truth is probably their first objective. Communication and the quest for "truth compliance" probably tops the list as well.



3. What do they look like?

Exactly what people have been saying. Life does not look the same on this planet, so why should i attempt to generalize what "they" look like? Humans don't even know how diverse life is on earth yet. This is like asking me what earthlings look like. If i were to discribe an octopuss or sea urchant, would i be wrong in my description? I'm not dodging the question. I'm saying that the question is under-developed.



Also I would like to point out that just because someone famous thinks ufos doesn't mean s/he believes in an global alien conspiracy.


depends upon how one interprets the word "conspiracy".
The word conspiracy comes from:
CON = with/together
Spira = To Breath.

So, the word "conspiracy" means to breath together.



That life is controlling everything we do ................................... ?


without life other than you, what would you compare your knowledge to?

Life may not be controlling everything we do, but it is influencing everything we do, everything we witness, and all experiences we accumilate.

[edit on 18-12-2006 by Esoteric Teacher]



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 08:43 PM
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Actually, I'm another that would like something "tangible". I am open though.

However, I'm a little skeptical that you can claim over and over that there's this global alien conspiracy, but are unable to substantiate it without even the tiniest smidgen of evidence.

I challenge you, Esoteric Teacher, to provide something solid and tangible to substantiate your claims. If it is as large as you are making it out to be, there should be mounds of video evidence, material & physical evidence, plenty of 1st hand accounts, and thousands of eyewitnesses.

Give me 2 of each, and I'll be swayed enough to investigate it myself.



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 08:51 PM
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I'm not sure if you noticed, but all my questions did have question marks. Anyways, Im happy that you tried to answer the questions this time. Ill let you slide on 2 and 3, but on the first question you say

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
1. What is your proof of their being an global alien conpsiracy?
Language. Human behavior. History. Truth.


Please Elaborate.


Also,

www.dictionary.com
con·spir·a·cy /kənˈspɪrəsi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhn-spir-uh-see] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -cies.
1. the act of conspiring.
2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.
4. Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.


[edit on 18-12-2006 by wswbkbroiler]



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 09:22 PM
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Originally posted by wswbkbroiler
I'm not sure if you noticed, but all my questions did have question marks.


Yours did. you are correct. the "questions" you said i had ignored were not questions. They were statements, hence the periods at the ends of the sentences.



Anyways, Im happy that you tried to answer the questions this time.


I'm glad you are happy.



Ill let you slide on 2 and 3,


Thanks.


but on the first question you say

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
1. What is your proof of their being an global alien conpsiracy?
Language. Human behavior. History. Truth.


Please Elaborate.


I will elaborate in part shortly. I say "in part" because i am ignorant in regards to knowing all languages, and all words within them. I say "in part" because human behavior can be a complex subject at times, as people take it personnally, even if it is not always intended to be. I say "in part" to history, because history is also a rather large quantity of information. And i say truth, because the proof you seek exists within all catagories, but i am sure there is truth in "Language, human behavior, and history."


Also,

www.dictionary.com
con·spir·a·cy /kənˈspɪrəsi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhn-spir-uh-see] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -cies.
1. the act of conspiring.
2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.
4. Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.



That is what "they" say is the definition, you are not mistaken. However, prior to definitions 1 through 5 there was a definition that came before them:
Source/Link:
encarta.msn.com...



[14th century. Via French < Latin conspirare, literally "breathe together" < spirare "breathe"]


I don't offer up this external source to show how i'm right and you are wrong. Because obviously, you are right. And, so was i. It would seem that we can both be correct. I offer the "Breath Together" quote only to show that i did not give you false information.

I will address accordingly some "elaboration" as to what it is i was refering to with regards to your first question, i promise.

thanks,
john



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 09:53 PM
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Originally posted by superpaul55
This is not a game of politics, answer the questions:

1)What is the aim of the global conspriacy and on what date will it be complete.

2)Where are the aliens.

3)In what form are the aliens.


How is anyone on this forum supposed to a) know the answers to these questions and b) provide proof? The point about conspiracies is that there are very, very few on the inside, and they don't talk about it. Anyone who pops up with answers to these questions, is suspect, and rightly so.

