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Believer Syndrome.

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posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 05:00 PM
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my powers of enlightenment reveals to me that.......




you're a troll.


edited: what other purpose does your thread have then to cause an argument?

it's quite obvious what you are trying to do.



Someone should make a thread called, troll syndrome.

[edit on 17-12-2006 by selfless]




posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 05:06 PM
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To me, there is simply more evidence supporting UFOlogy than against it.

The millions of sightings, videos and photos can't all just be 'atmospheric conditions','weather balloons' or 'hoaxes'.

I don't know personally whether it is little green men or just a secret test project, but there is certainly some unidentified craft getting around.



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 05:12 PM
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Dear observe50:

You recomend I "OBSERVE", well thats exactly what I did, and unfortunately I saw nothing to do with global alien conspiracies.

You prove my point perfectly -

"When the Grey's say that Humans are a stupid species".
This is an example of you quoting something to be fact which IN FACT is not fact, and you believing you are intellectually superior to everyone else, because of course - you understand "the greys". I am sick of believers attempting to talk down to me. So how did you come about this infomation, go for a coffee on the Moon?

"wake up yourself and realize what is happening".
What is happening? Tell me exactly what you believe! Believers are fast enough to attempt to discredit skeptics, but as soon as asked to voice their beliefs they just post some naff links to paranoic web sites. Tell me exactly what you believe.

Oh and of course, observe50, please inform "the greys" that I wasn't insulted when they called the human race stupid. I wouldn't want to start an interplanetary war.



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 05:20 PM
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look, people say things on here that are caused by what they experienced for them selves and it forms an opinion for them to share with others but it doesn't mean that they will tell you in details every time they post on a thread why they think the way they do, that would take forever.


You on the other hand don't have to agree with anyone, you can just ignore them if you do not agree with them. it's that simple, there is no need for this thread it will only cause arguments by a delusional concept of superiority.

NO ONE IS SUPERIOR TO ANYONE ELSE.

Do not let anything someone says make you feel like you are less superior just because you do not agree with that person... im sure the person who voices his opinion did not intend to be superior to you.


It's fine that you don't believe in unidentified flying objects but just because you don't, don't try to force your views of none existing ufo's on others if you don't want ufo believers to force their views on you.



This thread was a waste of time this is just my opinion, don't get offended.



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 05:39 PM
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The "delusional concept of superiority" is actually exactly what I am trying to point out. These UFO believers think they know something that everyone else, when in fact they don't. Its ok to come on here and accuse someone of working for the government as a "disinfomation agent", but come on here and accuse someone of being wrong and you are shunned.

This thread was and is not a waste of time, you come on this site to 'boost up' your belief basically and enter your fanatsy reality, and when you see something that contradicts this fantasy, you put it down - just as everyone else has. This thread is almost the only ounce of reality around here. the reason people don't give me conclusive proof is not due to the fact "it would take forever", it is because they don't have anything.

I propose that George Bush is actually the Duracell Rabbit. Why do you not know this - the Government runs disinfomation.

The Duracell Rabbit has ambitions to start the Fourth Reich. Why do you not know this?

I think you might get the point.



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 05:55 PM
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the point that i get is that i don't get offended by anyone elses views because it's their views and not mine.

but you seem to get offended because someone else doesn't view it the same way as you do, this is why this thread is a waste of time it seems you just want others to view it the way you do and let skeptism rule all.


Well i got news for you, it's not the way it works.


if you don't agree with something don't let it bother you, it's as simple as that.


You can not believe in ufo's all you want buddy and it won't bother me for a second.



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 05:57 PM
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oh and btw when i said delusional concept of superiority, i meant it in the way that it only exist if you let it exist, just ignore it, it doesn't exist.


the concept will only exist if you let it bother you.