You're asking pointless and unreasonable questions.

Better questions might be, "if there were a conspiracy, what might be indicators that it exists?" "Who might be involved in such a conspiracy?"

For example, a while ago, I found an article about the TR-3B, which claimed that this is a massive triangular aeroform developed from retroengineered technology by the US military-industrial complex. Supposedly, it's the source of many "flying triangle" sightings, most notably the ones in Belgium.

According to the article, one of the innovations implemented in this craft is its advanced stealth characteristics, which can render it optically invisible due to its skin having a coating using quasicrystal technology. So I went looking for information about quasicrystals, and what I noticed was that there was some, a very little, available, but almost nothing in the public domain. It looked as though this were a promising and interesting area of research, yet no-one seemed to be doing anything with it. In particular there ws almost nothing about the uses to which quasicrystals might be put, which is decidedly odd.

I don't treat it as fact, but it is at least interesting that this technology, as quoted in the article, exists, and that the research seems to peter out without being disparaged as a dead-end. This makes me think that the possibility that quasicrystal research is indeed being carried on - just not anywhere public.

It's like the old Sherlock Holmes thing of the dog in the night time. The canine concerned didn't bark when it should have. Without any good reason, quasicrystal research is just at avery superficial level. Not proof, but definitely odd.

The same, only more so, goes for the field of electrogravitics, which was hailed as the way to make our aircraft fly like the saucers back in the '50s, but then just disappears... except there are some companies still working on it, one of which has offices in Las Vegas, within sight of the airport from which the Janet flights service Groom Lake.

There is something going on, imo, but the disinfo put out produces a (quite intentional) signal/noise problem. Some people commit themselves to one theory that takes everything put out as literally true. I'm more cautious, and si I take everything with a pinch of salt and try yo find "best fit" patterns in the data while not taking any of it as necessarily true... bearing in mond that the most common disinfo technique is to take a true fact and wrap it in outlandish lies to make it seem ludicrous.

I think it;s also the case that the "secret project" is not, if you will, monolithic: in other words, there are factions and individuals who favour disclosure, and others that don't. This can explain the ability of some people to come forward and say stuff. These people, it seems to me, are often disinfo conduits, witting or otherwise.

But you want drama. You want a fight with the paranoids, or someone to agree with you, rather than to research for yourself or learn. This much is clear from your previous posts. I'm sure posters here will oblige you.



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 09:59 PM
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Originally posted by superpaul55
Esoteric, you are not going to get me off point. Please answer the three questions:

1)What is the aim of the global conspriacy and on what date will it be complete.

2)Where are the aliens.

3)In what form are the aliens.


If anyone truly had the answers to those specific questions, we would not need discussion forums such as this one.


Or is it just me, who sees it this way?



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 10:14 PM
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Esoteric Teacher.. If you are trying to impart some kind of wisdom, what is the point of talking over those you are trying to teach? It is obvious to anyone paying attention that your vocabulary is extensive, but a good teacher is able to structure his lessons to the individuals he is trying to reach.

Feigning ignorance when point blank questions are asked will not further the debate, and in truth do nothing more than confuse the point. It is clear that your answers are not being seen as something constructive to the OP, so maybe you should re-examine your approach.



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 10:15 PM
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So rich,to you, this is reasonable:

(Basic Summary)

superpaul55: I dont believe it
Esoteric Teacher: I believe, therefore it is.
superpaul55: Prove it.
rich23: Its pointless and unreasonable to ask him to prove it


The pointless and unreasonable part is to believe without reasonable proof. Unless you're a religious zealot, then you can get away with it


Maybe "Believer Syndrome" is the new millennium's religious cult. Never know...



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by wswbkbroiler
I'm not sure if you noticed, but all my questions did have question marks. Anyways, Im happy that you tried to answer the questions this time. Ill let you slide on 2 and 3, but on the first question you say

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
1. What is your proof of their being an global alien conpsiracy?
Language. Human behavior. History. Truth.


Please Elaborate.