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 06:14 PM
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Are you guys/gals going to really get all uptight like this????
To those of us who are just viewing the thread, it's quite funny to read all the back and forth animosity towards your two schools of thought. It is not even really on topic, just seems to be that each side generally despises the other.
Also, before anybody jumps on the "troll" bandwagon, I am simply trying to follow an intense but topic related thread here................so come on, stop with the, "lights go out, knives come out", stuff.
ATS is about intelligent people that are to be critical thinkers and, deny ignorance!

Peace from me, and I am sure I'll get flamed for this too, but peace anyway........Mondogiwa



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 06:17 PM
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peace to you too as well my friend.



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 06:22 PM
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My opinion because I can obviously be called a "hard believer" is that yes, I am right.

Because of this, if someone disagrees after i've supplied information- they're either an idiot, disinfo agent, or whatever name you want to make a synonym with "wrong."

This is completely natural. You can apply your theory to literally any subject when it comes to knowledge. Cooking, Science, Fashion, Advice, etc.

I don't know how to convince you because the possibilities are endless. Maybe this will help; do you remember being a you child and arguing with other people around you about trivial stupid stuff? I once had an argument with a boy who was 1 year younger than me about how many fingers equated 3. He lifted up 4 fingers, and said it was 3. That was the first time this life I learned some people are stupid.

The same goes here, except we're all grown up now. Believe what you want, but this doesn't belong in the UFO/Alien forum because this theory of behavior can be applied to any subject where the stakes are high.

Edit: Whenever analyzing a subject that is foreign to you, try to jump into the reality of the other person. For instance, I think most UFO researchers/experts/agents can agree that not only have they received negative backlash, but there are billion dollar industries that rely on UFO information being not credible to the masses. Because of this, most have seen plenty of people with counter-intention to their said goals: Deny Ignorance. What is denying ignorance? Freeing truth. If you want truth to be suppressed, you are supplying ignorance. If someone acts ignorant or crass to the subject, then expect the UFO-believer to strap up the verbal body armour and get ready for battle.


[edit on 17-12-2006 by jaguarmike]



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by selfless
peace to you too as well my friend.


Grazie mille to you selfess, was just trying to point out that the original thread topic had gotten lost, but believe me there are people who are on chat right now who are watching this thread and laughing at all the banter, myself included and you may see some others who chime in soon.................Peace again everybody...I want to see this get back on the intensity since now I am off topic as well!!!

Mondo



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 06:25 PM
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I dont think for one second i am more intelligent than any other person on this planet. I believe we are all super intelligent beings however due to the help of technology we choose to use less of our brain. I believe we are all capable of so much more we just dont know how to unlock it.

I however do believe in Aliens but only because of a incident where i had a classic triangular shape craft hover literally 100 foot above me when i was 15. Also this craft seemed to follow my every step until it shot off at incredible speed. That and another craft whilst i was based in the Jordanian desert that looked like a cigar shaped white light that sped across my arcs of vision one night in the blink of an eye, Stopped dead for a few seconds as if observing then went straight up. Both incidents were witnessed by someone else with me.

So yeah i guess i believe in aliens but by no means believe i am superior to anyone else on here



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 06:29 PM
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Originally posted by selfless
oh and btw when i said delusional concept of superiority, i meant it in the way that it only exist if you let it exist, just ignore it, it doesn't exist.


the concept will only exist if you let it bother you.


Speaking of "believer syndrome", heres a guy named "selfless" being a total jerk and telling people how to act.



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 07:16 PM
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How sad, I really think you are being quite rude.

When a person tells you that they have been an experiencer all there life and they try to share with you there experiences and what they have been shown or told and your only thought is they are lying, making it up or acting as if they are superior is your hang up.

I never said you had to believe a word I wrote and what I write about the Grey's is what I know because it is what I have experienced for myself and I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears. Maybe if you thought about what I wrote about them you would learn something even if it sounds funky.

For myself I consider no one on this Earth stupid and yes I do know what is what. I will suggest again maybe you should devote more time with your observance, it will come to you.

At one time what people said made me feel small and ashamed but I have grown and realized it isn't me denying ignorance.

I'm not being superior I am sharing and telling you they are here and they are here in mass and they are in the deepest of our waters. I am telling you if they want you they will come and get you and there is nothing you can do because they can do whatever they want. You can yell, scream and I shake my head when people write they will go away. They don't go away they just use more control that you may not be aware of.

You have no idea of the caccoon you live in and all I can say is you better watch out, you better not cry, better not pout, I'm telling you why, Grey's beings are observing right now.


Happy Holidays to you.


[edit on 17-12-2006 by observe50]



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 07:49 PM
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It's funny you could replace the word(s) ufo/aliens with the word god in this entire thread and it would still make perfect sense.


Originally posted by jaguarmike
What is denying ignorance? Freeing truth. If you want truth to be suppressed, you are supplying ignorance. If someone acts ignorant or crass to the subject, then expect the UFO-believer to strap up the verbal body armour and get ready for battle.
[edit on 17-12-2006 by jaguarmike]


Propogating false evidence whether you are aware of it or not is the same as suppressing truth. The fact is that a lot of skeptics myself included actually believe that aliens exhist and believe in the possibility that they are visiting this unfair planet of ours. Yet we do not want to have fake or weak evidence pollute the search for real proof. There in lies the problems between believers and skeptics. Believers are just that believers, some believe because they are personal witnesses to something extraordinary and thats fine but most of them understand that they cannot prove what they say and they dont force it onto others. I would never believe someone that claims to of seen something and then flames the first skeptic, never. The other believers in my opinion are those that see all of the evidence presented on the net and on this site (with the exception to those that are privy to actual sources).

The problem is what constitutes evidence? I can tell you from my point of view that video's on youtube and pictures on obscure websites to do not, allow me to repeat, do not alone constitute proof or even real evidence. Instead of saying is the following video fake or real we should be saying, does anyone know where this video was taken? When was it taken? Who took it? Is there any other witnesses to corroborate the video? Are there any other videos of the same object from a different perspective? If you find evidence that supports all of those questions then you can bet you will turn this skeptic into a believer.

I would also like to address the OP, there are some real Gems out there and even on this site. So we shouldn't put every believer down, even though the internet is flooded with poor evidence it doesnt mean there isnt real proof to be found around here somewhere. Ive read some really compelling stories but at the moment they remain that, just stories.

In summary there is an aweful lot of extremism on both sides of the issue and the sooner we can all calm down just a bit the real work can begin. Maybe then we can start looking at this thing from a scientific point of view.

I would like to finish my post by asking a question to the community. Is it possible, or even probable that some of the websites and so called experts in the ufology community could possibly be using the subject to sell books and ufo compilation dvd's on the internet? If so how do you think this effects the community?



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 07:55 PM
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Without a doubt JackJuice....without a doubt.

In fact - there may be so many people looking to make a quick buck off of such a sensational subject that it further discredits actual experiencers.



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 08:19 PM
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Originally posted by Gunney

Originally posted by selfless
oh and btw when i said delusional concept of superiority, i meant it in the way that it only exist if you let it exist, just ignore it, it doesn't exist.


the concept will only exist if you let it bother you.


Speaking of "believer syndrome", heres a guy named "selfless" being a total jerk and telling people how to act.




Well yeah i said not to let anything bother you and i think that's a good advice you see im gonna use my own advice and not let you bother me :0



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 07:43 AM
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There is a point to this thread. It is me trying to "deny my ignorance", this implies that people who do not agree with most of the outlandish claims on this site are "ignorant". You guys sitting around here telling people how they just simply don't understand the conspiracies around them.

I say why can you not see the Duracell Rabbit is taking over the world? Its just obvious, you can see all the disinfomation (anything that opposes my view) in the media and the politicians disagree (not because its crap of course, because its a cover up!). I mean guys its just obvious isn't it!

"That was the first time this life I learned some people are stupid."