Language:
Please review this thread in its entirety at your convenience, and judge the material accordingly:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

How many "coincidences" need to accumilate before the "coincidences" are something more than coincidences?
The bible. What emotional response did the word "bible" just initiate within your mind? Your first impression may determine what information your conscious mind is prepared to take in.
Has anyone you known ever thought to apply the verses of the bible to the words and verses in the bible? Perhaps you have heard of "the bible code"? Perhaps not. If such a code exists, then i believe whole heartedly that the bible would have to be the key to the code as well. Either that or the author(s) of the bible are hypocrits. Before you decide there is no justification for my claims, i already have thousands of examples of what it is i am trying to convey. And, if you are not consciously aware of what your subconscious is truly doing, then ask yourself honestly if you are equiped to discount it all together, as purely "coincidence" which means nothing.

** It is not my intentions to say that the bible is the only source of pattern recognition which is integrated into our subconscious minds, i am merely using the bible as a reference source. I see truth in all faiths, and i am not preaching one faith over the rest of them. Personnally, i believe there is truth in all of them, but this is not the point i'm trying to convey with regards to the "language" portion of my response.

The bible says:
"Judge not lest thee be judged."

And yet the bible judges. So, we have the authority to judge the bible, since it does pass judgment on us, right? But what do we judge the bible by? It is just words, right? The bible says "I am the word". Perhaps what was meant was "i am the words".

The bible says:
"We are currently in the domain of Satan/Lucifer" (versions differ).
But, doesn't "Satan" rule in hell? The bible also says that everything in hell is opposite that of the kingdom of heaven.

So, what does this mean we could do to the words? Reverse them. Reverse the syllables, or the sequence of the letters.

The bible says:
"The mind of a child shall direct them"
If we apply this to language, then perhaps we should spell the word out phonetically, not the way we have been taught, but instead like a child would spell it out, phonetically.

So, we have just 2 rules from the bible. Let's see what happens with a few examples from applying these rules to words in the bible, and in everyday life:

This is what i will do with the following examples:
1) I will spell the word/phrase out phonetically.
2) I will reverse (mirror image) the syllables, or the words.

Example #1:
What was the name of the Garden of Paradise?
It is pronounced: EDUN
EDUN [mirror] NUDE
do you see a commonality here?

Example #2:
"My Holy"
phonetically: "MI HOLE"
MIHOLE [mirror] ELOHIM (* "Elohim" is the 3rd word in the bible, and is a word meaning "god" in plurality form)
do you see a commonality here?

Example #3:
What about conspiracy? The "ALL SEEING EYE" and the "NWO" that secret society buffs believe in? Well, first let me say that plants do not seem to have eyes. Animals do, though.
The phrase: "Own it animal eye"
phonetically: "Own it animul i"
OWNITANIMULI [mirror] ILUMINATIOWN = ILLUMINATI NWO ???do you see a commonality here?

Example #4:
SEED DNA BRIDE
phonetically we remove the silent "e" in "bride":
seed dna brid [mirror] bird and bees
do you see a commonality here?

Example #5:
"SEE I FART"
"C I FART" (See = C)
CIFART [mirror] TRAFIC = TRAFFIC
do you see a commonality here?

Who wrote first about the "Tower of Babyl"? Moses. Where did Moses come from? Egypt. What is the biggest building in Egypt? The "Great Pyramid". Who is given credit for the building of the Great Pyramid?
KUFU CHEOPS (two names, supposedly the same pharaoh)
Kufu Cheops.
reverse the syllables and:
KUF [mirror] (bad word that means cuff backwards)
U=U
CHEOPS [mirror] SPOECH
Kufu Cheops with silly bull (*olay)
turned around = F.U. Spoech (FU Speach?)

I have about a hundred or so examples of this in the thread link i supplied, and more than 10,000 more examples. coincidence?
I must concede: Perhaps it is mere coincidence.

But when you were 2 years old, what your mind was saying was:
Let me play with Toy.
Keywords. why do we need "me" in the sentence? who else is a 2 year old going to share with so readily?
Let play with Toy
keywords. why do we need the "play with" in the sentence. what else does one do with a toy, if not play with it?
"Let Toy" is the fundamental basis of a 2 year olds psychi, other than the basics of food, etc.
Let Toy = Toy Let = Toilette ?? Perhaps a tool to generate preferred behavior? A tool to influence a child's actions and behaviors?
perhaps, and perhaps it is merely a coincidence.

Perhaps it is mere coincidence that a lot of kids are more worried
about their looks when they are attending skool?


This is a very small fraction of why i said "language" in regards to your question.

My premise for doing this, and finding tens of thousands of "coincidences" was by applying the verses of the bible to verses in the bible, and what i found was that i was getting other verses from the bible, and other key words. But, you can surely discount this as merely "coincidence", because there is no proof otherwise. Just alot of "coincidences".

Trinity = 3
911 = Distress call.

911 Trinity = 9113

9 1 13.

9th letter of the "all fib bet" is: I
1st letter of the "all fib bet" is: A
13th letter of the "all fib bet" is: M

911 Trinity = 9113 = "I AM". The name supplied to Moses in response to his question to "God"

What does your opinion tell you this means?

proof of coincidence?
proof of conspiracy?
proof of God?
Proof of "Free Will", and "Reasonable Doubt"?

COMMUNICATION IS KEY

again, just the tip of the iceburg in regards to how many "coincidences" exist. But, of course, this is not proof. But, this does support why i answered with "language".

I will elaborate more later as to why i answered with "human behavior and History".

Thanks,
john



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 10:41 PM
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And on that note, I'm done w/ this thread.

Thanks everybody *waves*



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 10:54 PM
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Originally posted by HankMcCoy
Esoteric Teacher.. If you are trying to impart some kind of wisdom, what is the point of talking over those you are trying to teach? It is obvious to anyone paying attention that your vocabulary is extensive, but a good teacher is able to structure his lessons to the individuals he is trying to reach.


I agree, wholeheartedly.



Feigning ignorance when point blank questions are asked will not further the debate, and in truth do nothing more than confuse the point.


There is no debate until he is confused about his pre-accepted "FACT" that no evidence exists. If it is already determined that there is no evidence, and this is accepted as fact, how can it be called a debate? How can a debate exist when one party refuses to accept any evidence as fact?



It is clear that your answers are not being seen as something constructive to the OP, so maybe you should re-examine your approach.


I admit you may indeed be right. However, i still do not believe you have an effective "debate" when one side says: " It is a fact that no evidence exists".

Since it was his opinion that was standing in the way of an effective debate, because it was his opinion that said "the fact is there is no proof", then i chose to defuse his opinion.

I made the choice to "confuse" his opinion. How else was i suppose to attempt to fullfill his wish?

The last part of this thread's opening post said "change my mind". Yet, that mind would not accept that any evidence existed. Not only would that mind not accept that any evidence existed, but that mind knew it was a fact that no evidence existed. And without confusion as a tool, then how should i confront a fact? I believe it is a pre-requisite to confuse a fact before that fact is no longer a fact.

You believe the sky is blue? Without confusing you, how can i change your mind?

Edit to add:
HankMcCoy, i hear what you are saying, and i agree. i hope my response helps you understand my perspective of why i chose to take the route i did. But, this does not mean that i am not always re-evaluating my approach.

Thanks,
john

[edit on 18-12-2006 by Esoteric Teacher]



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 11:02 PM
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Paul55,
Just a tiny little comment, nothing elaborate.
To some some point I agree with you that there is a "hysteria" concerning the conspiracy theory. A "fundamentalist" approach that as all fundamentalism will exclude contrary opinions.
Are we familiar with Hans Christian Andersen's " The Emperors new clothes".
This applies to both sides of the discussion.
We are conditioned to see what we see.

Is there a conspiracy?. I can not honestly say yes, BUT I wish there was because then I could avoid blaming humanity for it's absolute stupidity.

I do know, I will not use the term believe as it implies faith, believing in it's original meaning did not require "proof", the context has been twisted in modern use .
So I know out of personal experience. It is not a religious quest for me to engage others in "the truth out there". And frankly I find "earthly" life is all the challenge I could ask for.