Observe50, I am sure you have had "personal experiences" with the greys, you have really put me on edge because "the grey beings are observing me right now", this is typical paranoia. Why are they observing me then, do they want to probe my ass or some other alien cliche? You are simply paranoid, you have no proof. However the Duracell Rabbit is completely different of course, I mean can't you guys see it? It is there. I have seen it with my own eyes.

Thanks for "denying my ignorance". Basically alot of people are crackpots, who will happily voice their bizzare beliefs on an interent forum but in real life would never dare voice their beliefs - not because the government would come after them, because it would make them stupid for the simple reason that it is.

Beware guys the Duracell Rabbit is coming.



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 07:57 AM
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I have recently posted a thread about how certain kinds of skepticism, what I would call "aggressive skepticism" damage scientific progress. Click on the last link in my signature to see for yourself. There is a fascinating saga of how "skepticism" held up scientific progress for around 150 years. The way in which bats navigate was deduced through experiment, but because people couldn't understand (or hear) ultrasound, the explanation was "debunked" and a theory proposed - without any kind of experimental proof to back it up - that lasted for almost a century and a half.

So much of what "superpaul55" has posted applies to the "skeptical" camp.


Originally posted by superpaul55

The believer [in skepticism] suffers from a number of issues:

1) He believes himself to be mentally superior to most, this is why they talk of 'open mindedness' and 'enlightenment', they feel they have the talent to bring us up to their level of thought at which point of course we will finally realise that aliens exist and run our government, no proof is needed, its just obvious when you are that intelligent and can 'see throught the fog of deception. No proof is required.


Let's rewrite this:

1) He believes himself to be mentally superior to most, this is why they talk of 'scientific method' and 'proof', they feel they have the talent to bring us up to their level of thought at which point of course we will finally realise that aliens/the paranormal/whatever are impossible, no proof is needed, its just obvious when you are that intelligent and can 'see throught the fog of deception. No proof is required.


2) Everything that opposes his belief can be put down to either the stupidity of the human race or disinfomation agents, most humans are simply the result of 'government mind control' - which most call education. They view the human race as a production chain, but of course only they can see this due to their supreme intellect. Nothing can prove the disinfomation agents exist and that we are all purposely stupid, its just obvious, isn't it. No proof required.


Again:

2) Everything that opposes his belief can be put down to either the stupidity of the human race or fakers, most humans are simply the result of inadequate education... but of course only they can see this due to their supreme intellect. Nothing can prove the fakers exist and that we are all purposely stupid, its just obvious, isn't it. No proof required.

If you look at the thread I started on UFOs and the paranormal and disinformation, you will note that ad hominem attacks are the common coin of the skeptics and debunkers. When confronted with actual evidence that, for example, the paranormal exists, they retreat behind criticisms of experimental protocol that on closer inspection have no foundation.

For these people, scientific laws are just that: rigid laws to which the universe must adhere, rather than attempts to explain and predict data made by people with only a couple of hundred years' collective experience in what we laughingly call "science" to draw on. One might draw all kinds of psychological inferences about why these people are so desperate for security that they require absolutes to cling to... but why bother?

The point is that the skeptics confuse the map with the territory, as Korzybski so often demonstrated.


What I ask from someone on this forum is for them to explain why they believe there are aliens on this planet and there is a global conspiracy, not a fury of links to paranoics web pages. Why do YOU believe it.

Maybe someone can make me change my mind.


I doubt very much that I will be able to make you change your mind. Skeptics have a habit of ruling out what others consider evidence, and of demanding "proof", when what they really mean is "evidence" Charles Fort was particularly adept at mining this seam of "damned" evidence - things that must have been made up because they can't have happened, therefore all the people who have seen these things must be delusional.

It's kind of insulting, really.

And it misunderstands the nature of scientific proof. Since the publication of Karl Popper's The Logic of Scientific Discovery in the sixties, the accepted argument has been that you cannot prove theories, you can only disprove them.

However, here's why I believe that aliens exist and have come to this planet.

Historical Overview

It's an idea whose time has come. This probably sounds fatuous, but when you look at the history of how Western man views the universe and his place in it, you can see a gradual progression. First, the Earth was the centre of the Universe, and everything revolved around it. This is the obvious, the natural conclusion to draw when you look up at the night sky and notice that the stars move, and that during the daytime, the sun moves across the heavens.

Galileo was tortured by the skeptics of his day for daring to suggest otherwise. We've come on a little bit from that, but if you look at what happened to Wilhelm Reich, you'll see that we haven't come that far.

Then, the Sun was the centre of the universe... but that didn't last long. The cracks in the anthropocentric view were too big to be papered over for long.

At the start of the 20th century, the debate was, "how did life start"? It is of note that despite many years of trying, we haven't been able to create life in the laboratory. Some people might start to think that perhaps we're missing something, but there are still skeptics clinging to the belief that if we just wait long enough, we could create life with a mixture of the primordial soup and lightning. Good luck.

What is beginning to emerge is that life is everywhere. Nobel winner Chandra Wickramsinghe and Astronomer Royal Fred Hoyle suggested that this was the case back in the eighties, and were roundly criticised by the establishment for saying so. Evidence mounts to prove them correct, but the bar is raised high and the skeptics rally behind the cry of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" - not Carl Sagan's finest moment, imo. We'll come back to him.

So we can see a trend away from the anthropocentric view. We can also see a trend away from regarding things as "impossible" - like travelling faster than light, obviously a sine qua non for interstellar travel.

The Drake "equation" (I prefer the term "formula" myself, because it at least implies that this is a recipe of guesswork) suggests that there are many civilisations out there... but where are they?

Back to the theory of bats' navigation that held things up for 150 years: I would suggest that a direct parallel to this is the theory of pulsars.

External evidence

When the first pulsar was discovered, it was given the acronym "LGM-1", for "little green men", because the Joderell Bank people really thought they'd found life. It was only when they'd decided to publish in Nature that they thought, hang on, we'd better have a "scientific" explanation for this.

Since then, the observed characteristics of pulsars suggest very strongly that at least some of these are artificial objects, and certainly the physical model that purports to explain them looks increasingly weak. There is an excellent book on this called The Talk of the Galaxy by Paul LaViolette which goes into considerable detail on this.

It's quite a case study of how data that contradicts an established model is routinely ignored.

Other evidence

The history and rituals of the Dogon tribe in Africa suggest that they were, as their legends maintain, visited by extraterrestrials from Sirius. For example they know that Sirius is actually a triple star system, with the bright visible star, a much smaller white dwarf, and a "dark companion". Facts emerging since the publication of "The Sirius Mystery" in the seventies by Robert Temple confirm this. Further, the Dogon (way ahead of the allegedly "civilised" Western world, knew that the solar system was heliocentric, and their symbols for particular planets reveal knowledge only a telescope would show - and they had no telescopes. For example, their symbol for Saturn is a dot with a ring around it, and for Jupiter, a dot with four smaller dots (corresponding to the "Copernican" moons).

Then there's all the reports, all the photographs, all the video footage.

But all of that is faked, of course, in the world of the skeptics.

I would say that some is faked, some isn't. And if even a tiny proportion of the avalanche of stuff out there ISN'T faked, then the skeptics have a problem.

I'm running out of room, time and energy. But if you want to know why I think there's a cover-up, a good place to start is Richard M Dolan's wonderful UFOs and the National Security State, which uses publicly available documents and a keen sense of history to build a convincing picture that such a cover-up exists. This is a solid piece of scholarship written by an academic historian who did his Master's at Cambridge - a place not known for sheltering fools.

[edit on 18-12-2006 by rich23]



posted on Dec, 18 2006 @ 08:26 AM
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Originally posted by rich23
stuff noone read


Okay, now say what you REALLY mean. Just try it in two or three sentences, we're smart, we can fill in the blanks.



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