WIS



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 11:11 PM
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Belief? What is belief? Belief is internal, not connected to facts, necessarily.

I have seen the NASA films. I have taken my own shots of "sylphs" hovering over volcanos, many many times. They are not lifeforms that are recognizable, that have a skin and hair and a voice; but they are lifeforms nonetheless. And they fit the thousands and thousands of reports of self-lit orbs that have flooded every nation.

How can anybody, NOT REALIZE there's Life out there? How can anybody stay buried in denials and wishes?

Are there Greys and Tall Greys and Tall Nordics and blahdeblahdeblah? I dunno. Never met one. I have pictures tho.

These two guys are 33d degree Masons. Are they human? God KNOWS.





Is the USSA totally paranoid for absolutely NO REASON? Well, yeah; they're crazy. But are they THAT CRAZY, being as how we have a sixty-year-history of interaction with ETs?

How much proof do you need in order to believe something?

That's my question. What will it take for Disclosure to be real, and work out and not scare people into uproar?

I would very much like for the cards to be placed on the table, and to know the truth, finally and for all time. I'm just so tired of being pandered and condescended to.

Em


[edit on 18-12-2006 by EmilyCragg]



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 11:34 PM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

Originally posted by wswbkbroiler

1. What is your proof of their being an global alien conpsiracy?
Language. Human behavior. History. Truth.


Please Elaborate.


History:

I say history for a VAST number of reasons. I flipped a few coins and decided upon this approach to the "history" portion of my answer:

Imagine a child is born. The child never walks, just crawls.
the second birthday passes . ..... the child has never stood, just crawls.
the third birthday passes ..... still the child has never stood, just crawls.
the fourth birthday passes ....still the child has never stood, just crawls.
the fifth birthday ..... .. . .. . still the child has never stood, just crawls.
the sixth birthday ...... .. . .. still the child has never stood, just crawls.
the seventh birthday .......... still the child has never stood, just crawls.

Now the child has never stood up on his feet. The child has never taken one step. the child has never walked.

now, 2 minutes after the child turns 7 years old he stands up on his feet for the first time.

20 seconds after that the child has broken all long distance world records for running.

Is this possible, or even plausible?

Can a child be born, and never stand up on two feet for the first 7 years, then when he does stand up, within 20 seconds own the world record for running marathons?

Is this possible, or even plausible?

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
the child is a metaphor for the human race.

clay tablets from ancient Babylon (iraq) dated to 5,700 b.c. say that humanity was utilizing beasts of burden and wheeled carts to get from point A to point B.

let's fast forward through humanity's history to 7,600 years later ......

The year is now 1900 a.d.. And, over 99% of the planet is still utilizing beasts of burden (horse/ox drawn carriages) to get from point A to point B.

We now have a written and recorded history that spands almost 8,000 years of humanity using beasts of burden to travel.

let's move forward 2 years to 1902. The world is introduced to the mass production of automobiles with Ford's Model-T.

67 years later man is walking on the moon.

Summary:
5,700 b.c. to 1902 a.d = 7,602 years of humanity using animals for transportation.

1902 through 1969 = 67 years from the mass production of cars to humanity walking on the moon.

Is this possible, or even plausible?

Can a child be born, and never stand up on two feet for the first 7 years, then when he does stand up, within 20 seconds own the world record for running marathons?

Is this possible, or even plausible?

[edit on 18-12-2006 by Esoteric Teacher]



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 11:52 PM
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Emily Dear, if you wish to have a long life on this board you may consider being less aggressive and self contradictory.
Just a little advice.
Have a great stay.
WIS



posted on Dec, 19 2006 @ 12:24 AM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

Summary:
5,700 b.c. to 1902 a.d = 7,602 years of humanity using animals for transportation.

1902 through 1969 = 67 years from the mass production of cars to humanity walking on the moon.

Is this possible, or even plausible?

[edit on 18-12-2006 by Esoteric Teacher]



That indeed is very interesting. I suggest you read "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn if you haven't already.

[edit on 19/12/2006 by Gunney]



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